Injury Report: Pacioretty ruptures his Achilles again - placed on season ending IR

[bleedgreen]

I seem to recall that he had a different type of surgery, one that had a quicker recovery time. If so, the next question is about how that compares with respect to the chance of re-injury.

Regardless, put me in the camp that doubts the re-injury was due to Max coming back "too soon".

Well it seems obvious he came back too soon imo, I now wonder if it ever would’ve been long enough. The issue to me when I said it was if the team could’ve slowed him down more or not, or if they were right with him with pushing it forward. I know it was his decision but the team can lean one way or the other. You can’t know how long Max needed for this to not happen. Maybe it was years.

I don’t see how you can argue he didn’t come back too soon, four games and he did it all over again. It wasn’t fully healed imo. It likely never fully heals. In this case not enough for playing pro hockey. Maybe it was never going to be healed enough. What Hank says it right, you always run the chance you may re injure it. With a little time I see it as you don’t ever really know how it’s going to perform or how strong it’ll be under pressure, or how long one person may need for it to be used to this level vs another person. There are best guesses with this sort of thing, a general formula but there are always outliers.

I don’t think you can seriously say that if the first injury hadn’t happened the second one would’ve happened anyways. It’s now a compromised area.

 

[larueskee]

Well this is bad news for Patches. When the Canes win the cup he won't have enough games to qualify for getting his name on it. I suppose they could do some honorary thing but it would mean leaving off a players name that played the standard amount of games required. A healthy patches would have been a boost for sure but there are other names out there that will be available on a rental and or long term basis.

 

[whiskers]

shouldnt he be on long term injury reserve so we can save more money?

 

[Borsig]

shouldnt he be on long term injury reserve so we can save more money?

Probably rules on it being a certain amount of time - Lempo would know

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Well it seems obvious he came back too soon imo, I now wonder if it ever would’ve been long enough. The issue to me when I said it was if the team could’ve slowed him down more or not, or if they were right with him with pushing it forward. I know it was his decision but the team can lean one way or the other. You can’t know how long Max needed for this to not happen. Maybe it was years.

I don’t see how you can argue he didn’t come back too soon, four games and he did it all over again. It wasn’t fully healed imo. It likely never fully heals. In this case not enough for playing pro hockey. Maybe it was never going to be healed enough. What Hank says it right, you always run the chance you may re injure it. With a little time I see it as you don’t ever really know how it’s going to perform or how strong it’ll be under pressure, or how long one person may need for it to be used to this level vs another person. There are best guesses with this sort of thing, a general formula but there are always outliers.

I don’t think you can seriously say that if the first injury hadn’t happened the second one would’ve happened anyways. It’s now a compromised area.

Using no medical evidence to support your claim but then not understanding how someone could come to the opposite conclusion using little medical evidence. The end result can draw conclusions but isn’t a direct correlation to causation. Interesting.

 

[bleedgreen]

Using no medical evidence to support your claim but then not understanding how someone could come to the opposite conclusion using little medical evidence. Interesting.

Lol wut.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

shouldnt he be on long term injury reserve so we can save more money?

It doesn't matter. We are over the cap without LTIR so putting guys on LTIR doesn't allow you to "bank cap space" or "save cap space" like it does when you are under the cap.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Lol wut.

I know its hard for you but…

You’re making leaps on causation that you have no evidence to support and then not understanding how others are making opposite causation assumptions with a similar lack of evidence.

 

[bleedgreen]

I know its hard for you but…

You’re making leaps on causation that you have no evidence to support and then not understanding how others are making opposite causation assumptions with a similar lack of evidence.

Ok tell me more about how it’s hard for me…

Separate issue, he re hurt the same injury on an innocent play a week or two after coming back ahead of time from the injury. I’m sure they imaged everything and it looked good, and I’m sure he showed enough range of motion and strength to come back so he did. The results obviously suggest there’s something more, but he did what he was supposed to do. These aren’t really leaps, just like others aren’t really making leaps. You didn’t respond to theirs but are to mine, curious as well.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I think the argument of "did he come back too soon" is purely semantic, because "the right time to come back" is largely unknowable.

