Panarin: Yes or No?

[Raspewtin]

If we're choosing between Hall and Panarin it's easily Hall but I don't think anyone expects the Devils not to go all out to sign Hall and they have tons of cap space--could easily give him the best contract in the league. Panarin signaled last year that he was not re-signing with the Blue Jackets. Hall hasn't signaled anything of the kind so I'd expect the Devils to lock him up.

Oh yes, I'm sure it's very unrealistic. It would be lovely though.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I think mostly the idea is two years and then we can go out and bring in some real help. We've seen however in the past how teams overpay for free agents once that season opens though sometimes (not every year) there is actually a worthwhile to go all out for. I'm just wondering that if in two years the Rangers have the problem of having to spend $25-30 mil to get to the cap floor they'll do **** like give Dougie Hamilton and Nugent-Hopkins $9 mil per year contracts or package some of our stud prospects in a trade for veteran help with a high $ contract. Free agency looks like it's going to be **** that year but speaking of that year we will have Henrik and Shattenkirk, Staal and Smith coming off the books--$26 mil worth right there and maybe another $4 for the annual cap rise bringing it to $30. And that's not factoring in what's happened to Kreider, Strome, Namestnikov, Vesey and Fast in the mean--who if anyone is even left and what the cap numbers of their replacements are. There are penalties for not hitting the cap floor that make that idea not a good option....and don't expect the NHLPA to side with us on that. They want teams spending money on their clients.

There are some who want us to lose and lose and lose our way to another lottery pick. If I were that way I'd be thinking of taking the year off from watching them at all. What's the fun of being happy watching your team lose night after night?--to jump all over some guys you don't like and tell everyone how **** they are? But as you say the Rangers really could be a much better team this coming year and then what? A Panarin signing IMO might put us in a place where we can actually make the playoffs or if not make a real attempt at competing for a playoff spot.

Heres what is so frustrating about the pro panarin arguments here. They are almost universally inundated with really bad logic.

How many teams have been penalized for the cap floor? That is such an overly unrealistic concern to have that it's not even remotely worth bringing up. But points as bad as that keep on coming up from people arguing for panarin. It shows how bad of a move it is.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

There has been a ton of posts on this thread but the one theme that is going on here and one which I'm a little vexed to be honest with is quite a few posts in here from some that don't want Gorton to go for Panarin because it's going to take another 3 years before we will be ready to "compete" so let's suck next year, keep accumulating draft capital and not "waste" $11 mill per year when by the time we are ready to "compete", Panarin will be past his prime. Does that sound about right?

Withought naming names...you know who you are, please help me out here because apparently I'm confused with this word compete you are using:

Do you mean in three years "we'll compete for a Cup"? Or do you mean in three years "we'll compete for the playoffs"?

I can't be the only one that looks at our division and the Eastern Conference as a whole and sees that even with the current rebuild and even if we don't sign Panarin, it wouldn't be out of the question for us to to be a bubble playoff team THIS upcoming season.

I mean other than the Caps, Leafs and Bruins, what other teams are in your opinions "locks" to make the playoffs next year? Exactly, I can't come up with one either for a variety of reasons as each team including the Pens, Jackets, Canes,Islanders, Habs of the world all have major question marks heading into this season.

I guess my point being, I'm not so sure we are going to suck as badly as some of y'all are suggesting for this upcoming season or that we are going to be a lottery team no matter how much some in here want, not so much because we are going to be all that good but because our competition for those bubble spots aren't that good either.

I dunno, I'm not going to be crestfallen if Panarin signs with Florida for example but I also don't see us sucking as badly as some of you insinuate we will and that from the comments in here by some of y'all would piss some of y'all just as much as if we signed Panarin....lol

This seems like a dishonest attempt to incorrectly cherry pick multiple people including me. You know that mult people brought up the timing of the signing but you somehow missed that almost all of us went into significant details to support this?

