Friedman: Pacioretty in "30 Thoughts"

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I'm sorry, how did Anaheim do last year with Rakell? That's right, not as well as they wanted. So they can do what the St.Louis Blues did and just plug away for years...You had a different GM when you won the cup, and 3 hall of fame players, arguably the 2 best defensemen of their generation, guys who wouldn't be out of place on an all-time roster. None of them were drafted by the team so...yeah Anaheim went out and acquired them...Chris Pronger was traded for. So yeah Anaheim did, during their cup run give up a 7th overall and a 9th overall drafted player because that's what they traded for Pronger, 2 of their own drafted players. It's been so long since then that all 3 of them are essentially never going to play an NHL game and it's irrelevant but you brought it up.

He's the best young forward you have at this moment, in 2 years that might not be the case. 3 years and a cup finals appearance....or 6 years and the 2nd round or 1st round exit each year. It's not like Chicago and LA have laid down any kind of blueprint for winning now.

You're crazy for wanting to hang onto a so far one time 20 goal scorer instead of putting a 30ish goal scorer into the line up with the 2 best linemates he'll ever play with in the NHL. Perry and Getzlaf need help now...they don't need help for the next 6 years.

God what an awful mentality... Every teams goal is to win... asking how a team did with a certain player makes him expendable by that logic how did the oilers do with McDavid last year?


The reason why we lost was offensive depth... now trading arguably our most skilled forward for a slightly better scoring forward doesn't really fix that situation... if you think the difference between rakell and patches = a championship you are dead wrong... now if we can trade from a position of strength(defense) for a top 6 forward, and keep rakell + the new forward, that is a move that improves the forward depth a ton.


Patches = 23 games 5 goals 10 assist
Fowler = 23 games 7 goals 7 assist
Rakell = 14 gamees 9 goals 4 assist

And fowler and rakell look like they are playing their best hockey of their careers, ill hold on to them. Patches can score but I don't think their is a move to be made involving Rakell or fower for him. I would be willing to bet Rakell outscores patches this season.

 

[JusticeBeaver]

he didnt just turn 23.Rakell and i share a bday he will 24 this playoff season.whereas pacioretty literally just turned 28.. its 4 year difference

at that age pacioretty had a 60pt season under his belt and was fnishing his 39 goal season

i understand you love rakell.. but dont undervalue other players.


pacioretty has 18 points in 31 games

it is not exactly horrible

Not horrible no, I think it's more about his play and leadership. He plays very uninspiring hockey. Gliding in the o zone, bad puck decisions. Looks lost with the puck on the power play, holds it way too long then tries a long wrister.

He still has a lethal shot, and great acceleration for his size. After last season and the supposed comments this summer by Therein he just looks like an empty shell. I would not be surprised to see Weber wearing the C soon.

 

[liquiduck]

this is his 24th year , rakell, and next year will be his 25th

when pacioretty turn 24 he score 33 g and 65 pts. and the following year when he turned 25 he scored 39 goals.

like i said before, fans on hf boards dont make the value of a player.

The regular season will be over before Rakell turns 24. Likely, ansheims season will be over before he turns 24. This is not his "24th" season. Yes Patches broke out, right around the same age Rakell is breaking out now. Imagine that.

 

[CHaracter79]

God what an awful mentality... Every teams goal is to win... asking how a team did with a certain player makes him expendable by that logic how did the oilers do with McDavid last year?


The reason why we lost was offensive depth... now trading arguably our most skilled forward for a slightly better scoring forward doesn't really fix that situation... if you think the difference between rakell and patches = a championship you are dead wrong... now if we can trade from a position of strength(defense) for a top 6 forward, and keep rakell + the new forward, that is a move that improves the forward depth a ton.


Patches = 23 games 5 goals 10 assist
Fowler = 23 games 7 goals 7 assist
Rakell = 14 gamees 9 goals 4 assist

And fowler and rakell look like they are playing their best hockey of their careers, ill hold on to them. Patches can score but I don't think their is a move to be made involving Rakell or fower for him. I would be willing to bet Rakell outscores patches this season.

ryan getzlaf only has two goals this year.. does this mean something to you? does it lower his value because he had a bad start? does galchenyuk value rise more then this summer because he is on pace for 80pts?

i understand the love of a player on your team... but value wise..

rakell and fowler for pacioretty + is very close

just like i understand that trading for perry would prob cost galchenyuk.

would either of us make the trades... who knows...

strictly value here though

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Yeah, the whole 16 games and 1 goal he had that playoff year right? Pump the brakes just a bit. 27 playoffs games in his career and 5 points. Pump the brakes.

