Patience With Young Players

[Larrys13]

I don't know how many of you have been reading the NHL99 articles in the Athletic, a series that discusses the top 99 NHL players in the post expansion era (99 as everyone knows Gretzky s #1). Today's article was about Jean Ratelle, rated at #70.

The thing about Ratelle is this: it took him seemingly forever to establish himself as, first an NHL player, and then the star he eventually became. Take a look at his stats: he was repeatedly returned to the AHL (the Ranger farm team was the Baltimore Clippers). It wasn't until he was 25 that he became a regular and 27 until he became a star (I know that in today's game players reach their peak earlier).

I was a young, teenage Ranger fan in the early 1960s and vividly having a discussion with a friend in a high school gym class, complaining that, for all his obvious potential, that Ratelle couldn't put the puck in the ocean while standing on the beach.

If the hockey boards had existed back in those prehistoric days, I have no doubt that many (probably including me) would have been ready to write him off and willing to trade him.

Yes, I know, the game has changed and changed radically since the last days of the Original Six (and changed for the better). And, I know every player is different and you cannot and should not think that one example from the past should apply to everyone in the present or future.

But surely, Ratelle, a world class, elite, HOFer, should serve as a cautionary tale whenever we become frustrated with the lack of progress our younger players are showing. Sometimes, we just need to exhibit patience. Not an easy thing to do, for sure, but when it comes to young players, most definitely needed.

…. Puck in the Ocean = the great Geno Carr

 

[kovazub94]

I agree that lack of patience has hurt us, but I also think it's a worrying trend that we always require so much patience.

Kreider is f***ing great but like, he broke out offensively at 31 years old. Zuccarello is a 90 point player now.

I think it's fair to say that there's something systemic with this organization that has been slowing down forwards for a long time, and it would be helpful to address.

Yes, surely can see claims that FO is at fault for not drafting Kaprisov or an equivalent...

 

[kovazub94]

The thing is that probably 80%-90% of all NHL'ers who eventually hit whatever we can define as "high-end" threshold will get there not earlier than around the age of 24-26. For this group before this age we could see signs of such potential, maybe even a season or a prolong stretch of such performance but not consistency (which is surely upsetting to fans).

 

[TheDirtyH]

My point was not about those particular players but about what level of patience is or would have been rational or justified based on where they were drafted. Of course people still had expectations that were met or not met with Kreider and Miller specifically but more leeway should have given to them based on being mid round picks instead of where Lafreniere and Kakko were picked. Same goes for Chytil, and he's shown more promise in his NHL career than either of the other two have up until Kakko this season. But just because you should have more patience that doesn't mean people aren't going to have criticisms or frustrations with their play. It's the nature of being a fan.

As far as what role these guys are being asked to fill, it's really the chicken or the egg isn't it? Kakko as far as I remember was placed in a top-6 role from the get go and had 2nd unit PP time. It was only when he wasn't up to snuff that he was removed from the role. Does that seem like the organization was planning to play him in a checking role? Lafreniere is a little bit more complex given he's had Kreider and Panarin ahead of him on the depth chart, but even in his case his 2nd career NHL game he was put on a line with Panarin and Strome. On his off-wing yes but that kind of supports the point. If you want to make the argument the Rangers should have left them there and let them sink or swim that's fair but on their own merits they never deserved that. I think it's more likely that the lack of performance has demanded that these guys are placed in a lesser role rather than it being an organizational imperative to play them in roles that don't allow them to flourish offensively. I think that's a rationalization that people use to justify their lack of production. yeah lack of PP time hasn't allowed them to pad their numbers, but then again when you watch them on the PP they don't really instill any sort of confidence that they would be all the successful running a top PP unit.

I don't know if characterizing it as pissed off is fair, like you said there's a schism in whether or not people think these guys still have a certain upside or not and whether people should lower expectations. It's an interesting question and an important one for the future of the franchise and I think we should continue to explore it.

Agreed. Though I don't want to re-hash usage since Kakko and Lafreniere both saw very little ice time at the start of their careers and my opinion is that power play time is critical. Kakko in particular may have begun in a top 6 roles but was out of it by November, and was off the pp as quickly despite performing very well on the top unit.

It is chicken and egg, and you and I definitely disagree about this, which is fine. To your point about whether or not their usage cam from an organizational imperative or was a result of their performance, I think it's a false dichotomy. Kandre miller was not a good player his rookie season or even the beginning of last year, but he got minutes. The reality is that the rangers felt they it was more important to maximize their roster and get wins in a season when they signed trouba and Panarin than to give Kakko the rope to grow and learn the NHL game from high leverage minutes. Plenty of top picks come in and score at mediocre rates and/or have pathetic possession metrics (Stutzle, anyone? Jack Hughes?).

