P.K. Subban

[Cole Caulifield]

I think one of the key points is that the Nashville game is just 1 game... yes, he *has* played some games like that this year, and if he had played 30 of them, we'd all be saying that he is better. But it hasn't been close to 30. Still, the fact that some of those games are there still makes it clear that there is no decline and no overall reason for concern. He can still do it, and will. And I have faith that it will become more frequent again.

I would have said he has done *more* pointless spin-o-ramas, especially in his own zone, this year. And lost the puck on a few of them. And thrown the puck away to nowhere even more often.

Part of him throwing the puck away uselessly, however, is just the gameplan/style of the team. Same with the reduction in his physicality. They are just playing risk-averse, and even though he still does unconventional things at times that are far from risk-averse in isolation, the overall style does chew into his ability to control a game with his natural talent. But I think he's gradually figuring out that he can live outside that. He has a $9M cap hit now and they don't bench him when he makes a goofy play or takes a bad penalty. He doesn't have to be confrontational or obvious about it, but he can start to exert his willpower a little more than he used to be able to, push the envelope of conformance to the gameplan. I think he's getting that, and is going to unleash that in the second half.

I think that post is bang on.

Overall I think Subban is moving forward toward being a better player. Part of it involves changing some of his natural instincts that have lead him to be one of the best. The opposition has adjusted to him. He needs to pick his spots more. And that is the most difficult part of growing up as a player I'd think.

At times this season I was disappointed in his play. But it must be hard for him to reign some of his instincts in and play in a more cerebral manner since he's a natural. But sometimes, team play and overall team directives have to take over.

I have never been worried about Subban taking that next step. No matter who the coach is and what happens, I have the utmost faith that he will step up and do what he needs to do. He's a gamer through and through. I'd have given him big money from the start.

EDIT:

About physicality. That is the one part of his game I've always hated. For every Marchand hit he's done there must have been 5-6 missed hits leading to odd man rushes. He has terrible .. absolutely terrible timing. He's not very good at this. Especially in the last few seasons. But I feel he's lost a little bit of speed and agility over the past few seasons in favor of more mass. But yeah I really don't feel he's there to make big hits. And against good players... which he will be facing more often than not.. they won't get caught like that as easily..

 

[Blind Gardien]

@BG Yep, I agree that he's a better player now.

@LG Yep, he's a better player now.

Well, it's a rose-coloured viewpoint anyway. Basically, I think he is "secretly" a better player, because he's young and super-skilled, and young super-skilled players just do get better with experience and added strength. And we've seen 5 or 6 games where he shows that, indeed, secretly, that betterness is coming along. But he has still "played worse" overall, on a full-season-so-far basis than he basically ever has in the NHL. Take the glass half full or half empty approach, I guess.

If you just wanted to throw away the rose-coloured glasses, he's a worse player now, and we do not agree at all.

But on the bright side, he makes $9M and the coach has to play him more and in more situations at least, so getting more of him is a better thing too, even when he's playing slightly worse overall. He's still our best defenseman, so more of a good thing is still better for us than not enough of a great thing.

 

[FF de Mars]

LOL @ Le Rideau Vert having a play with PK Subban portrayed by a white guy painted in black. What is this, 1815 ? The worst part is that they just got a grant of 300 000$ from the Arts Council... I know it because I checked their communiqué when I didn't get mine this time !

http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2015/01/20/mcgill-professor-takes-aim-at-blackface-in-quebec/

 

[68*]

When most players are on vacation somewhere getting a nice tan, PK is squatting in TO. Beast.

http://instagram.com/p/yLCxnPOErK/

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

LOL @ Le Rideau Vert having a play with PK Subban portrayed by a white guy painted in black. What is this, 1815 ? The worst part is that they just got a grant of 300 000$ from the Arts Council... I know it because I checked their communiqué when I didn't get mine this time !

http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2015/01/20/mcgill-professor-takes-aim-at-blackface-in-quebec/

There was a thread similar to this last year. Lots of people wondering what the problem was with putting people in blackface.

Some folks just no ****ing clue what's going on. Unbelievable to see this in the 21st century.

 

[Skip Bayless]

lol...

