Patience With Young Players

[alkurtz]

I don't know how many of you have been reading the NHL99 articles in the Athletic, a series that discusses the top 99 NHL players in the post expansion era (99 as everyone knows Gretzky s #1). Today's article was about Jean Ratelle, rated at #70.

The thing about Ratelle is this: it took him seemingly forever to establish himself as, first an NHL player, and then the star he eventually became. Take a look at his stats: he was repeatedly returned to the AHL (the Ranger farm team was the Baltimore Clippers). It wasn't until he was 25 that he became a regular and 27 until he became a star (I know that in today's game players reach their peak earlier).

I was a young, teenage Ranger fan in the early 1960s and vividly having a discussion with a friend in a high school gym class, complaining that, for all his obvious potential, that Ratelle couldn't put the puck in the ocean while standing on the beach.

If the hockey boards had existed back in those prehistoric days, I have no doubt that many (probably including me) would have been ready to write him off and willing to trade him.

Yes, I know, the game has changed and changed radically since the last days of the Original Six (and changed for the better). And, I know every player is different and you cannot and should not think that one example from the past should apply to everyone in the present or future.

But surely, Ratelle, a world class, elite, HOFer, should serve as a cautionary tale whenever we become frustrated with the lack of progress our younger players are showing. Sometimes, we just need to exhibit patience. Not an easy thing to do, for sure, but when it comes to young players, most definitely needed.

Click to read more...

 

[GENESISPuck94]

I want something, I'm not even entirely sure what I want, but I want it right now this instant.

 

[kovazub94]

I don't know how many of you have been reading the NHL99 articles in the Athletic, a series that discusses the top 99 NHL players in the post expansion era (99 as everyone knows Gretzky s #1). Today's article was about Jean Ratelle, rated at #70.

The thing about Ratelle is this: it took him seemingly forever to establish himself as, first an NHL player, and then the star he eventually became. Take a look at his stats: he was repeatedly returned to the AHL (the Ranger farm team was the Baltimore Clippers). It wasn't until he was 25 that he became a regular and 27 until he became a star (I know that in today's game players reach their peak earlier).

I was a young, teenage Ranger fan in the early 1960s and vividly having a discussion with a friend in a high school gym class, complaining that, for all his obvious potential, that Ratelle couldn't put the puck in the ocean while standing on the beach.

If the hockey boards had existed back in those prehistoric days, I have no doubt that many (probably including me) would have been ready to write him off and willing to trade him.

Yes, I know, the game has changed and changed radically since the last days of the Original Six (and changed for the better). And, I know every player is different and you cannot and should not think that one example from the past should apply to everyone in the present or future.

But surely, Ratelle, a world class, elite, HOFer, should serve as a cautionary tale whenever we become frustrated with the lack of progress our younger players are showing. Sometimes, we just need to exhibit patience. Not an easy thing to do, for sure, but when it comes to young players, most definitely needed.

We really don't even need to go that far back to make this point about being patient with prospects. I'm amazed (not really anymore) how the same posters go from posting shitty takes first on Zibanejad when he was first acquired to Buchnevich's early years in the NHL, to the similar takes on Chytil, Miller, Kakko, Lafreniere etc. It's also amusing that often the same folks thought that the likes of Nieves, Andersson, Howden would either turn into something more than what they became (or still trending), or just consistently staying negative nancies who are ready to be negative on any project and blame the organization for everyone's shortcomings (and feel validated with their premature takes in these cases).

Personally I'm at the point where I stopped responding to 99% of these discussions.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

These players should be in the Hall of Fame the instant they're born. Who do they think they are wasting my time.

Lafreniere is a bum and a bust, 21 is ancient, guy should be in a retirement home.