So anyway, I think you and I just land on opposite sides of an age-old debate in life: individual determination vs. material conditioning. Whichever side you emphasize more will characterize your read on these players. But in any case, it is what it is now. All indications are that the rangers haven't soured on Kakkos upside, should we? That's probably the next question. And the one after is, how good he can be even if it falls short of initial projections and whether there's a valuable piece there still.

 

[LORDE]

You mean he's not getting 25, don't you?

He won’t get 25
Yes

He'll have 30 by March once his shooting percentage becomes something that you might see on planet Earth.

"They know his schtick."

They knew it last year. Kreider could skate up to you on the ice and tell you where he's gonna stand. How are you stopping him from going there?

Shooting percentage??? He can’t shoot the puck
The off wing snap shot? Jesus any goalie who can use angles stops that

 

[kovazub94]

He won’t get 25
Yes


Shooting percentage??? He can’t shoot the puck
The off wing snap shot? Jesus any goalie who can use angles stops that

 

[romba]

Panarin, CK and Zbad better stay solid for at least another 4-5 years.

4-5 years?

 

[Machinehead]

Shooting percentage??? He can’t shoot the puck
The off wing snap shot? Jesus any goalie who can use angles stops that

He's a career 14.8% shooter. I think he shoots pretty ok.

 

[leetch99]

I never liked the kids being selected so young and always hated that change in the draft . I know that will never change back and now we as fans need to live with the timetable it takes for the young picks to actually bulk up/gain experience /play and contribute . There will always be a few elite guys that are deemed more ready and who will enter into the NHL and enjoy success ahead of the rest and as well there will always be a few that never get a season in or even a game . A lot can change from age 17-20 for a player .

 

[Larrybiv]

I never said he was expected to be the best 1st overall since Matthews.

However had the Rangers played Laff on their top line with their best player, including on the PP, he may still not have been NHL ready, yet he almost certainly would have done better than he did.

I suppose "success means you are NHL ready" whereas
being labeled as"NHL ready, doesn't always equate to instant success. There are too many variables and yet I often wonder......
What do other teams think about Laffy NOT being as productive as everyone thought.....AND what would "they do" if they had him?

Thing is, this team had NEVER (since Park) had these types of players drafted so high. It was like they almost didn't know what to do with them. For years its been "ROOKIE" you're playing on the 4th line and you have to WORK your way up.
On the flip end.......placing them instantaneously on top6 and the minutes involved adding PP time........well, that lends itself to many players getting BUMPED lower and a non harmonious atmosphere (potentially, anyway)
I am old school and believe the 1st choice is best in the long run, BUT at some point everyone KNOWS that CONFIDENCE needs to grow somewhat rapidly, or else it tends to head in the wrong direction.
Chytil scratched and clawed and now that the light has finally gone on, he has become a BEAR to play against.
Kaapo had more injuries than Filip, and now he is growing into a MONSTER.
Laf being a year or 2 younger will get there, but even though many here were "handing him" the C because of his toughness and leadership skills along with immense talent is NOT even close to being a "generational talent", lets be real here. I would settle for a solid two way 70-90 pt. player with a very good plus/minus.

 

[IDvsEGO]

uh huh. How is it that every other team in the league that gets those high picks see instant or near instant results, but we as Rongo fans are stupid and unrealsitic to expect something close to that ?

Because when a 1/2 overall pick comes in, they typically get an absolute ton of ice time, aren’t buried on a depth chart. This lets them find confidence, and figure things out while playing.
Kakko had his confidence shot by Quinn multiple times.
Laf never lost confidence but walked into probably the deepest lw top 6 in the nhl.
Power play time is a huge opportunity for kids to work and develop.
Laf producing last year at 5v5 was a great sign of his overall talent.

 

[turcotte8]

We have lots of patience. They have from the day they're drafted until training camp. Plenty of time to develop.

 

[CLW]

This dunderhead is basically saying he can't coach. Unfortunately there are no obvious alternatives, Trotz is no doubt a better system's coach but that's not the only issue.

 

[Crease]

GG said he likes that the Kid Line controls the puck but at some point they need to start putting it in the net, and the club needs them to.

Nothing wrong with that statement. And frankly, it’s the first time I’ve seen management hold them to the fire. I’d like to see them respond—they’re certainly talented enough to.