 

[Cole Caulifield]

LOL @ Le Rideau Vert having a play with PK Subban portrayed by a white guy painted in black. What is this, 1815 ? The worst part is that they just got a grant of 300 000$ from the Arts Council... I know it because I checked their communiqué when I didn't get mine this time !

http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2015/01/20/mcgill-professor-takes-aim-at-blackface-in-quebec/

There was a thread similar to this last year. Lots of people wondering what the problem was with putting people in blackface.

Some folks just no ****ing clue what's going on. Unbelievable to see this in the 21st century.

I think this article is a bang on response :

http://www.lapresse.ca/debats/chron...4836048-je-suis-offusque-are-you-offended.php

 

[Habs]

There was a thread similar to this last year. Lots of people wondering what the problem was with putting people in blackface.

Some folks just no ****ing clue what's going on. Unbelievable to see this in the 21st century.

...and some folks just have so much 'white guilt' they can't let it go. The actor isn't in 'blackface' he put black makeup on to play a role. Black comics , actors etc put on 'white paint' to play a role as well, but I you never see the outrage by the media.

Jesus, if you can't spot the difference between 'blackface' and that awful makeup job, then that's the real tragedy. I wish people would stop painting every little incident as some racial tragedy that should have been avoided. Did you complain when Chevy Chase put on East Indian makeup for Fletch? How about Peter Sellers? Of course you never.

 

[Brainiac]

Ha ha ha.

A blackface is painting a white guy in black so that he can play that degrading, stereotyped black guy (a slave, for example).

That sketch was no blackface. Get a grip.

Do you find that clip offensive? Because there's a whiteface in it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

...and some folks just have so much 'white guilt' they can't let it go. The actor isn't in 'blackface' he put black makeup on to play a role. Black comics , actors etc put on 'white paint' to play a role as well, but I you never see the outrage by the media.

Jesus, if you can't spot the difference between 'blackface' and that awful makeup job, then that's the real tragedy. I wish people would stop painting every little incident as some racial tragedy that should have been avoided. Did you complain when Chevy Chase put on East Indian makeup for Fletch? How about Peter Sellers? Of course you never.

It's something that shouldn't be done. Is it as offensive as "blackface"? No. But it's still ignorant.

Anyways, defend away... still shocked people would think this is somehow funny and not realize the history that goes along with it.

 

[JayKing]

Ha ha ha.

A blackface is painting a white guy in black so that he can play that degrading, stereotyped black guy (a slave, for example).

That sketch was no blackface. Get a grip.

Do you find that clip offensive? Because there's a whiteface in it.

Whiteface doesn't have the history of slavery and segregation attached to it. If you can't find a black actor in Montreal to play P.K. Subban then you're not looking hard enough and shouldn't be doing the sketch.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Whiteface doesn't have the history of slavery and segregation attached to it. If you can't find a black actor in Montreal to play P.K. Subban then you're not looking hard enough and shouldn't be doing the sketch.

Exactly. Go out somewhere in public with that makeup and see how funny it is. See if you get some laughs before getting the tar beaten out of you.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Whiteface doesn't have the history of slavery and segregation attached to it. If you can't find a black actor in Montreal to play P.K. Subban then you're not looking hard enough and shouldn't be doing the sketch.

Does P.K. Subban, the hockey player, have a history of slavery and segregation?

 

[JayKing]

Does P.K. Subban, the hockey player, have a history of slavery and segregation?

No but theatre/acting does.

 

[Brainiac]

Whiteface doesn't have the history of slavery and segregation attached to it. If you can't find a black actor in Montreal to play P.K. Subban then you're not looking hard enough and shouldn't be doing the sketch.

They talked about it. There was budget constraints and they couldn't hire someone to play for only 30 seconds. I don't know if you've seen the whole show, but the point is that they're just like 5 or 6 actors doing everything with costumes, makeup etc. They do a yearly review of what happened in politics, news and showbusiness.

And honestly, it would also be lame to hire a black guy and have him on the show for only 30 sec. Because he can't play any other role. Most of our politicians are white guys.

What do you do then? Don't talk about PK Subban at all? Even though he was in the news a lot last year. I'm guessing they would still be accused of racism in that case.

