P.K. Subban

[Lebowski]

See I disagree entirely here...the issue, at least for me, is not the intention. I realize that maybe not everyone, ESPECIALLY in Quebec, understands the history behind that.

But given what we all know and have discussed now...how can anyone really just say that it's ok and no big deal now?

It should be a learning opportunity. Hell...this was brought up during a Habs games a few years back when some guys decided to wear blackface to the game with Subban jersey's on.

People in Quebec discussed it then, so I don't even entirely buy that 'they didn't know'. But that's another discussion

Either way, 'there is more to it than just that' as you put it.

I don't think there's more than just that to it. I get your point of view, I just think you're being way too dramatic about it.

People throwing banana peels at Simmonds (was it Simmonds?) is the kind of action that should be openly criticized as you know it's clearly motivated by racism. I don't think it applies to the situation at hand.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't think there's more than just that to it. I get your point of view, I just think you're being way too dramatic about it.

People throwing banana peels at Simmonds (was it Simmonds?) is the kind of racism that should be openly criticized as you know the intent behind that kind of action is motivated by racism. I don't think it applies to the situation at hand.

It was Kevin Weekes in 2002.

 

[417]

"Offensive" means that everybody, and I mean everybody, is offended.

Think Hitler pouring boiling battery acid on a basket of kittens with Jesus praising him right beside.

When it's 50/50... you can say you're offended, fine. You can say it's bad taste. You can say it's not appropriate. But you can't say it's offensive. Because you're trying to drag people along with you when they just don't care.
That sketch about Subban? I'd say it was definitely a little akward. I get it that some won't like it. But offensive? Certainly not.

----------

Anyways, that's my last comment on that issue because I'd also like to keep that thread on track: Subban is having a freaking great second half and I'm looking forward to see if he can catch up with Giordano in points. He's certainly thinking about it. He wants it.

This makes no sense lol...I don't need anyone else to agree with me. I find it offensive, Normand Brathwaite or anyone else doesn't have to agree with me. I'm comfortable with that.

Also, this discussion has PK Subban at the root of it, so i'm not sure why it wouldn't be considered on track.

Guess it's always better to bury our heads in these situations then to take the opportunity to learn and progress...

To each his own I guess

 

[Lebowski]

It was Kevin Weekes in 2002.

Didn't it happen fairly recently? I recall news on that from a year or two ago.

Quick Google search says it indeed happened to Simmonds in 2011 during a pre-season game in London.

 

[Andrei79]

Didn't it happen fairly recently? I recall news on that from a year or two ago.

Quick Google search says it indeed happened to Simmonds in 2011 during a pre-season game in London.

Kevin Weekes happened at the Bell Centre during the playoffs, I thought you were talking about an event in Montreal.

 

[417]

I don't think there's more than just that to it. I get your point of view, I just think you're being way too dramatic about it.

People throwing banana peels at Simmonds (was it Simmonds?) is the kind of action that should be openly criticized as you know it's clearly motivated by racism. I don't think it applies to the situation at hand.

How am I being dramatic about it? lol

I find it offensive, but don't really care either way to be honest. I don't expect that type of sensitivity to register with people from Quebec.

As for the Simmonds example...I honestly don't see the difference, both deplorable actions if you ask me. I don't really care to split heirs on either situation. The banana throwing incident is just a situation that more people know about, it's a more main stream thing than the blackface, but at their root, they're both from the same place. Maybe ask yourself WHY the throwing of a banana peel at a black player is seen as racist, there are historical references that date back centuries ago for that as well. It's really not all that difference, just more well-known.

 

[Jigger77]

Didn't it happen fairly recently? I recall news on that from a year or two ago.

Quick Google search says it indeed happened to Simmonds in 2011 during a pre-season game in London.

Happens fairly regularly (unfortunately). And yes that is something completely different because the intention is to denigrate.

 

[Andrei79]

This makes no sense lol...I don't need anyone else to agree with me. I find it offensive, Normand Brathwaite or anyone else doesn't have to agree with me. I'm comfortable with that.

Also, this discussion has PK Subban at the root of it, so i'm not sure why it wouldn't be considered on track.

Guess it's always better to bury our heads in these situations then to take the opportunity to learn and progress...

To each his own I guess

I agree with you,

I think most of us are on the defensive because of gratuitous articles from english Canada on the subject.

That said, when you say banana throwing and blackface come from the same place, that's where we'll disagree. It might in the rest of NA, but here it comes from ignorance, I dont think anyone would've been offended if the guy dressed up as Nazem Kadri with brown skin. The problem lies in the education on the subject.

 

[Lebowski]

How am I being dramatic about it? lol

I find it offensive, but don't really care either way to be honest. I don't expect that type of sensitivity to register with people from Quebec.