Again these bad, often dishonest arguments showing up this often really helps highlight how bad this move would be. It's a terrible risk for minimal chance of reward. Even a terrible risk can payoff by pure luck but that doesnt change all the evidence that shows why this would be a terrible signing for more than 5 years

The reasoning for the anti-Panarin crowd to have their stance is too well-documented for you to over imply like this. This is way too dumbed down of a reason.

I tried avoiding the dumb word in my last posts. In the entirety of my time here I've never outright used that word to describe stances more than I have in this thread alone. But these arguments in favor of panarin are almost all just so, so dumb to me. It's just how I see many of them. Or dishonest

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

the idea of panarin making players around him better and the positive impact he can have on our kids is probably the single best argument that can be made in favor of signing him

I agree. And yet it's still weak and flimsy as hell

 

[SA16]

If we're choosing between Hall and Panarin it's easily Hall but I don't think anyone expects the Devils not to go all out to sign Hall and they have tons of cap space--could easily give him the best contract in the league. Panarin signaled last year that he was not re-signing with the Blue Jackets. Hall hasn't signaled anything of the kind so I'd expect the Devils to lock him up.

It's easily Panarin for me. They're similar offensively, Panarin is better in the penalty department, Panarin is slightly better defensively, and Panarin does not have the long history of injury Hall has. Hall is also not really that great of a goal scorer outside of the one year his shots went in 40% more often than usual. Panarin also reaches FA at a year younger.

 

[haveandare]

I agree. And yet it's still weak and flimsy as hell

How is it weak and flimsy? We have a number of kids we're trying to develop at forward and garbage around them aside from literally one or two guys. Assuming Kreider moves, which is sounding somewhat likely, Mika is in my opinion the single forward we have who you can really say makes it easier for his line mates and helps them get in position to put up points.

 

[RGY]

People suggest we wait until next year or the year after that to add a piece. Have those same people looked at those classes? Who are we adding? Taylor Hall who hasnt exactly had a healthy career and will be 29 years old in November after signing a minimum 6 year contract at a high cap hit? Alex Ovechkin at age 36? The 2021 offseason class looks like it will be ready to ride off into the sunset. How about three years from now. 2022 class. Gaudreau will be 28. Forsberg 27. Barkov 26. Maybe 27 year old Seth Jones slips through. But do you really think all, if any, make it to free agency?

People are right to think not all of our prospects will not workout or hit their ceiling. So we will have to explore other avenues. Signing a player costs no assets. People say well we’ll just trade for that perfect player that is age 23-26 when we need to. Like that player will just be sitting there waiting for us. Not to mention we will pay a pretty penny for that player if he exists.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

How is it weak and flimsy? We have a number of kids we're trying to develop at forward and garbage around them aside from literally one or two guys. Assuming Kreider moves, which is sounding somewhat likely, Mika is in my opinion the single forward we have who you can really say makes it easier for his line mates and helps them get in position to put up points.

This has been addressed ad nauseam. Its weak and flimsy for so many obvious reasons that I have serious doubts that it should have even needed to be addressed at all.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

People suggest we wait until next year or the year after that to add a piece. Have those same people looked at those classes? Who are we adding? Taylor Hall who hasnt exactly had a healthy career and will be 29 years old in November after signing a minimum 6 year contract at a high cap hit? Alex Ovechkin at age 36? The 2021 offseason class looks like it will be ready to ride off into the sunset. How about three years from now. 2022 class. Gaudreau will be 28. Forsberg 27. Barkov 26. Maybe 27 year old Seth Jones slips through. But do you really think all, if any, make it to free agency?

People are right to think not all of our prospects will not workout or hit their ceiling. So we will have to explore other avenues. Signing a player costs no assets. People say well we’ll just trade for that perfect player that is age 23-26 when we need to. Like that player will just be sitting there waiting for us. Not to mention we will pay a pretty penny for that player if he exists.

A. You just totally misrepresented the argument by dishonestly representing it as if we've been talking about just the next two off seasons .