 

[CLW]

lmao Nils scores a highlight reel goal for Dallas

 

[huerter]

lmao Nils scores a highlight reel goal for Dallas

He was always the best dman outside the chel. Shoving it right up our hoop.

 

[hella rights]

He was always the best dman outside the chel. Shoving it right up our hoop.

Still would never be getting the opportunities here that he’s getting with Dallas, he’d either be in Hartford again or scratched for Hajek.

 

[rangersfansince08]

The same people defending them would be the ones attacking the hell out of them if they were Isles/Devils putting up these numbers or looking like they look.

 

[Crease]

Chytil is in his 5th full season (career high of 23 points, on pace for 36 this season)
Kakko is in his 4th full season (career high of 23 points, on pace for 32 this season)
Laf is in his 3rd full season (career high of 31 points, on pace for 32 this season)
Kravstov is on pace for 18 injuries

If literally any one of these guys had developed into a star by now (not unreasonable), the team would look much different. Now imagine if two or three of them did. Instead, we're hanging onto the fact that they're able to cycle the puck well and they don't get powerplay time. I'm not saying time is running out and they should trade them. But it's been enormously disappointing and an indication that the club needs to seriously re-evaluate its forward development protocol. This transcends multiple GMs and coaches.

 

[Bob Richards]

Kinda incredible how dreadful the Rangers drafting record is with Top 10 picks in the last few decades

 

[The New Russian Five]

Kinda incredible how dreadful the Rangers drafting record is with Top 10 picks in the last few decades

It's an embarrassment and extremely frustrating.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Chytil is in his 5th full season (career high of 23 points, on pace for 36 this season)
Kakko is in his 4th full season (career high of 23 points, on pace for 32 this season)
Laf is in his 3rd full season (career high of 31 points, on pace for 32 this season)
Kravstov is on pace for 18 injuries

If literally any one of these guys had developed into a star by now (not unreasonable), the team would look much different. Now imagine if two or three of them did. Instead, we're hanging onto the fact that they're able to cycle the puck well and they don't get powerplay time. I'm not saying time is running out and they should trade them. But it's been enormously disappointing and an indication that the club needs to seriously re-evaluate its forward development protocol. This transcends multiple GMs and coaches.

Define full season Lafreniere hasnt even played 2 full seasons yet. 56, 79, 18 games. Add in 10 months of not playing in the pandemic at the most critical point in his career. He's gonna take time, its gonna be alright.

 

[Crease]

Define full season Lafreniere hasnt even played 2 full seasons yet. 56, 79, 18 games. Add in 10 months of not playing in the pandemic at the most critical point in his career. He's gonna take time, its gonna be alright.

I am defining "full season" as with the team for the full season. For example, I am not counting Chytil's 9 game rehearsal with the Rangers in 2017-18 before being sent to the AHL for the rest of that season.

For what it's worth, Stutzle, Raymond, Drysdale, Lundell, and Mercer dealt with the same circumstances as Lafreniere, and they are all producing at the NHL level at a better clip than Laf.

Yes ice time and usage are factors but at what point does it fall on the player to command ice time and usage through performance? I'm seeing very little from our kids aside from cycling and the rare dangle.

 

[Kravtsov420]

This is such bullshit. It’s almost statistically impossible that ALL of our draft picks don’t pan out. Nature vs nurture. There is definitely enough there with Chytil, and Kakko to have it not be nature. It’s nurture and always has been from this inept franchise.

Also people complain about the kids but 99% of the cap space of this team is made up by the veteran leadership which is laughable. We’ve hitched our ride to winners like Kreider, Mika,, Trouba, and Panarin who have have been net negatives. The rangers obviously signed/resigned them to drive the bus, but now the bus is stalling and they never taught the kids how to drive.

And then on top of not taking responsibility for it, they’ll blame their own negligence on “bad luck” !

This organization’s arrogance stinks from miles away.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I am defining "full season" as with the team for the full season. For example, I am not counting Chytil's 9 game rehearsal with the Rangers in 2017-18 before being sent to the AHL for the rest of that season.

For what it's worth, Stutzle, Raymond, Drysdale, Lundell, and Mercer dealt with the same circumstances as Lafreniere, and they are all producing at the NHL level at a better clip than Laf.

Yes ice time and usage are factors but at what point does it fall on the player to command ice time and usage through performance? I'm seeing very little from our kids aside from cycling and the rare dangle.

I get it. I want to be patient too.

But holy shit, its getting to the point where it is what it is with these players.

They need to push the envelope. We see it with all of the other kids around the league. A big part of it is from them thrusting themselves into the roles and the minutes they play.