Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[TheLegend]

"Falling tens of millions below expectations ..."

Who could've ever guessed?

And the state tourist authority's shortfall is Glendale's fault?

Just an fyi..... they are expecting this year's bowls to bring $420 million into Phoenix Metro's economy. Which is an 8% increase over the last time they held the BCS Championship in Glendale.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2010/12/07/20101207arizona-college-bowl-economic-impact.html

 

[kdb209]

So, the question remains: have they incorporated any landowners outside of the City-owned land into the CFD (i.e. Ellman and Westgate)?

Not that we know of - but the adoption of any resolution to add property to the CFD (under §48-714) would be approved by the CFD board of directors, not the CoG City Council, so it would not necessarily show up in the normal CoG Agendas/Minutes.

Edit: Actually, the addition of propery requires a resolution of intent by the "governing body" (the CoG Council) and approval by the district board (either appointed by the Council or the Council members themselves wearing different hats).

B. At any time after adoption of the resolution of intention to form the district an area may be added to the district on adoption by the governing board of a resolution of intention to do so, and approval by the district board following a hearing on notice to the owners of land in the district and in the proposed addition to the district in the manner prescribed for the formation hearing. Approval for addition of the area to the district shall be received from the owners of land in the district and in the proposed addition area pursuant to section 48-705, subsection B or pursuant to section 48-707, subsection F if the approval by the owners of land in the district and in the proposed addition includes in its petition a waiver of any requirement for a separate resolution of intention by the district board and a waiver of any requirement of posting, publication, mailing, notice, hearing and election as to that addition to the district.

5. "District board" means the board of directors of the district, which shall be comprised of the members of the governing body of the municipality or county, ex officio, or, at the option of the governing body, five directors appointed by the governing body under this article.

9. "Governing body" means the body or board which by law is constituted as the legislative department of the municipality or county.

edit2: Looking back at the minutes, the CoG Council did not act to appoint a CFD district board, so by default it would be comprised of the members of the Governing Body (ie the CoG City Council, acting separately from their responsibilities as Council members, "ex officio").

 

[OthmarAmmann]

And we just ousted quite a number of them who did just that a little over a month ago.

Unfortunately their replacements likely don't do much reading.

Scariest thing I heard last year: A U.S. Senator has to raise $10,000 per day to mount a reelection campaign.

 

[RR]

How would you define "adjacent"? Does a CFD have to be contiguous geographically, or can it just be "conceptual". So far, we have really only heard about Ellman and the Westgate properties, presumably because some of them would benefit from the Coyotes' presence. But what about the Westgate tenants that see little to no added value to the Coyotes. For example, I would think that any parking charges or levies on the movie multiplex would be a huge disincentive for them. Adding a parking charge to a movie ticket would make them much less competitive, I would think. The irony is that the movie multiplex is probably more important for other businesses in Westgate because the volume of patrons over a year would be as much or more than Coyotes fans, and they are perhaps more likely than Coyotes fans to patronize some of the other businesses because of the lower cost of a movie and the relative flexibility of timing (matinees, etc.). So, if you are Ellman and other Westgate businesses, can you afford to alienate the movie multiplex by adding parking and other fees? I expect that these sorts of calculations will need to be made, if they have not been already.

You love speculative questions, don't you?

I have no answers, and I'm not presuming to know anything (that's a softball).

 

[Whileee]

You love speculative questions, don't you?

I have no answers, and I'm not presuming to know anything (that's a softball).

Those who don't know speculate. I guess we know where that leaves me.

The problem arises when people don't realize when they are speculating.

 

[RR]

Those who don't know speculate. I guess we know where that leaves me.

Then you must be absolutely exhausted at this point.

 

[pucka lucka]

Then you must be absolutely exhausted at this point.

I must admit, it's nice to have civil and reasonable discussions on this topic again. People can be reasonable and rational, even when they have a preferred "truth". Who knew?

 

[Whileee]

You love speculative questions, don't you?

I have no answers, and I'm not presuming to know anything (that's a softball).

Then you must be absolutely exhausted at this point.

Not really. Since the same issues keep cropping up I can just recycle the same speculation. Different month, same stuff. Good thing so many folks have such short memories.

But actually, I really am rather ambivalent about whether the Coyotes stay in Glendale. If Glendale can swing a deal, more power to them, and congrats to the loyal fans. You'll have no hard feelings from me. Still, it is an interesting exercise to try to decode what is going on with this deal. And it is kind of fun to call folks out on the goofy stuff.

 

[AllByDesign]

And we just ousted quite a number of them who did just that a little over a month ago.

Hey... its your health care, dude.

 

[AllByDesign]

it is kind of fun to call folks out on the goofy stuff.

Hehe, If anything, I am chock full of goofy.

 

[gollybass]

Coyotes deal still in negotiations

As of Thursday night, Glendale still had not finalized a deal with Phoenix Coyotes buyer Matthew Hulsizer, one day before the city planned to post the agreement publicly, according to Glendale Mayor Elaine Scruggs.