If the point of such an argument is to cast blame on the org, that doesn't make sense to me in this particular case, given the nature of this particular injury. "The right time to come back" could have been exactly when he came back, or in another month, or next season, or never. The only way to know if a player is "ready" is to do whatever objective tests are required for clearance, and then to see if the player can perform. All of that happened, and he was clearly performing at a high level.

It just didn't work out. Man is mortal.

 

[Ole Gil]

I think the argument of "did he come back too soon" is purely semantic, because "the right time to come back" is largely unknowable.

If the point of such an argument is to cast blame on the org, that doesn't make sense to me in this particular case, given the nature of this particular injury. "The right time to come back" could have been exactly when he came back, or in another month, or next season, or never. The only way to know if a player is "ready" is to do whatever objective tests are required for clearance, and then to see if the player can perform. All of that happened, and he was clearly performing at a high level.

It just didn't work out. Man is mortal.

Yup, At a certain point, you just cross your fingers and hope it holds up. We see it all the time in sports with injuries that keep recurring rushed back or not.

 

[surfzone365]

I haven’t commented on this topic yet because like the rest of you, I’m absolutely sickened by this news and processing it all… not just for the team impact but for Max more importantly. I have no regrets getting my 25th anniversary jersey with Max’s number. Win it for Patches!

 

[surfzone365]

Yup, At a certain point, you just cross your fingers and hope it holds up. We see it all the time in sports with injuries that keep recurring rushed back or not.

Yep. Unfortunately, when these things happen, the armchair doctors and "what-if" folks are going to flood the forums with their take. At the end of the day, each person is different and its a roll of the dice on timing and recovery methods. Win some, lose some.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think the argument of "did he come back too soon" is purely semantic, because "the right time to come back" is largely unknowable.

If the point of such an argument is to cast blame on the org, that doesn't make sense to me in this particular case, given the nature of this particular injury. "The right time to come back" could have been exactly when he came back, or in another month, or next season, or never. The only way to know if a player is "ready" is to do whatever objective tests are required for clearance, and then to see if the player can perform. All of that happened, and he was clearly performing at a high level.

It just didn't work out. Man is mortal.

I think initially I wanted to hear more about it, to me the results do speak for themselves but I more than know myself that there’s no real way to know when you’re safe to come back. You pass the tests and make the best decision you can. He did come back earlier than originally expected so its easy to wonder, but I agree with you in the end. It’s highly unlikely to be anything with the team. I think for me it came from Rod saying now twice that they’re waiting on Kase after the player has been said to be anxious about coming back early, and his statements a couple of times about how it seemed Anderson was ready earlier than he came back. It made Rod sound impatient but of course there’s a lot more to the decisions then anything Rod would say. I doubt he has any say at all.

I’m going through it myself. I skied today for the second time since coming back from my own knee procedure. My dept is big, and we’re lucky to have the same surgeons the Broncos use for their guys. I’ve been cleared to resume life, and cleared for work despite still being in some pain which is normal. It was a workers comp thing, so if it gets re hurt at work the process starts over and maybe internally there’s some questions about who cleared me but nothing really comes with it. If I hurt it innocently on a green run where nothing happened, it just started hurting they’d say I pushed it too hard and did something too soon despite them saying I could do it. It’s the way of the world. I did everything they told me to do, and was told I shouldn’t be able to hurt it again.

Like you say it’s unknowable. Maybe six weeks was enough, maybe my particular knee needs two years before resuming. You pass the tests, keep working on it and get on with life.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I think initially I wanted to hear more about it, to me the results do speak for themselves but I more than know myself that there’s no real way to know when you’re safe to come back. You pass the tests and make the best decision you can. He did come back earlier than originally expected so its easy to wonder, but I agree with you in the end. It’s highly unlikely to be anything with the team. I think for me it came from Rod saying now twice that they’re waiting on Kase after the player has been said to be anxious about coming back early, and his statements a couple of times about how it seemed Anderson was ready earlier than he came back. It made Rod sound impatient but of course there’s a lot more to the decisions then anything Rod would say. I doubt he has any say at all.