B. This is yet another point that has been addressed ad nauseam. Again this is yet another point that was addressed in so many obvious ways that I dont think it should have ever even been brought up

Like what are you people doing? How manytimes are you all going to reiterate the same points to try to justify a dumb risk? It's a stupid risk with a low likelihood of paying off. The options you're poo pooing are also risks. Just lesser risks. Nothing is guaranteed.

To address haveandares straight up lie claiming I cant address points. Check pages 1-14

 

[haveandare]

This has been addressed ad nauseam. Its weak and flimsy for so many obvious reasons that I have serious doubts that it should have even needed to be addressed at all.

It's so obvious that you can't explain it.

Maybe take some of the time being used to post about how obvious it is and how silly everyone who disagrees is to actually explain why and contribute to the discussion.

 

[bobbop]

JD was on nhl radio and i dont thin thdg are gonna spend for 7 yrs on anyone this year

I listened to the same interview and I didn't take that away at all. In fact, I was hoping that Kouleas would ask some more insightful questions about the Rangers plans. JD got nothing but softballs thrown at him.

 

[True Blue]

People suggest we wait until next year or the year after that to add a piece. Have those same people looked at those classes? Who are we adding? Taylor Hall who hasnt exactly had a healthy career and will be 29 years old in November after signing a minimum 6 year contract at a high cap hit? Alex Ovechkin at age 36? The 2021 offseason class looks like it will be ready to ride off into the sunset. How about three years from now. 2022 class. Gaudreau will be 28. Forsberg 27. Barkov 26. Maybe 27 year old Seth Jones slips through. But do you really think all, if any, make it to free agency?

People are not suggesting not adding "pieces". People are suggesting not going out and 1.25 years into a rebuild and signing a UFA to max years/max dollars contract that is rife with NTC/NMC. You know this because, and not is no snark, I feel like I have typed this line 862 times. Same people are not suggesting that we look at the future free agent classes of the next two years and sprint out to try to sign a top player. Same people are suggesting that signing the top UFA RIGHT NOW, will mean a) that said UFA playing his in prime year for a team that will not be all that competitive. and b) when the team is competitive, said UFA will no longer be the same player. Same people are saying "let's take a look at what we have and the mosaic as it exists, let the new core develop and THEN go out and spend the money to get a top player. People are also saying that if a top UFA is NOT available, you will have enough assets to go out and get a top player that will enhance your team.

But again, you know all this as this has been hashed and rehashed and regurgitated over and over and over again.

People are right to think not all of our prospects will not workout or hit their ceiling. So we will have to explore other avenues. Signing a player costs no assets. People say well we’ll just trade for that perfect player that is age 23-26 when we need to. Like that player will just be sitting there waiting for us. Not to mention we will pay a pretty penny for that player if he exists.

It is not true that signing him costs no assets. What is costs is a) cap space b) maneuverability when he is a shadow of his self and the team is trying to compete for the Cup. You saying that "such a player will be waiting for us" in an effort to show that he will not. What we have seen is that such players a) HAVE become available and b) HAVE been traded for.

I would rather pay the pretty penny for an asset that aligns with the timeline instead of paying a pretty penny now and having buyer's regret when he is a shadow of the player he is today.

People are saying that Panarin is the right player who is available at the wrong time.

 

[bobbop]

Heres what is so frustrating about the pro panarin arguments here. They are almost universally inundated with really bad logic.

How many teams have been penalized for the cap floor? That is such an overly unrealistic concern to have that it's not even remotely worth bringing up. But points as bad as that keep on coming up from people arguing for panarin. It shows how bad of a move it is.

That's a pretty smug statement.

 

[RGY]

People are not suggesting not adding "pieces". People are suggesting not going out and 1.25 years into a rebuild and signing a UFA to max years/max dollars contract that is rife with NTC/NMC. You know this because, and not is no snark, I feel like I have typed this line 862 times. Same people are not suggesting that we look at the future free agent classes of the next two years and sprint out to try to sign a top player. Same people are suggesting that signing the top UFA RIGHT NOW, will mean a) that said UFA playing his in prime year for a team that will not be all that competitive. and b) when the team is competitive, said UFA will no longer be the same player. Same people are saying "let's take a look at what we have and the mosaic as it exists, let the new core develop and THEN go out and spend the money to get a top player. People are also saying that if a top UFA is NOT available, you will have enough assets to go out and get a top player that will enhance your team.