I don't believe he's the key to success how could I or anyone know that? He's something different, proven and a higher level. The Ducks can choose to stagnate and chug along, or make a move and see what happens. See if someone like Pacioretty will put them on the next level for a 4.5 million dollar cap hit.

Nobody is going to replace Getz or Perry, they can take their roster spot, salary, they're generational players and you don't just plug in or find someone like them and call it a day. They're going to have to change the team once they retire. Where do you think Anaheim's future is? In replacing these two like for like? The Ducks are probably screwed once they retire. They don't seem to have 2 guys who are playing for team Canada for a decade waiting in their system. Think of the Ducks after Niedermayer and Pronger left...Trading Rakell and one of their D men for Pacioretty is a hell of a deal for them for the next 3 years.

We have a few young forwards on the currant roster, we have some pretty good prospects in our system(steel soy jones etc) . Our defense and goaltending should be pretty strong. And you are acting like getzlaf perry and kesler are retiring in a year, Getzlaf/kesler are playing very strong hockey right now. Perry Getzlaf and Kesler have a few more years of being stars and they will still be solid productive players after that.

Patches replacing rakell doesn't make us a cup champion, we should look to move a defensemen for forward help, if we decide to look for help.

 

[liquiduck]

You realize it's expected they get better, doesn't mean it happens, look at the Oilers as an extreme and lazy example. You're right, their future is on their blueline which is why Rakell is expendable because they can still trade defensemen to fill any holes he would leave. Anaheim only needs 4 top 4 defensemen, 2 top 2...they have decisions to make in the future and it's easier for them to pick up a 5,6,7th d man in a trade or FA than it is a top 4 and 2 which they already have.

No part of this post makes sense.
1) Rakell IS getting better. We are currently watching it happen. It's not theoretical.
2) having a deep defense and being shallow with young forward talent doesent equate to trade the young forward talent you have and replace with assets you moved on defense. It equals get MORE young forward talent to GO ALONG with the forward talent you ALREADY have.
3). Yes, they have choices to make on the blue line. But not this season.

 

[liquiduck]

ryan getzlaf only has two goals this year.. does this mean something to you? does it lower his value because he had a bad start? does galchenyuk value rise more then this summer because he is on pace for 80pts?

i understand the love of a player on your team... but value wise..

rakell and fowler for pacioretty + is very close

just like i understand that trading for perry would prob cost galchenyuk.

would either of us make the trades... who knows...


strictly value here though

Getzlaf is also a ppg player right now despite only having two goals. He didn't have his 1st goal last year until January. His trade value is irrelevant because he's not going anywhere.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

LOL the ducks are not trading Rakell and Fowler for Patches, get real. Fowler has been the ducks most consistent player and best dman, and Rakell is a young top 6 forward signed to a great contract.

 

[CHaracter79]

The regular season will be over before Rakell turns 24. Likely, ansheims season will be over before he turns 24. This is not his "24th" season. Yes Patches broke out, right around the same age Rakell is breaking out now. Imagine that.

if you want to get detailed..

2011-2012 the year patches had 65 points he was 23 and didnt turn 24 until 8 months later.

2012-2013 the year he scored 39 goals(the following year) he turned 24 two months after it began

regardless, Pacioretty is 5th in goals scored the last five years. he has played mostly with Desharnais as his center and on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league year in year out.

I get you love rakell... there is just no comparing in value right now. im sorry if you feel differently and i respect you opinion.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

ryan getzlaf only has two goals this year.. does this mean something to you? does it lower his value because he had a bad start? does galchenyuk value rise more then this summer because he is on pace for 80pts?

i understand the love of a player on your team... but value wise..

rakell and fowler for pacioretty + is very close

just like i understand that trading for perry would prob cost galchenyuk.

would either of us make the trades... who knows...

strictly value here though

Getzlaf not scoring goals never really worries me its pretty normal, honestly Anaheim is pretty notorious for starting the season kinda slow.

Strictly value, if I'm trading fowler + Rakell, id be looking at Galchenyuk.... I didn't say patches wasn't valuable but if were under the impression we are trying to win a cup how does replacing our #1/2 dmen + a top 6 forward(with upside) make us a better team? Specially when both are playing the best hockey of their career.