I’m going through it myself. I skied today for the second time since coming back from my own knee procedure. My dept is big, and we’re lucky to have the same surgeons the Broncos use for their guys. I’ve been cleared to resume life, and cleared for work despite still being in some pain which is normal. It was a workers comp thing, so if it gets re hurt at work the process starts over and maybe internally there’s some questions about who cleared me but nothing really comes with it. If I hurt it innocently on a green run where nothing happened, it just started hurting they’d say I pushed it too hard and did something too soon despite them saying I could do it. It’s the way of the world. I did everything they told me to do, and was told I shouldn’t be able to hurt it again.

Like you say it’s unknowable. Maybe six weeks was enough, maybe my particular knee needs two years before resuming. You pass the tests, keep working on it and get on with life.

Hang in there. Getting old sucks, but it's better than the alternative.

Time to go do my daily old man stretching now...

 

[LakeLivin]

Well it seems obvious he came back too soon imo, I now wonder if it ever would’ve been long enough. The issue to me when I said it was if the team could’ve slowed him down more or not, or if they were right with him with pushing it forward. I know it was his decision but the team can lean one way or the other. You can’t know how long Max needed for this to not happen. Maybe it was years.

I don’t see how you can argue he didn’t come back too soon, four games and he did it all over again. It wasn’t fully healed imo. It likely never fully heals. In this case not enough for playing pro hockey. Maybe it was never going to be healed enough. What Hank says it right, you always run the chance you may re injure it. With a little time I see it as you don’t ever really know how it’s going to perform or how strong it’ll be under pressure, or how long one person may need for it to be used to this level vs another person. There are best guesses with this sort of thing, a general formula but there are always outliers.

I don’t think you can seriously say that if the first injury hadn’t happened the second one would’ve happened anyways. It’s now a compromised area.

You seem to be falling into the correlation vs. causation fallacy trap in stating that he must have come back too soon because he re-injured it. But you acknowledge that the re-injury might not have been caused by his return date, lol.

Some info from an interview with Patches in The Athletic that might be relevant to his original projected return date:

Patches ended up getting a different surgical technique than other players with a similar tear. It's less invasive and leaves less scar tissue which he said could speed up the healing process by up to 2 months. I'm guessing that the original projected date was a conservative one based on the typical surgery, not one based on the surgery he actually got. But now I wonder if the newer technique could have possibly been less effective. Or, is it essentially the same repair, just a less invasive way of doing it?

Patches said he wanted to make sure he didn't push it too far and come back too quickly, and that he was working with the Canes trainers with that in mind.

Even though he re-injured the tendon after just 4 games back it sounds like he was skating hard at the time of the interview (Nov 25). And we know he was participating in full contact practices for a while, as well, so it's not like he just started stressing the tendon 2 weeks ago.

Bottom line is that I'm certainly not arguing that he couldn't have re-injured it by coming back too soon; we'll never know for sure. It's just my gut feel that he didn't based on Patches has said, the fact that the organization has been conservative with respect to other player injuries this season, and that there was no reason at all for him to rush back.

edit: good luck with your rehab / recovery; hopefully it will ultimately be a 100% successful outcome.

 

[bleedgreen]

You seem to be falling into the correlation vs. causation fallacy trap in stating that he must have come back too soon because he re-injured it. But you acknowledge that the re-injury might not have been caused by his return date, lol.

Some info from an interview with Patches in The Athletic that might be relevant to his original projected return date:

Patches ended up getting a different surgical technique than other players with a similar tear. It's less invasive and leaves less scar tissue which he said could speed up the healing process by up to 2 months. I'm guessing that the original projected date was a conservative one based on the typical surgery, not one based on the surgery he actually got. But now I wonder if the newer technique could have possibly been less effective. Or, is it essentially the same repair, just a less invasive way of doing it?

Patches said he wanted to make sure he didn't push it too far and come back too quickly, and that he was working with the Canes trainers with that in mind.

Even though he re-injured the tendon after just 4 games back it sounds like he was skating hard at the time of the interview (Nov 25). And we know he was participating in full contact practices for a while, as well, so it's not like he just started stressing the tendon 2 weeks ago.

Bottom line is that I'm certainly not arguing that he couldn't have re-injured it by coming back too soon; we'll never know for sure. It's just my gut feel that he didn't based on Patches has said, the fact that the organization has been conservative with respect to other player injuries this season, and that there was no reason at all for him to rush back.

edit: good luck with your rehab / recovery; hopefully it will ultimately be a 100% successful outcome.