But again, you know all this as this has been hashed and rehashed and regurgitated over and over and over again.

It is not true that signing him costs no assets. What is costs is a) cap space b) maneuverability when he is a shadow of his self and the team is trying to compete for the Cup. You saying that "such a player will be waiting for us" in an effort to show that he will not. What we have seen is that such players a) HAVE become available and b) HAVE been traded for.

I would rather pay the pretty penny for an asset that aligns with the timeline instead of paying a pretty penny now and having buyer's regret when he is a shadow of the player he is today.

People are saying that Panarin is the right player who is available at the wrong time.

It was really a general post to add to the discussion. Not directed at a specific person or persons, such as yourself.

There have been some people that have mentioned waiting and looking at future free agent classes. Hall has been mentioned.

I was simply looking at those angles.

I think Panarin has 4 great years in him. I think we can be competitive in that time frame.

Id rather have Panarin with 6 years left or 5 years left on his contract then signing Hall for 7+ years or whomever else.

I dont think great players become readily available. I do agree a few have. And the few that may become available, will they be worth trading the assets for. Will they be the right player. We dont know that. But we do know what Panarin is and that he is available right now.

 

[Ghost of jas]

People suggest we wait until next year or the year after that to add a piece. Have those same people looked at those classes? Who are we adding? Taylor Hall who hasnt exactly had a healthy career and will be 29 years old in November after signing a minimum 6 year contract at a high cap hit? Alex Ovechkin at age 36? The 2021 offseason class looks like it will be ready to ride off into the sunset. How about three years from now. 2022 class. Gaudreau will be 28. Forsberg 27. Barkov 26. Maybe 27 year old Seth Jones slips through. But do you really think all, if any, make it to free agency?

People are right to think not all of our prospects will not workout or hit their ceiling. So we will have to explore other avenues. Signing a player costs no assets. People say well we’ll just trade for that perfect player that is age 23-26 when we need to. Like that player will just be sitting there waiting for us. Not to mention we will pay a pretty penny for that player if he exists.

Actually, some people are suggesting we draft and develop those types of players instead. And, that’s where the idea of signing a Panarin is a short cut. Because waiting for Kravtsov and Kakko and Chytil and Miller and whomever else the Rangers take in the first round the next two drafts is going to take time and patience. And there’s no guarantee any of them are going to become that. But, that’s what the plan appears to be. It’s not having to sign players like Gaborik and Richards because you’ve internally developed and nurtured your own high end players. The idea is to use free agency judiciously, not to be a major part of the core. Frankly, AFAIC, if Gorton and company do this right, I could care less if another player like Panarin is available in two or three years. And, you can say that it’s not likely that they’ll be able to do it that way, but, I don’t think anything Gorton is doing right now is based on any past model at this point. And, I am so on board with that idea that I will cherish the day Panarin signs elsewhere.

 

[majormajor]

This shouldn't be a debate between draft-and-develop and signing Panarin. It's not a one or the other. Do both.

 

[Edge]

This shouldn't be a debate between draft-and-develop and signing Panarin. It's not a one or the other. Do both.

And as you've probably read, not everyone thinks those two are compatible. Which is one of the pillars of the debate.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I'm a Jackets fan and I have to say this discussion is amusing. I'm surprised there is any debate about it. Panarin is a building block piece just the same as Kakko is. And it's likely he'll still be an elite forward at age 35. You can tank for a lot of years and not luck into a player that good.

I've also noticed people talking about the ease of finding wingers, not needing a RHS, basing it on the Kreider decision, etc... This is a poor sense of priorities. Panarin is an elite playmaker that drives the play. It doesn't matter what position he plays. If he was a pure sniper I'd understand de-prioritizing his role, but this is a guy that does all the carrying from zone exit to zone entry. Whoever you put him with you get a great line.

