P.K. Subban

[Foltronic]

To all the posters suggesting his play has 'declined' Have you considered the fact that his quality of competition has gone up, like way up. Facing the competition's top lines game in game out AND he's still producing.

I guess he's not doing enough spin-o-rama's and then losing the puck enough for you guys, he's actually playing like an elite defenseman. For instance, he was way more noticible in all the good ways in the game against Nashville than one of the league's best defensemen in Weber, who is an absolute BEAST as well.

But no, let's continue to dump on our best skater with illogical reasoning. QOC goes up, regression is expected, i'm not seeing it affect his game changing play and he's more polished in his own end but still manages to put up the points!

If you want Erik Karlsson go cheer for the Senaturds

 

[Davebo*]

Glad to know i'm not the only one who noticed Subban's decline.

It might be Therrien's system.

All you see is decline?

 

[Mrb1p]

That little move Subban makes at 50 secs in the gopro video... Hot damn.

To all the posters suggesting his play has 'declined' Have you considered the fact that his quality of competition has gone up, like way up. Facing the competition's top lines game in game out AND he's still producing.

I guess he's not doing enough spin-o-rama's and then losing the puck enough for you guys, he's actually playing like an elite defenseman. For instance, he was way more noticible in all the good ways in the game against Nashville than one of the league's best defensemen in Weber, who is an absolute BEAST as well.

But no, let's continue to dump on our best skater with illogical reasoning. QOC goes up, regression is expected, i'm not seeing it affect his game changing play and he's more polished in his own end but still manages to put up the points!

If you want Erik Karlsson go cheer for the Senaturds

No one is really suggesting his play declined, he's just playing a different style that is less effective at what he can do. And he played like in 2013 vs Nashville, thanks for proving our point.
No one is actually dumping on Subban, all the people suggesting he's changed style and it's hurting his impact on the game are some of his biggest fan and supporters throughout the years and, ironically, the people who like his play right now were his biggest critic. I'm fairly certain Subban didn't results in more chance against in 2013 than he has now and I'm fairly certain his chances for were waaaaaaaay up.

 

[Foltronic]

That little move Subban makes at 50 secs in the gopro video... Hot damn.



No one is really suggesting his play declined, he's just playing a different style that is less effective at what he can do. And he played like in 2013 vs Nashville, thanks for proving our point.
No one is actually dumping on Subban, all the people suggesting he's changed style and it's hurting his impact on the game are some of his biggest fan and supporters throughout the years and, ironically, the people who like his play right now were his biggest critic. I'm fairly certain Subban didn't results in more chance against in 2013 than he has now and I'm fairly certain his chances for were waaaaaaaay up.

I give up. If you think his game against Nashville that he played in 2015, looked like the Subban of 2013 then there's no logical reasoning being used. Stats like QOC and the eye test, show he's a better player now but everyone's got different eyes so let's just agree to disagree.

 

[DAChampion]

I give up. If you think his game against Nashville that he played in 2015, looked like the Subban of 2013 then there's no logical reasoning being used. Stats like QOC and the eye test, show he's a better player now but everyone's got different eyes so let's just agree to disagree.

Look at his QoC under Martin.

 

[Foltronic]

He's a beast, should we say he was better in 2011 too?

 

[Fozz]

Subban's been much better as of late. He did have a so-so stretch a few weeks back, taking bad penalties and making some questionable decisions but he was still an asset. We're seeing the real Subban as of late and he'll be at that elite level until the end of the year, no doubt. Then he'll go to another level in the playoffs, which is what makes Subban such a great player.

 

[JGRB]

PK is a beast, and he's playing great hockey.

What the main problem is his coaching, he can absolutely take over a game. Too often he's playing safe when the team is in desperate need of offense, that said that's up to the coaching staff to tap PK on the shoulder and say "do your thing".

It's the coaching staff that has him reigned in, but the fact he can now play really well conservatively is showing a lot of maturity in his game and just makes him that much better and versatile.

He and Doughty are the two best defensemen in the league and no one is going to tell me otherwise.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

I respect the fact that you have an opinion, but observable evidence indicates that is the opposite of what is actually taking place on the ice.

A person tracked zone entries from defensemen last season, I believe Subban was basically tied with Campbell for being the 2nd most successful defenseman in the league at it behind only Karlsson.

http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/581116

Subban is basically the definition of a player that can carry the puck up the ice successfuly to enter the zone.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But to these old eyes, the observable evidence is incontrovertible, Subban's straight line speed, for whatever reason, has dropped off noticeably over the past couple of years. As I have repeatedly stated, Subban remains a great player, but until Montreal acquires a smooth, fluid skating defenceman who can dependably transport the puck on the power play, the team's chances for success are problematic.

 

[Lebowski]

You mean like Beaulieu? Not that I agree with the idea that Subban is a weak puck carrier to begin with. That's just silly.

 

[Skip Bayless]

I definitely agree that it's a team thing and the way we're set up. But even with that being fixed, PK should be skating the puck in because he's very good at it. Right now it's a bunch of stretch passing and get it to the forwards and dump it in.

On the PP, okay. But not at even strength, well it depends on the situation, but 90% of the time it's not worth it. It also depends on who's on the ice with him.

Regardless of the numbers I'd say he was a much better player then than now. As for the numbers, they're just telling you that we were able to generate a lot more chances than we allowed while he was on the ice. And it stands to reason that this would be the case because Subban always had the puck in the other team's zone.

When we actually look at the numbers though? 57 is ridiculous man. That's Lidstrom like...

Anyways, he's still really good.

An I'm telling you that this is a product of a team and not one player. Subban's play is integral part of that stat as he's dominant with the puck. But that stat dropping doesn't mean he's less efficient now, you have to look at the big picture of how his team is playing and where they're heading in terms of style. You can look at those stats and come to that conclusion on your own, but it has nothing to do with what's going on on the ice and the way the game is played.