She told residents during a scheduled meeting on various city issues that the agreement may or may not be reached Friday (Dec. 11) and scheduled for a City Council vote Tuesday (Dec. 14), depending on city staffers' progress on the talks Friday. She said negotiations could take until the end of the day, when Glendale typically posts its council agendas, around 5 p.m. Agendas are posted here: http://glendaleaz.com/clerk....

Glendale's negotiations with Coyotes buyers in the past have appeared to run close to the posting deadline. And in general, parties often negotiate close to deadlines as a means of bargaining.

But Glendale has little time left to secure an owner before Dec. 31, when the National Hockey League said it could seek to relocate the franchise. And the city has blown through deadlines to secure an owner before. If the agreement does not make Tuesday's vote, Glendale could call a special meeting any time with 24 hours' notice.

Glendale must hash out lease terms with Hulsizer so that the Coyotes can continue playing at Jobing.com Arena. The city paid $180 million to open the arena in 2003 and depends on rent, fees and taxes paid by the Coyotes to play at the arena and operate events. The financially-struggling Coyotes likely will depend on new revenue streams generated at or near the arena and approved by Glendale to stay afloat, such as higher parking charges that were proposed in the past.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/westsideinsider/110206

So the beat goes on, last minute posturing?

 

[RAgIn]

Perhaps it has become a game of chicken at this point.

Who has the most to lose? the COG or Hulsizer?

...that's perhaps a rhetorical question.

 

[gollybass]

Perhaps it has become a game of chicken at this point.

Who has the most to lose? the COG or Hulsizer?

...that's perhaps a rhetorical question.

It makes sense that it is... kinda, the COG is trying its hardest not to get *****...

Well either way they will be, but trying to get the most out of the situation makes sense.

 

[Whileee]

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/westsideinsider/110206

So the beat goes on, last minute posturing?

Brinksmanship, at this stage???

Glendale announced almost two months ago that they had reached a verbal agreement on a lease with Hulsizer. I guess that it was more "conceptual" than they we were led to believe.

By the way, I thought that there weren't any "deadlines" now that Hulsizer has been identified as a potential buyer.

 

[RAgIn]

It makes sense that it is... kinda, the COG is trying its hardest not to get *****...

Well either way they will be, but trying to get the most out of the situation makes sense.

Abosultely, they are screwed. But if the COG doens't accept the terms and "say nevermind Mr. Hulsizer", will anyone in Glendale really notice? Apart from the true-hardcore fans, I wonder what the mood would be like in the city, shortly after a news of that sort plays out? Hmmm.

 

[RAgIn]

I think it's safe to say, that the December 14 COG meeting is pointless at this juncture. The COG can pretty much call a meeting whenever it want; well before the December 31 deadline to approve a “leaseâ€.

December 30, 11:00 pm sounds about right to me.

 

[CasualFan]

Not that we know of - but the adoption of any resolution to add property to the CFD (under §48-714) would be approved by the CFD board of directors, not the CoG City Council, so it would not necessarily show up in the normal CoG Agendas/Minutes.

Edit: Actually, the addition of propery requires a resolution of intent by the "governing body" (the CoG Council) and approval by the district board (either appointed by the Council or the Council members themselves wearing different hats).

edit2: Looking back at the minutes, the CoG Council did not act to appoint a CFD district board, so by default it would be comprised of the members of the Governing Body (ie the CoG City Council, acting separately from their responsibilities as Council members, "ex officio").

Glendale, AZ is infuriating to work with. I initiated a simple FOIA request approximately 12 weeks ago. I have yet to receive a substantive response.

I should submit that I have not been diligent in following up with Glendale (there is this ongoing Legislative battle in the USA regarding tax relief that is kind of important.)

Regardless of my other lobbying efforts - the City of Glendale should have easily fulfilled a simple information request. The lack of response from the city is, to me, a clear indication of ill intent. Obviously, I do not know if that intent is to let the team leave -or- to provide a subsidy of epic proportions. I can say that Glendale, AZ will not allow you into their thought process even though they are a public entity that should be transparent.

* Resist Class Warfare - Tax Cuts for All *

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Abosultely, they are screwed. But if the COG doens't accept the terms and "say nevermind Mr. Hulsizer", will anyone in Glendale really notice? Apart from the true-hardcore fans, I wonder what the mood would be like in the city, shortly after a news of that sort plays out? Hmmm.

The sad fact (or happy depending how you look at it) is that very few people in the Phoenix metro of some 4 million people give a damn about the Coyotes. Case in point, after all the good news from the BOG about their new potential owner and despite having a good team this year and cheap tickets, only 7,749 people bothered to show up for the game this evening (at least according to the NHL's "announced attendance"). It almost surreal.

GHOST

 

[gollybass]

The sad fact (or happy depending how you look at it) is that very few people in the Phoenix metro of some 4 million people give a damn about the Coyotes. Case in point, after all the good news from the BOG about their new potential owner and despite having a good team this year and cheap tickets, only 7,749 people bothered to show up for the game this evening (at least according to the NHL's "announced attendance"). It almost surreal.