35! Haha!

Source: Humans

 

[broadwayblue]

So what do you guys think the Panarin contract will look like...7 years x ?$

 

[Edge]

So what do you guys think the Panarin contract will look like...7 years x ?$

Probably 7 x $10-$11 m.

 

[mrmovies779]

This shouldn't be a debate between draft-and-develop and signing Panarin. It's not a one or the other. Do both.

If only it was that easy...

 

[Maximus]

A. You just totally misrepresented the argument by dishonestly representing it as if we've been talking about just the next two off seasons .

B. This is yet another point that has been addressed ad nauseam. Again this is yet another point that was addressed in so many obvious ways that I dont think it should have ever even been brought up

Like what are you people doing? How manytimes are you all going to reiterate the same points to try to justify a dumb risk? It's a stupid risk with a low likelihood of paying off. The options you're poo pooing are also risks. Just lesser risks. Nothing is guaranteed.

Here's a little tip for you because I'm in a good mood. From some private messages I've received while I was at work, apparently I'm not the only one who detects a severe arrogant tone in your comments on this entire thread. As if YOU the all knowing Shin is the ONLY one who knows how this rebuild should go. And if anyone such as myself and others in here who don't jive with you and believe we can have our cake and eat it too and add Panarin and still continue with the rebuild, we are all dumb and ignorant and have not a clue as to what the heck we are talking about.

There are two sides to the coin here hoss and the poll results are indicative of that as it's pretty close(53% to 47%) as I compose this little retort to you. It's one of the reasons I even started this thread 10 days or so ago because I wanted to gauge the temperature here in Rangerland and it's apparently pretty hot. Both sides make good points including some from you. You seem like a nice enough guy but please cut out the arrogance as it really is not necessary nor does it make what you say any more believable.

We all want the same thing which is for our boys to win a Cup as soon as possible whether or not we get Panarin or not. And yes there are growing pains. But we can be civil about it...cheers bud...

 

[Edge]

I don’t particularly agree with the pro-Panarin crowd. But I do understand it.

I will also say that if the Rangers do go down that path, I don’t see myself fuming over it.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I don’t particularly agree with the pro-Panarin crowd. But I do understand it.

I will also say that if the Rangers do go down that path, I don’t see myself fuming over it.

I wouldn’t be mad if they went down that path, just disappointed

 

[haohmaru]

Rebuild started at the end of last year

Through the end of this year the rebuild is 1.25 years in
Through the end of next year is 2.25 years - Rangers bottom out and are still a lottery pick - Panarin begins the year at 28
Through the end of the year after is 3.25 years - The Rangers begin to rise - Panarin begins the year at 29
Through the end of the year after is 4.25 years - Rangers are competitive - Panarin begins the year at 30
Through the end of the year after is 5.25 years - Rangers are competitive - Panarin begins the year at 30
Rebuild over - Rangers are competing for the Cup - Panarin begins the year at 31

Panarin still has two years left on a contract that is worth at least $22 million. It has complete NTC/NMC on it. During his prime years with the Rangers (the first three) there may only be one trip to playoffs. As the Rangers are competing for the Cup, he is no longer the player that he was. During the last tail end of his contract, the board spends time discussing how when the next compliance buy out is and how much needs to be retained in order to possibly trade him.

Rebuild started summer of 2017 with the Stepan trade or you can make the argument that it started with "the letter" in February of 2018 roughly halfway through the season (counting playoffs).

Panarin, at 33, is 7 1/2 years out from the rebuild or 8 if you're starting the rebuild with Stepan.

You used that age (33) and "competing". I didn't.

Furthermore, there is so much conjecture and speculation above that it's almost nonsensical. You have no idea how many playoff rounds the team will play or how successful the Rangers will be in three years from now or six or what Panarin's production will be, what UFA's we acquire, how well our draft picks develop, what trades we win or lose, etc...

Speculating about next year is hard enough without going 6 years out.