There isn't really a significant piece to add to patches that makes us a better team after that(realistically speaking). Rakell played center to start his career and transitioning over to wing, hes getting mins @ the top line wing this season and making the best of it id rather hold on to that and see how he does. I don't think we have a realistic shot at a cup right now, I think that move decreases our chances.

If I'm looking to win a cup, my move is involved with moving Vatanen for forward help.

 

[CHaracter79]

Getzlaf is also a ppg player right now despite only having two goals. He didn't have his 1st goal last year until January. His trade value is irrelevant because he's not going anywhere.

PAcioretty had more points then getzlaf last season. and he went through a streak of 1 goal in 11 games at soem point.

my point was you dont take a sample of 15 games to judge the value of a person. otherwise i agree and hope getzlaf isnt going anywhere

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

if you want to get detailed..

2011-2012 the year patches had 65 points he was 23 and didnt turn 24 until 8 months later.

2012-2013 the year he scored 39 goals(the following year) he turned 24 two months after it began

regardless, Pacioretty is 5th in goals scored the last five years. he has played mostly with Desharnais as his center and on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league year in year out.

I get you love rakell... there is just no comparing in value right now. im sorry if you feel differently and i respect you opinion.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that patches is worth more right now, patches is a great player... id love to have patches but at the expense of fowler + rakell not really.

If we are making a move its to help win a cup, moving rakell for patches is just a replacement, doesn't help our weak spot which is forward depth.

 

[CHaracter79]

Getzlaf not scoring goals never really worries me its pretty normal, honestly Anaheim is pretty notorious for starting the season kinda slow.

Strictly value, if I'm trading fowler + Rakell, id be looking at Galchenyuk.... I didn't say patches wasn't valuable but if were under the impression we are trying to win a cup how does replacing our #1/2 dmen + a top 6 forward(with upside) make us a better team? Specially when both are playing the best hockey of their career.

There isn't really a significant piece to add to patches that makes us a better team after that(realistically speaking). Rakell played center to start his career and transitioning over to wing, hes getting mins @ the top line wing this season and making the best of it id rather hold on to that and see how he does. I don't think we have a realistic shot at a cup right now, I think that move decreases our chances.

If I'm looking to win a cup, my move is involved with moving Vatanen for forward help.

what are you adding to fowler, rakell to have galchenyuk.. im down if the offer is right.

 

[liquiduck]

if you want to get detailed..

2011-2012 the year patches had 65 points he was 23 and didnt turn 24 until 8 months later.

2012-2013 the year he scored 39 goals(the following year) he turned 24 two months after it began

regardless, Pacioretty is 5th in goals scored the last five years. he has played mostly with Desharnais as his center and on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league year in year out.

I get you love rakell... there is just no comparing in value right now. im sorry if you feel differently and i respect you opinion.

He turned 24 6 months later but sure. That's pretty much exactly what I said. Id say 5 months apart is "around the same age", which again is what I already said.

I'm not arguing on value at all. I'm saying a trade like that doesent make any sense from a Anaheim point of view.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

PAcioretty had more points then getzlaf last season. and he went through a streak of 1 goal in 11 games at soem point.

my point was you dont take a sample of 15 games to judge the value of a person. otherwise i agree and hope getzlaf isnt going anywhere

You must have missed the start of the ducks season.. we scored 10 goals in 10 games to start the season.

 

[CHaracter79]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that patches is worth more right now, patches is a great player... id love to have patches but at the expense of fowler + rakell not really.

If we are making a move its to help win a cup, moving rakell for patches is just a replacement, doesn't help our weak spot which is forward depth.

i did say a +

was thinking soemthing like

Rakell
Fowler


for

patches
beaulieu

 

[Viqsi]

Saad and PLD for Max and Lehkonen

Oh, wow. You should be feeling deep, personal, overwhelming shame for even briefly thinking about this idea, let alone going so far as to write it down and post it on a public message board.

* * *​

in spite of what everyone in here thinks..
patches >>> Rakell.

it shouldnt even be a discussion. crazy how some people undervalue habs players. We are not trading DD or some prospect. its PAcioretty. hes fifth in goals in the league in the last 5 years. and his center was David Desharnais. PAcioretty would put up 40 goals with Anaheim. having 39 with desharnais is not soemthing alot of players can do.

IF im trading pacioretty to Anaheim... its rakell and fowler.. small plus on our end maybe.. but thats about it.. rakell hasnt proven anything. he is a 40 point plyer. its all about potential

becuase he has 13 points in 14 games this years doesnt mean that much. if thats the case.. galchenyuk is a 80pts player.