The new way definitely sounded less invasive and that plays a role in the time table, like you’re saying it would be interesting to see if there’s an effectiveness difference. I understand they were pushing as best they can before he came back, but there’s nothing like actual games. For conditioning or for testing limits. I agree they must’ve pushed as best they can, but nothing really mattered till he was back. As far as return date back I assumed they had the new technique in mind, you have to remember Williams came back even quicker back in the day. The initial return dates tend to be loose guidelines of course, and people can come back anytime based on rehab.

As far as my fluctuation on what I believe, I know that what I do to some extent believe is unpopular so I don’t really want to go too deep with it. I don’t really care, and there’s no way to prove one way vs the other. I don’t need to be right and I absolutely hear everyones thoughts and respect them. I have some background in all this and a lot of personal life experiences for myself and others close to me to lean on. When I say what I’ve said it comes across as too simple, that it must’ve been too soon because it was re injured. I’m not trying to state that the way it’s coming off. There’s no guarantee you ever get back from any injury, even at their levels of fitness and strength. Between wanting to be part of the new team and all the pressures of needing a new contract this guy was motivated to get back and be part of the team same as a guy like Ferland was a few years ago. I disagree that the team is super conservative, based on the things I’ve mentioned before but I dont believe they would push anyone back before they should. Imaging can’t show you that the adhesion won’t release again, only that it’s healed. Or that the tendon is going to eventually fail due to the pressures being put in it from other compensations in the body, something in the stride or something like that. I do think there’s a good chance he needed longer (something individual to him not based on charts or common rates of recovery) if it was going to work out for him, but of course there’s no proof and it doesn’t matter in the end. Moving on, and nothing but best wishes for Max. Thanks for the positive thoughts!

 

[Negan4Coach]

Just when your posts couldn’t get more idiotic, you let another one fly.

I told you so is really cool when a dude’s career is on the line and no one has ever come back from an achilles injury before.

The real idiocy was thinking that after suffering such an injury, that'd he'd waltz back in and be the savior of the team.

And the team for thinking the same thing and pushing his recovery instead of LTIR him for the year and find a replacement.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Just checking in to ask if Pepperidge Farm remembers when I was like “rupturing an achilles is a BFD and counting on him to waltz back in here and save the day is not a good plan” and was told something to the effect of “those injuries are fully recoverable! Not a problem” or words to that effect

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The real idiocy was thinking that after suffering such an injury, that'd he'd waltz back in and be the savior of the team.

Nobody thought he'd be a "savior", you just like to exaggerate, as usual

And the team for thinking the same thing and pushing his recovery instead of LTIR him for the year and find a replacement.

You do realize that:
1) He pushed himself. the article I read said that the Canes trainers had to reign him back in at times.
2) They can still LTIR him and find a replacement. In fact, it's more likely to find a better replacement now (since many teams now know they aren't going to make the playoffs and will now be selling) than it would have been when he initially injured it, since fewer teams would have been selling then.

 

[LakeLivin]

The real idiocy was thinking that after suffering such an injury, that'd he'd waltz back in and be the savior of the team.

And the team for thinking the same thing and pushing his recovery instead of LTIR him for the year and find a replacement.

From what I read he was skating around November 10th, skating hard no more than 2 weeks later, and I'm not sure when he started full contact practices, but it had to be a number of weeks before actual games. Were any of those too soon? As we've been discussing, who knows? But I've yet to hear any evidence at all that the team pushed his recovery. If, as Pacioretty stated, both he and the team medical staff approached his rehab specifically trying to avoid rushing him back, and both felt he was ready, what should they have done? Keep him out till when, given that we haven't heard that more time out would have lessened the chances of re-injury at that point? (any medical experts want to weigh in on that?)

If his achilles was going to pop again regardless of when he came back (which is a real possibility, again, we'll never know for sure), aren't they better off knowing now? The Borg has time to make adjustments for this years playoffs and can also effectively plan for next years roster.