 

[romba]

1st and 2nd overalls rarely take until their mid 20's to hit their stride. That's mostly the issue with Laf. Plus he doesn't show anything that's great but raw, not speed, balance, puck control, vision, nor strength. He's easily closed off on zone entries or during the cycle. He doesn't do much off the rush which is bread and butter to scoring points. Doesn't do much with his limited PP time. We've seen a moment or two of wow what a nice pass, and then that's it for 15-20 games. Then a nice move with the puck, and quiet again for a dozen games. Really his best ability so far is to let his linemates do the hard work and find soft spots in the O zone + he has a very good wrist shot but has trouble finding space for himself to use it. He also throws a nice heavy hit here and there. Plenty of time to improve and I'm sure he will, however you don't get a 1st overall and then say to yourself 'ok let him develop for 5-7 years and then we'll get our all star'.

Kakko has greatly improved his shot, speed and strength. His defensive iq is also really good and he causes 2-3 O zone turnovers per game which are very valuable. It's much easier to see what niche he'll carve out to be successful in the NHL even if he's still inconsistent game to game.

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

1st and 2nd overalls rarely take until their mid 20's to hit their stride. That's mostly the issue with Laf. Plus he doesn't show anything that's great but raw, not speed, balance, puck control, vision, nor strength. He's easily closed off on zone entries or during the cycle. He doesn't do much off the rush which is bread and butter to scoring points. Doesn't do much with his limited PP time. We've seen a moment or two of wow what a nice pass, and then that's it for 15-20 games. Then a nice move with the puck, and quiet again for a dozen games. Really his best ability so far is to let his linemates do the hard work and find soft spots in the O zone + he has a very good wrist shot but has trouble finding space for himself to use it. He also throws a nice heavy hit here and there. Plenty of time to improve and I'm sure he will, however you don't get a 1st overall and then say to yourself 'ok let him develop for 5-7 years and then we'll get our all star'.

Kakko has greatly improved his shot, speed and strength. His defensive iq is also really good and he causes 2-3 O zone turnovers per game which are very valuable. It's much easier to see what niche he'll carve out to be successful in the NHL even if he's still inconsistent game to game.

He was benched 18 games ago. People have already had to eat a lot of crow on Kakko. Laf will be next. We all need to calm down.

Not just hockey but all sports. Giants fans were ready to get rid of Andrew Thomas after a few games as a rookie. He may be a top 5 overall player in football.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

I don't like Lafreniere's beard, he never even did a Michigan, and his GF isn't blonde...

 

[Unpredictable1]

I don't know how many of you have been reading the NHL99 articles in the Athletic, a series that discusses the top 99 NHL players in the post expansion era (99 as everyone knows Gretzky s #1). Today's article was about Jean Ratelle, rated at #70.

The thing about Ratelle is this: it took him seemingly forever to establish himself as, first an NHL player, and then the star he eventually became. Take a look at his stats: he was repeatedly returned to the AHL (the Ranger farm team was the Baltimore Clippers). It wasn't until he was 25 that he became a regular and 27 until he became a star (I know that in today's game players reach their peak earlier).

I was a young, teenage Ranger fan in the early 1960s and vividly having a discussion with a friend in a high school gym class, complaining that, for all his obvious potential, that Ratelle couldn't put the puck in the ocean while standing on the beach.

If the hockey boards had existed back in those prehistoric days, I have no doubt that many (probably including me) would have been ready to write him off and willing to trade him.

Yes, I know, the game has changed and changed radically since the last days of the Original Six (and changed for the better). And, I know every player is different and you cannot and should not think that one example from the past should apply to everyone in the present or future.

But surely, Ratelle, a world class, elite, HOFer, should serve as a cautionary tale whenever we become frustrated with the lack of progress our younger players are showing. Sometimes, we just need to exhibit patience. Not an easy thing to do, for sure, but when it comes to young players, most definitely needed.

I do appreciate this nicely written post and nice to hear first hand of yesteryear being a fan. Patience has been hard to come by with some kids these days but I believe we have a special collection in the system.

I also think having other fanbases (especially rival) pointing and laughing at some of our highly drafted kids not being instant stars on social media and discussion platforms (including this board) is also fanning the flames a bit for a few in this section as well.