As I said, associating this sketch with blackface is just misguided. People are just looking for reasons to be offended.

 

[Brainiac]

Exactly. Go out somewhere in public with that makeup and see how funny it is. See if you get some laughs before getting the tar beaten out of you.

Context.

This was a show where a bunch of guys use costumes and makeup to mock just about anyone relevant in town.

I've seen the show and honestly, there's no way you can pretend that there was some racism behind that.

Denise Filiatraut (Rideau Vert's director) was the first one in Quebec to give an important role on TV to a black guy (Brathwaite).

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Context.

This was a show where a bunch of guys use costumes and makeup to mock just about anyone relevant in town.

I've seen the show and honestly, there's no way you can pretend that there was some racism behind that.

Denise Filiatraut (Rideau Vert's director) was the first one in Quebec to give an important role on TV to a black guy (Brathwaite).

I didn't say it was malicious intent. I said it was ignorant.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I didn't say it was malicious intent. I said it was ignorant.

They didn't have a black actor for that show. It just so happened they didn't. They weren't going to go out and hire one for one small little sketch. They have a crew they got together to do this... it's just like when a man dress up as a woman to portray a part because they have a small crew and do not have enough women to do a part (or vice versa). They don't go out and just hire someone extra for one part so that EXTREMELY sensible people don't get offended. In Québec, we're really really far removed from where blackface can hurt sensibilities. This type of stuff wouldn't fly in the states, but we don't have this history in Québec. No one in Québec got offended at that.

 

[Skip Bayless]

No but theatre/acting does.

But what does the play in question have to do with the history of slavery and is the actor portraying P.K. and black people in an offensive manner?

Back then, blackface was used for a white person to play a black person in theatre, but that wasn't the issue, the issue was how black people were characterized and embodied in a lot of plays using blackface - Not the use of the black paint on the face itself to portray a black person. Notice how the guy doesn't leave white skin around his mouth to accentuate his lips, which was one of the methods that white actors used to give a fixed form innate feature of black people. That was used to mock black people for the thickness of their lips.

The guy who portrays Subban could've left white skin around his mouth with the intention of looking a bit more like him, but he decided not to, because people would then call it racism and a mock of Subban's and black people's lips. You know what I mean?

Blackface was then denounced as time went by because people were sensitized to racism, and the generations following that (us) grew up with the notion that blackface as a theatrical practice was racist. Not all blackface usage back in the day was meant to mock black people either. But how do you explain that when racial injustice was so common back in the day? That's the reason why blackface altogether was dismissed.

If people want to fight all types of social injustice they need to target the right things, not everything in general and forget context.

 

[Devourers]

The whole blackface thing is so stupid. I agree that when some guy paints his face black in order to intentionally promote stereotypes and stupidity like that it has no place, but I think it can be done correctly.

Nobody cared about "White Chicks" where two black guys painted their faces white and acted like ditsy white girls. Why is that? Is it OK to poke fun at white stereotypes but not OK the other way around? For the record, in no way am I condoning "blackface" type sketches where the entire purpose of the sketch is to make fun of black people, however I find people are overly PC and overly sensitive these days.

Imo, to call a black person "African American" is even more ignorant than calling them black, and yet this type of backdoor racism is acceptable. You end up having people referred to as "African American" when they aren't American nor even African, it's as stupid as referring to somebody as "colored" and I hope this type of mentality is abolished eventually. It's gotten to the point where using the word black is considered racist. Should we suddenly start calling white people "European American"? It just goes to show how out of touch people are when stuff like this is used to make it seem like "racism doesn't exist" when in reality it still does. As if calling someone "African American" instead of just "black" defines whether or not you're a racist. /endrant, I just find it stupid. There's an obvious double standard and bring up history all you want, the lot of us weren't around for slavery.

 

[CanadienShark]

Well, it's a rose-coloured viewpoint anyway. Basically, I think he is "secretly" a better player, because he's young and super-skilled, and young super-skilled players just do get better with experience and added strength. And we've seen 5 or 6 games where he shows that, indeed, secretly, that betterness is coming along. But he has still "played worse" overall, on a full-season-so-far basis than he basically ever has in the NHL. Take the glass half full or half empty approach, I guess.