GHOST

At this point, its obvious the current attendance, which is trending upward despite higher ticket prices, and no owner, means very little, as MH said its going to take some winning back of the fans,

Fact of the matter is that the COG HAS to get this done or they will stand to lose hundreds of millions more than if the team stays with some CFD handouts.

 

[Gump Hasek]

At this point, its obvious the current attendance, which is trending upward despite higher ticket prices.

Really?

Not according to the current ESPN data.

Coyotes are averaging 10,189 after 12 home games according to this data....
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

Last season was 11,989 according to ESPN...
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2010

Last night the "announced" attendance was just 7,749.

How does that equate to "trending upward"?

 

[MoreOrr]

Excuse me guys, to be asking a question that's sort of outside of the present discussion, and a question that's certainly seems late in coming (and therefore perhaps it's been asked and answered before)...

Could there be any truth in the idea that if someone had stepped forward to move the Coyotes to a city where the League would be truly interested to have a team, with an owner that the League respected, that the League may well have said already... let's do it?

I mean, again if we look back at past experiences in the League, relocations have happened, and the argument by many has been that if this or that team hadn't been protected then why are the Coyotes being so protected in Phoenix now. And sure, there has been plenty of explanation given that the League has just simply changed its stance on relocations, and that it also somehow still sees Phoenix as a potential viable market. But then, what about teams like the Rockies and the Atlanta Flames, didn't the League then consider Denver and Atlanta to be markets with potential that they should hold on to? Or again, does it just come down to a change of attitude?

Anyway, to repeat the question: Has there really been anyone, other than Balsillie, come forward to offer to move the Coyotes to a city that truly could be attractive to the League? A truly respectable offer of relocation, in the League's eyes.

Perhaps when it really comes down to it, that's a significant part of the reason why the Coyotes are still in Phoenix. Unless there in fact has been some offer of relocatio that I'm not aware of.

 

[Whileee]

At this point, its obvious the current attendance, which is trending upward despite higher ticket prices, and no owner, means very little, as MH said its going to take some winning back of the fans,

Fact of the matter is that the COG HAS to get this done or they will stand to lose hundreds of millions more than if the team stays with some CFD handouts.

I have read this same assertion repeatedly. How do you figure that losing the Coyotes will cost the city hundreds of millions? The current lease agreement has resulted in the Coyotes paying less than $4 million annually in lease and other payments to the City of Glendale. At that rate it would take more than 6 years for the Coyotes to just pay back $25 million that the City of Glendale is on the hook for this year. Beyond that, the $4 million per year is not even 1/3 of what we have been told are the debt payments for the Jobing.com arena. So they have to find an extra $8-9 million in any case to pay the Jobing.com debt payments. As I have written before, I support a municipality subsidizing sports, entertainment and cultural activities in their city if they do so transparently and have the support of the citizens. But doing so based on misrepresentation of the financial realities is wrong, and should be called out.

 

[Whileee]

Excuse me guys, to be asking a question that's sort of outside of the present discussion, and a question that's certainly seems late in coming (and therefore perhaps it's been asked and answered before)...

Could there be any truth in the idea that if someone had stepped forward to move the Coyotes to a city where the League would be truly interested to have a team, with an owner that the League respected, that the League may well have said already... let's do it?

I mean, again if we look back at past experiences in the League, relocations have happened, and the argument by many has been that if this or that team hadn't been protected then why are the Coyotes being so protected in Phoenix now. And sure, there has been plenty of explanation given that the League has just simply changed its stance on relocations, and that it also somehow still sees Phoenix as a potential viable market. But then, what about teams like the Rockies and the Atlanta Flames, didn't the League then consider Denver and Atlanta to be markets with potential that they should hold on to? Or again, does it just come down to a change of attitude?

Anyway, to repeat the question: Has there really been anyone, other than Balsillie, come forward to offer to move the Coyotes to a city that truly could be attractive to the League? A truly respectable offer of relocation, in the League's eyes.

Perhaps when it really comes down to it, that's a significant part of the reason why the Coyotes are still in Phoenix. Unless there in fact has been some offer of relocatio that I'm not aware of.

I think the answer is relatively straightforward. The NHL wants the team to remain in Glendale. If they can arrange that with an owner they like and without losing money in the transaction, they will do it. If they can't, then they will sell the team to recoup their money to an owner they like who will relocate it to a place that they support. Right now, the ownership group that they appear to like is TNSE and the location is Winnipeg. That is what all of the evidence points to, despite how this galls so many who seem to have deep concerns about how this will "harm" the NHL.

 

[David_99]

Really?

Not according to the current ESPN data.

Coyotes are averaging 10,189 after 12 home games according to this data....

It sorta was slowly, before the last couple games.

 

[Free Edler]

It sorta was slowly, before the last couple games.

Pretty depressing that after the home opener the major 'up' points in that graph are 14,000 and 12,000. Ygh. Hopefully Hulsizer is just as patient as he is rich because this is going to be painful for him.