I fully admit impatience can creep in with me at times, but I truly want to stand pat on keeping who we have for youth.

 

[DanielBrassard]

It's not all of the young players, chytil and miller have met and exceeded expectations and they have earned tons of praise. I think we've been patient enough with 1st and 2nd overall picks who have been underperformers. That's the crux of the issue.

If they were mid to late 1st round picks like Chytil or Kreider or even J.T. Miller the sentiment would be different but when you have two guys who were drafted at the top of their respective drafts and who have been two of the worst performers from their draft positions, which no one would have ever accepted if you told them it would be the case before each player was drafted, I think being impatient and critical is only fair.

 

[romba]

I mean to put it another way, If our 1st and 2nd overalls performed like the average 1st and 2nd overalls do 2-3 years post-draft, we might be talking about the Cup we won last year. Instead we'll be mired in mediocrity with Laf and Kakko hitting their strides just as Panarin, CK and Zbad are full fledged high priced anchors, and everyone will be lamenting the dumb long term deals we gave out.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

uh huh. How is it that every other team in the league that gets those high picks see instant or near instant results, but we as Rongo fans are stupid and unrealsitic to expect something close to that ?

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

I mean to put it another way, If our 1st and 2nd overalls performed like the average 1st and 2nd overalls do 2-3 years post-draft, we might be talking about the Cup we won last year. Instead we'll be mired in mediocrity with Laf and Kakko hitting their strides just as Panarin, CK and Zbad are full fledged high priced anchors, and everyone will be lamenting the dumb long term deals we gave out.

We may have been talking about the cup we won last year if line 1 and 2 matched their salaries. Line 3 was flying.

 

[LORDE]

These players should be in the Hall of Fame the instant they're born. Who do they think they are wasting my time.

Lafreniere is a bum and a bust, 21 is ancient, guy should be in a retirement home.

Hyperbole but he's also NOT good. Like at all. He's a warm body.

We what... wait until he's 24? 25? 28?

When do we see his best? Or do we just say... ehhhhhh this

IS

it

 

[TheDirtyH]

It's not all of the young players, chytil and miller have met and exceeded expectations and they have earned tons of praise. I think we've been patient enough with 1st and 2nd overall picks who have been underperformers. That's the crux of the issue.

If they were mid to late 1st round picks like Chytil or Kreider or even J.T. Miller the sentiment would be different but when you have two guys who were drafted at the top of their respective drafts and who have been two of the worst performers from their draft positions, which no one would have ever accepted if you told them it would be the case before each player was drafted, I think being impatient and critical is only fair.

I encourage you to read what the majority of posts about Chytil were saying at any point before the playoffs last year. Or for that matter, JT Miller or Chris Kreider for essentially their entire careers here...

There's a difference between being impatient and lowering your expectations. Maybe the latter should be encouraged at this point. Most checkers in the league were star players at the junior level and have to spend their early twenties learning how to become checkers at the pro level. Cuylle is an example of someone going through that now. Fast was a PPG player in Sweden IIRC. With Lafreniere and Kakko, they've come here and been asked to fill a role unlike any they've had before the NHL. They've each had varying degrees of success with it, but it remains true that rather than being players who see high leverage minutes and lots of puck touches, they've been role players, asked to check, create energy, and defer to skill ahead of them on the depth chart. That makes a difference. We're seeing exactly what difference it makes. The question is whether one can still see appreciable upside that if/when the opportunity changes, these two will be able to seize it.

Someone preaching patience will probably have confidence that these two have the upside to do it, but understand that it will take time to learn and adjust in those roles just as it has to this point in lesser roles. Someone with lowered expectations would probably believe that the upside isn't there at this point. In either case it seems worthless to be pissed off about it (though it's anyone's right).

 

[eco's bones]

Not every young player is eventually going to get it and turned into a Ratelle or even a Buchnevich. Ratelle actually was kind of a rarity even for his day. I mean not many players starting getting it together at 25 and end up in the Hall of Fame.