If you just wanted to throw away the rose-coloured glasses, he's a worse player now, and we do not agree at all.

But on the bright side, he makes $9M and the coach has to play him more and in more situations at least, so getting more of him is a better thing too, even when he's playing slightly worse overall. He's still our best defenseman, so more of a good thing is still better for us than not enough of a great thing.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you saying that you think Subban has changed his game in such a way that you think he's playing at a more subtly elite level than before, but he's had a poor season overall? Personally, I agree with the first assertion, and disagree with the second. I think he's had one of, if not his best season to date. As you said before he's somewhat "secretly" a better player than he ever has been. At first I was disappointed with the lack of flash in his game, but I realize how efficient his game has become. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, he's following a similar development path to Doughty.

 

[Team_Spirit]

When most players are on vacation somewhere getting a nice tan, PK is squatting in TO. Beast.

http://instagram.com/p/yLCxnPOErK/

4 pts in 5 game since the snub. PK is pissed, bad news for the NHL.

 

[Foltronic]

Well, it's a rose-coloured viewpoint anyway. Basically, I think he is "secretly" a better player, because he's young and super-skilled, and young super-skilled players just do get better with experience and added strength. And we've seen 5 or 6 games where he shows that, indeed, secretly, that betterness is coming along. But he has still "played worse" overall, on a full-season-so-far basis than he basically ever has in the NHL. Take the glass half full or half empty approach, I guess.

If you just wanted to throw away the rose-coloured glasses, he's a worse player now, and we do not agree at all.

But on the bright side, he makes $9M and the coach has to play him more and in more situations at least, so getting more of him is a better thing too, even when he's playing slightly worse overall. He's still our best defenseman, so more of a good thing is still better for us than not enough of a great thing.

Team strategy is a tad bit more defensive and he's adjusted things to be more responsible in both ends while still producing. My opinion is of one that his overall game and way of seeing and anticipating the game has improved. Agree to disagree

 

[Habs]

It's something that shouldn't be done. Is it as offensive as "blackface"? No. But it's still ignorant.

Anyways, defend away... still shocked people would think this is somehow funny and not realize the history that goes along with it.

So we shouldn't do things that may be offensive, or ignorant to others? What would I laugh at? Wait, you don't laugh at jokes, or movies, that others may find offensive?

C'mon , the double standard here is getting a little out of hand...

 

[Blind Gardien]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you saying that you think Subban has changed his game in such a way that you think he's playing at a more subtly elite level than before, but he's had a poor season overall?

I don't think he has changed his game all that much... well, not more than the team has. He just doesn't mesh quite as well in the ever-more-passive style of team play, the dump-it-out/don't-take-yourself-out-of-the-play-going-for-a-hit-in-your-own-zone style. He's still the same player, but it just de-emphasizes his skillset if he has to sky-hook the puck out of the zone and avoid hitting opposing players or joining the rush.

Does that count as a poor season? He can do more. He's better than he is showing. Is that him underperforming? He makes a few more worse plays, and a few fewer good ones. I'd say that's technically a "poor season overall" - by the very high standards of the elite top-5 NHL defenseman and perennial Norris-candidate that I think he should be - but that it's not necessarily "his fault" or that the reasons for it are surprising or incomprehensible.

I don't think he's remotely a Norris candidate this season, for example. But that he is capable of being one. So not being one is a disappointment.

Personally, I agree with the first assertion, and disagree with the second. I think he's had one of, if not his best season to date. As you said before he's somewhat "secretly" a better player than he ever has been. At first I was disappointed with the lack of flash in his game, but I realize how efficient his game has become. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, he's following a similar development path to Doughty.

I've seen him be very efficient and effective defensively before. People talk like it's hey-wow, the first time that PK can kill penalties and look good in his own zone! But to me, that's hogwash. He came into the league doing those things, and only got it taken away from him progressively under Therrien's reconstruction program. That he has it back again now represents no surprise or progression to me. It was always there, even if underutilized (last season especially). I still believe Subban can be and "secretly" is better - in basically every facet of the game - than we are currently seeing this season overall.