This team has areas it needs to improve, but do you really think it's so flawed it needs a "savior"? From what I saw in his brief time back, if the achilles held up it certainly looked to me like he'd have made a significant difference going forward this season. A healthy Patches with maybe shoring up the bottom D pair and I'd have felt pretty good about our chances. And I suspect the Borg will still make a couple moves that will leave me feeling reasonably optimistic about our chances. Unfortunately, no matter what they might have done, or do from this point on, there's no guarantees. In either case, the Canes will still not be so much better than a couple other teams that a Cup will be a lock. There are no more 1960s Boston Celtics or 1970s Cincinnati Reds where you can expect a championship without a little luck.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

The real idiocy was thinking that after suffering such an injury, that'd he'd waltz back in and be the savior of the team.

The real idiocy is thinking that the team needed saving.

Which seems to be the particular kind that you specialize in these days.

 

[Borsig]

I feel like he's done. If he isn't, maybe he tries to come back next season on a very cheap 1 year or 2 year deal. Not many people are going to take a chance on him after this.

 

[LakeLivin]

I feel like he's done. If he isn't, maybe he tries to come back next season on a very cheap 1 year or 2 year deal. Not many people are going to take a chance on him after this.

Unfortunately I think you're right. As you say, coming back would most likely be on a cheap 1 year deal (can't see anyone gambling on even 2) and he's got to weigh that against the odds of popping the achilles again, which I think would be a lot higher than after the first surgery. And I wonder how much hunger he still has to play given those considerations? Here's a quote of his from an interview two months ago: "I'd rather retire than be away from family. That's not to say anything negative about hockey or where I'm at, but my family is the most important thing to me in the world."

If he does come back I'm thinking it would only be with the Canes. In that Athletic interview he talked about how quickly the family settled into the area and how much they like it here. He mentioned how family oriented the organization is, that the kids are in an "unbelievable school", and that they're striving in youth hockey here.

I'm thinking the best chance of him playing again might be if he retires, gets the surgery, and rehabs on kind of a "not planning on it, but let's not completely close the door" basis and comes out of retirement kind of like Willy did a couple seasons ago.

 

[Negan4Coach]

View attachment 639588

From what I read he was skating around November 10th, skating hard no more than 2 weeks later, and I'm not sure when he started full contact practices, but it had to be a number of weeks before actual games. Were any of those too soon? As we've been discussing, who knows? But I've yet to hear any evidence at all that the team pushed his recovery. If, as Pacioretty stated, both he and the team medical staff approached his rehab specifically trying to avoid rushing him back, and both felt he was ready, what should they have done? Keep him out till when, given that we haven't heard that more time out would have lessened the chances of re-injury at that point? (any medical experts want to weigh in on that?)

If his achilles was going to pop again regardless of when he came back (which is a real possibility, again, we'll never know for sure), aren't they better off knowing now? The Borg has time to make adjustments for this years playoffs and can also effectively plan for next years roster.

This team has areas it needs to improve, but do you really think it's so flawed it needs a "savior"? From what I saw in his brief time back, if the achilles held up it certainly looked to me like he'd have made a significant difference going forward this season. A healthy Patches with maybe shoring up the bottom D pair and I'd have felt pretty good about our chances. And I suspect the Borg will still make a couple moves that will leave me feeling reasonably optimistic about our chances. Unfortunately, no matter what they might have done, or do from this point on, there's no guarantees. In either case, the Canes will still not be so much better than a couple other teams that a Cup will be a lock. There are no more 1960s Boston Celtics or 1970s Cincinnati Reds where you can expect a championship without a little luck.

Yeah, I get all that, fine.

I never said we needed a "savior"- I have my complaints about the way this team is structured and plays because I think it doesn't translate well in the playoffs (and apparently many others feel the same way).

My issue is when these concerns would surface- certain individuals would be all like "oh, don't worry about it- when Patches is back, it'll solve everything". And when I expressed a negative outlook as to the prospect of him successfully returning from such a grevious injury, I was insulted and told that an achilles tendon severing was basically NBD in hockey.

Soooooo....Just thought I'd revisit that a bit- and of course, I'm insulted again as that seems to be the coin of the realm on this board when people go against the Pollyannish outlook of the Cult of The Borg.