PAcioretty is streaky. hell go 15 games with 6 points.. then all of sudden hell score 8 goals in 7 games... or somethign like that

Pacioretty has 15 points in 23 games and every media, fan and hf'er say he is struggling. he is 53rd in the league in scoring.. and is considered to be having a bad year. with two points next game is top 25 in scoring. i mean its crazy

no reason to trade patches.. but if you do.. he is easily worth a young top 6 and top4 d man.

get real hf

He's worth that to Montreal, for sure. He does not seem to be worth that to the rest of the League. Which is not surprising, because he is a middle-aged scoring winger. Among the best if not THE best in that category, but that is still not exactly a high value category.

 

[anezthes]

Rakell
Fowler


for

patches
beaulieu

We are as interested in trading Rakell and Fowler as you are Galchenyuk and Gallagher.

 

[liquiduck]

PAcioretty had more points then getzlaf last season. and he went through a streak of 1 goal in 11 games at soem point.

my point was you dont take a sample of 15 games to judge the value of a person. otherwise i agree and hope getzlaf isnt going anywhere

That's great. It's also besides the point. It's not just a 15 game sample. This is linear progression from one year to the next. We've been watching Rakell for a long time now. Probably longer than a lot of habs fans even knew who he was.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

what are you adding to fowler, rakell to have galchenyuk.. im down if the offer is right.

Well the trade doesn't make sense right now as much as I like Galchenyuk we have good center depth. But I'm guessing Rakell + fowler would get it done and if there was an add it wouldn't be a whole lot.

For reference

Jones got johanson
Larsson got Hall

Id say fowler is in the middle of those 2 players... not to mention fowler + weber would be an amazing pairing, perfect player for fowler in my honest opinion.

 

[liquiduck]

i did say a +

was thinking soemthing like

Rakell
Fowler


for

patches
beaulieu

And I'd still politely, but emphatically say no thank you.

 

[CHaracter79]

You must have missed the start of the ducks season.. we scored 10 goals in 10 games to start the season.

that kind of stuff happens in the NHL. The habs gave up 17 goals in three games to start november.

they are still #2 in goals against.

streaks are a part of sports. Patches would fit right in.. at one point two years ago he has 2 goals in 17 games and then had something ridiculous like 14goals in 7

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

i did say a +

was thinking soemthing like

Rakell
Fowler


for

patches
beaulieu

That is prob close strictly value wise... but doesn't make us a better team imo, so don't see it happening.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

that kind of stuff happens in the NHL. The habs gave up 17 goals in three games to start november.

they are still #2 in goals against.

streaks are a part of sports. Patches would fit right in.. at one point two years ago he has 2 goals in 17 games and then had something ridiculous like 14goals in 7

Oh I don't disagree I think patches would be a great fit in Anaheim but as an add to our forward core, not a replacement ... but I don't see a situation where it really works out.... we are both in similar spots where we are trying to make a cup team without losing too much. I think preseason there was

Fowler +
for Patches

I could prob get behind that, but I don't think montreeal can move patches without replacing his scoring, and they are a solid playoff contender wouldn't make much sense. If we could add a player like tatar/patches/jvr etc without losing rakell that would be idealy what we are aiming at.


We are strong @ defense position and I think that's where youll see a move to improve our forward group. Value wise what you have said is prob close or near but I think building a better team, we would be better off moving a dmen for a scoring forward.

 

[Exit Dose]

if you want to get detailed..

2011-2012 the year patches had 65 points he was 23 and didnt turn 24 until 8 months later.

2012-2013 the year he scored 39 goals(the following year) he turned 24 two months after it began

regardless, Pacioretty is 5th in goals scored the last five years. he has played mostly with Desharnais as his center and on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league year in year out.

I get you love rakell... there is just no comparing in value right now. im sorry if you feel differently and i respect you opinion.

What you think Rakell's value should be doesn't matter. He just re-signed. He's playing to the level his potential portended. Anaheim isn't going to suddenly evaluate what his value was a year ago. Fowler is Anaheim's best defenseman this year. He's been their best defenseman in past seasons, too. That doesn't suddenly fall to the side of the road because you don't feel he's worth what he is to the Ducks. Fowler + Rakell for Pacioretty does nothing for Anaheim. Nothing. It's a downgrade of the roster.