We are going to cycle through some of our young. It's inevitable. There's sometimes a problem like in Nils and Schneider's case who to keep. Sometimes as in Nils case....a player forces you to choose because he doesn't want to wait any longer.

So far.....Igor and Fox and K'Andre are three who have really stood out but you can see the steady progress of Lafreniere and Kakko as well. You can see patience paying off with Chytil. That Schneider might be another similar to K'Andre. Also the heart of Lindgren. That's a lot right there....but there's more on the horizon----whether it's Garand, Cuylle, Othmann, Berard, Sykora, Robertson, Trivigno.

I have the feeling that Al is telling us to be more patient with Kravtsov.....and maybe he's right. There are things we as fans don't know or don't see......whether all those things are good or not I think I almost have to take it on faith however Drury decides to go with this player. He and the coaching and management staff see him every day. They'll have a read on him that we don't.....not just as a player but as a person. Both are important. They speak to how he fits in. The Rangers also have an idea of what they think he's worth as a trade piece. The one thing I will say that he's not going to be a big time scorer in the NHL. That doesn't mean he can't be a good middle 6 forward but I say this because his numbers have always underwhelmed his skill set. He's never put up great numbers anywhere. Not in the KHL, the AHL or the NHL. That means he'll have to diversify and adapt his game to the Rangers needs and find his own niche within the Rangers lineup and try to move up from that.

 

[Off Sides]

I think the Rangers should have been more patient.

 

[LORDE]

I think the Rangers should have been more patient.

I think in true NYR fashion, "winning" two lotteries actually f***ED us

 

[romba]

We may have been talking about the cup we won last year if line 1 and 2 matched their salaries. Line 3 was flying.

Fair point, but it was mostly Panarin at 5 on 5 who was dog crap. He wasn't great the whole season but reached a new low in the playoffs. Zbad and CK were fine, and Frankie V wasn't good regarding possession but scored some timely goals for us. But the kid line did look good, though that was mostly Chytil sacking up.

 

[Off Sides]

I think in true NYR fashion, "winning" two lotteries actually f***ED us

I think the Rangers should have told both Lias and Chytil that if they signed their entry level pro contracts, odds were very good they'd play in the AHL for their whole 1st pro season, and then played them there if they still signed them.

Told every prospect drafted that same thing.

I know Laff could not go to the AHL due to the rules, then they should have done what they are doing with Othmann, left him in juniors. Krav went back, he could have just stayed there and probably been better off for it.

18-19 year olds unless they are generational talents are not ready for the NHL. Maybe the Rangers thought that is what they were getting, if so they were wrong.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I think the Rangers should have told both Lias and Chytil that if they signed their entry level pro contracts, odds were very good they'd play in the AHL for their whole 1st pro season, and then played them there if they still signed them.

Told every prospect drafted that same thing.

I know Laff could not go to the AHL due to the rules, then they should have done what they are doing with Othmann, left him in juniors. Krav went back, he could have just stayed there and probably been better off for it.

18-19 year olds unless they are generational talents are not ready for the NHL. Maybe the Rangers thought that is what they were getting, if so they were wrong.

Plenty of non-generational 18 year olds are ready for the NHL and hold their own even if they’re not quite stars yet. Hischier, Ekblad , RNH, Landeskog, Tkachuk bros, etc. we’re just a cursed franchise end of discussion .

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Plenty of non-generational 18 year olds are ready for the NHL and hold their own even if they’re not quite stars yet. Hischier, Ekblad , RNH, Landeskog, Tkachuk bros, etc. we’re just a cursed franchise end of discussion .

Then why watch

 

[SA16]

I think the Rangers should have told both Lias and Chytil that if they signed their entry level pro contracts, odds were very good they'd play in the AHL for their whole 1st pro season, and then played them there if they still signed them.

Told every prospect drafted that same thing.

I know Laff could not go to the AHL due to the rules, then they should have done what they are doing with Othmann, left him in juniors. Krav went back, he could have just stayed there and probably been better off for it.