 

[mustardnight*]

Am I missing something? PK skates the puck in all the time, that he doesn't do it more often is a demonstration of restraint on his part, and a logical step up in his all round game; he is now picking and choosing rather than skating the puck up to an offensive blue line without support.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I give up. If you think his game against Nashville that he played in 2015, looked like the Subban of 2013 then there's no logical reasoning being used. Stats like QOC and the eye test, show he's a better player now but everyone's got different eyes so let's just agree to disagree.

BS. The QOC is a little better sure, but he was eons better in 2013 than he is now. Don't sit there and think that his numbers are better now because they aren't.

He was playing like the best blueliner in the game in 2013 and that's not the case now. Just because he's a little wiser in terms of not making boneheaded mistakes (which still happen and always will as they do for any player) that doesn't make him a better blueliner. The 2nd half of the Nashville game was vintage 2013 Subban rushing the puck. That's what he should be doing every night.

Edit: I have to distinguish between "playing like" and "being" the best blueliner in the game. As BG has said, I think as soon as he gets the opportunity to play a more open style he will explode because I do think he's matured and there's a better bluliner inside him waiting to get out.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I give up. If you think his game against Nashville that he played in 2015, looked like the Subban of 2013 then there's no logical reasoning being used. Stats like QOC and the eye test, show he's a better player now but everyone's got different eyes so let's just agree to disagree.

I think one of the key points is that the Nashville game is just 1 game... yes, he *has* played some games like that this year, and if he had played 30 of them, we'd all be saying that he is better. But it hasn't been close to 30. Still, the fact that some of those games are there still makes it clear that there is no decline and no overall reason for concern. He can still do it, and will. And I have faith that it will become more frequent again.

I guess he's not doing enough spin-o-rama's and then losing the puck enough for you guys,

I would have said he has done *more* pointless spin-o-ramas, especially in his own zone, this year. And lost the puck on a few of them. And thrown the puck away to nowhere even more often.

Part of him throwing the puck away uselessly, however, is just the gameplan/style of the team. Same with the reduction in his physicality. They are just playing risk-averse, and even though he still does unconventional things at times that are far from risk-averse in isolation, the overall style does chew into his ability to control a game with his natural talent. But I think he's gradually figuring out that he can live outside that. He has a $9M cap hit now and they don't bench him when he makes a goofy play or takes a bad penalty. He doesn't have to be confrontational or obvious about it, but he can start to exert his willpower a little more than he used to be able to, push the envelope of conformance to the gameplan. I think he's getting that, and is going to unleash that in the second half.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think one of the key points is that the Nashville game is just 1 game... yes, he *has* played some games like that this year, and if he had played 30 of them, we'd all be saying that he is better. But it hasn't been close to 30. Still, the fact that some of those games are there still makes it clear that there is no decline and no overall reason for concern. He can still do it, and will. And I have faith that it will become more frequent again.

I would have said he has done *more* pointless spin-o-ramas, especially in his own zone, this year. And lost the puck on a few of them. And thrown the puck away to nowhere even more often.

Part of him throwing the puck away uselessly, however, is just the gameplan/style of the team. Same with the reduction in his physicality. They are just playing risk-averse, and even though he still does unconventional things at times that are far from risk-averse in isolation, the overall style does chew into his ability to control a game with his natural talent. But I think he's gradually figuring out that he can live outside that. He has a $9M cap hit now and they don't bench him when he makes a goofy play or takes a bad penalty. He doesn't have to be confrontational or obvious about it, but he can start to exert his willpower a little more than he used to be able to, push the envelope of conformance to the gameplan. I think he's getting that, and is going to unleash that in the second half.

I hope you're right. I personally don't expect it to happen until the playoffs. But once again, you and I seem to be on the same page.

 

[Adriatic]

I feel sorry for PK always being compared to Doughty, Weber, Keith..

 

[Baruch]

I hope you're right. I personally don't expect it to happen until the playoffs. But once again, you and I seem to be on the same page.

I don't think it's such a bad thing. Regular season is nice and all...
But playoffs is a different animal

 

[Foltronic]

@BG Yep, I agree that he's a better player now.

@LG Yep, he's a better player now.

 

[Lebowski]

I feel sorry for PK always being compared to Doughty, Weber, Keith..

Why?

 

[Baruch]

Why?

Because he doesn't get the recognition whatever he's done/he'll do.
Until he has a full trophy case that is (couple Norris, a Stanley Cup, hopefully a Conn Smythe would look good in the mix).

Also feeling sorry for Subban, he's in TO during the All-Star break

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Why?

Don't waste your time... Adriatic is to PK as Agnostic is to Price.

 

[Adriatic]

I love PK, I just feel for him! It's hard to live up to the expectations.

 

[Lebowski]

I love PK, I just feel for him! It's hard to live up to the expectations.

Considering he has more Norris trophies than Doughty and Weber put together, I fail to see how he has a hard time living up to expectations.

He looked far better than Weber and Doughty in the Habs/Kings/Preds match-ups this season. What makes you think they are so much better when you're not looking? Unless you want to pretend you watch 40 games a year of both Doughty and Weber...

 

[Adriatic]

It's like whenever a good young forward comes into the league and immediately is compared to Crosby, it sucks cause it's not fair to him. Keith, Weber, Doughty are the best of the best..not many players can play at that level.

 

[Lebowski]

It's like whenever a good young forward comes into the league and immediately is compared to Crosby, it sucks cause it's not fair to him. Keith, Weber, Doughty are the best of the best..not many players can play at that level.

Except PK has proven he was on that level on various occasions. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.