18-19 year olds unless they are generational talents are not ready for the NHL. Maybe the Rangers thought that is what they were getting, if so they were wrong.

Well considering the only 1st overall forwards in the last 30 years to not play in the NHL in their draft year were Ovechkin (lockout) and Lindros (hold out) it would seem the league would beg to differ about those 18-19 year olds not being ready for the NHL. Does not seem to me that many of them had issues adapting, immediately, or that it ruined them.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Well considering the only 1st overall forwards in the last 30 years to not play in the NHL in their draft year were Ovechkin (lockout) and Lindros (hold out) it would seem the league would beg to differ about those 18-19 year olds not being ready for the NHL.

For real, that reads like copium of the highest levels

 

[Off Sides]

Well considering the only 1st overall forwards in the last 30 years to not play in the NHL in their draft year were Ovechkin (lockout) and Lindros (hold out) it would seem the league would beg to differ about those 18-19 year olds not being ready for the NHL. Does not seem to me that many of them had issues adapting, immediately, or that it ruined them.

"18-19 year olds unless they are generational talents are not ready for the NHL"

Laff was never that.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I encourage you to read what the majority of posts about Chytil were saying at any point before the playoffs last year. Or for that matter, JT Miller or Chris Kreider for essentially their entire careers here...

There's a difference between being impatient and lowering your expectations. Maybe the latter should be encouraged at this point. Most checkers in the league were star players at the junior level and have to spend their early twenties learning how to become checkers at the pro level. Cuylle is an example of someone going through that now. Fast was a PPG player in Sweden IIRC. With Lafreniere and Kakko, they've come here and been asked to fill a role unlike any they've had before the NHL. They've each had varying degrees of success with it, but it remains true that rather than being players who see high leverage minutes and lots of puck touches, they've been role players, asked to check, create energy, and defer to skill ahead of them on the depth chart. That makes a difference. We're seeing exactly what difference it makes. The question is whether one can still see appreciable upside that if/when the opportunity changes, these two will be able to seize it.

Someone preaching patience will probably have confidence that these two have the upside to do it, but understand that it will take time to learn and adjust in those roles just as it has to this point in lesser roles. Someone with lowered expectations would probably believe that the upside isn't there at this point. In either case it seems worthless to be pissed off about it (though it's anyone's right).

My point was not about those particular players but about what level of patience is or would have been rational or justified based on where they were drafted. Of course people still had expectations that were met or not met with Kreider and Miller specifically but more leeway should have given to them based on being mid round picks instead of where Lafreniere and Kakko were picked. Same goes for Chytil, and he's shown more promise in his NHL career than either of the other two have up until Kakko this season. But just because you should have more patience that doesn't mean people aren't going to have criticisms or frustrations with their play. It's the nature of being a fan.

As far as what role these guys are being asked to fill, it's really the chicken or the egg isn't it? Kakko as far as I remember was placed in a top-6 role from the get go and had 2nd unit PP time. It was only when he wasn't up to snuff that he was removed from the role. Does that seem like the organization was planning to play him in a checking role? Lafreniere is a little bit more complex given he's had Kreider and Panarin ahead of him on the depth chart, but even in his case his 2nd career NHL game he was put on a line with Panarin and Strome. On his off-wing yes but that kind of supports the point. If you want to make the argument the Rangers should have left them there and let them sink or swim that's fair but on their own merits they never deserved that. I think it's more likely that the lack of performance has demanded that these guys are placed in a lesser role rather than it being an organizational imperative to play them in roles that don't allow them to flourish offensively. I think that's a rationalization that people use to justify their lack of production. yeah lack of PP time hasn't allowed them to pad their numbers, but then again when you watch them on the PP they don't really instill any sort of confidence that they would be all the successful running a top PP unit.

I don't know if characterizing it as pissed off is fair, like you said there's a schism in whether or not people think these guys still have a certain upside or not and whether people should lower expectations. It's an interesting question and an important one for the future of the franchise and I think we should continue to explore it.