As for the Simmonds example...I honestly don't see the difference, both deplorable actions if you ask me. I don't really care to split heirs on either situation

The intent is clearly different. That's what matters to me here.

But as I said... I get your point of view. I have a different approach to the issue. Agree to disagree.

 

[417]

The intent is clearly different. That's what matters to me here.

But as I said... I get your point of view. I have a different approach to the issue. Agree to disagree.

Only because one act (banana peel throwing) is more known in the main stream. People, especially Canadians and EVEN more so Quebecers, mostly don't really know about the historical references with black face (maybe that changes now).

At the end of the day...they're both things we shouldn't be seeing in today's society and hopefully, we don't again.

But otherwise, you're right, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Brainiac]

This makes no sense lol...I don't need anyone else to agree with me. I find it offensive, Normand Brathwaite or anyone else doesn't have to agree with me. I'm comfortable with that.

Also, this discussion has PK Subban at the root of it, so i'm not sure why it wouldn't be considered on track.

Guess it's always better to bury our heads in these situations then to take the opportunity to learn and progress...

To each his own I guess

I repeat.

You and a bunch of people might be offended by something. Doesn't mean that thing is offensive. There is a clear and important difference.

"Offensive" is a very strong word. Should be used for more 'universal' stuff. Like that banana peel incident. That was offensive. That was clear and unequivocal racism. It's like saying a black guy is a lesser human being.

When it's in between, with only a certain percentage of the population being offended, it's more like 'bad taste', 'questionable' and the like.

 

[Brainiac]

Only because one act (banana peel throwing) is more known in the main stream. People, especially Canadians and EVEN more so Quebecers, mostly don't really know about the historical references with black face (maybe that changes now).

Come on now. People in Quebec do know about blackface.

The thing is, we're also used to see a small crew do a weekly or yearly show where they use makeup and costumes to impersonate public figures:

-Rock et Belles Oreilles
-the Bye Bye
-most of the stuff Marc Labreche did
-all the yearly reviews
-etc.

 

[417]

I repeat.

You and a bunch of people might be offended by something. Doesn't mean that thing is offensive. There is a clear and important difference.

"Offensive" is a very strong word. Should be used for more 'universal' stuff. Like that banana peel incident. That was offensive. That was clear and unequivocal racism. It's like saying a black guy is a lesser human being.

When it's in between, with only a certain percentage of the population being offended, it's more like 'bad taste', 'questionable' and the like.

So you've taken a poll of the population and have determined that only a small percentage of people were offended?

And i'll repeat...that skit, I found offensive to ME. Doesn't mean someone else has to feel the same as me, for me to think that way.

 

[417]

Come on now. People in Quebec do know about blackface.

The thing is, we're also used to see a small crew do a weekly or yearly show where they use makeup and costumes to impersonate public figures:

-Rock et Belles Oreilles
-the Bye Bye
-most of the stuff Marc Labreche did
-all the yearly reviews
-etc.

Ok? Point being?....

 

[Brainiac]

Ok? Point being?....

We're used to see ridiculous impersonations. Like "La Petite Vie" with "moman" being played by a guy for absolutely no reason other than the fact that Ding et Dong were two guys. When they exported the show, nobody understood and thought the two guys were gay or something. Rock et Belles Oreilles did a bunch of ridiculous blackfaces, yellowfaces and redfaces back in the days. They're not a bunch of racists.

Look, it was a show with 5-6 guys doing something like 100 impersonations. They didn't want to leave a guy like PK out of it, but then again, they couldn't hire a black guy for 30 sec. out of a 2h show. They made a questionable call, I agree, but to think there was a racist intent behind it is just wrong.

 

[Brainiac]

So you've taken a poll of the population and have determined that only a small percentage of people were offended?

And i'll repeat...that skit, I found offensive to ME. Doesn't mean someone else has to feel the same as me, for me to think that way.

So it's not universally offensive, then? Depends on the people. Interesting.

The counter example of the banana throwing, on the other hand, is perfectly clear. There's absolutely no nuances there. No questions. The guy who did it was a racist.

That's the little difference I'm trying to emphasize.

And anyways, when questioned about the banana incident PK said if it ever happened to him, he would probably just pick it up and eat it. He's that great!

 

[417]

We're used to see ridiculous impersonations. Like "La Petite Vie" with "moman" being played by a guy for absolutely no reason other than the fact that Ding et Dong were two guys. When they exported the show, nobody understood and thought the two guys were gay or something. Rock et Belles Oreilles did a bunch of ridiculous blackfaces, yellowfaces and redfaces back in the days. They're not a bunch of racists.

Look, it was a show with 5-6 guys doing something like 100 impersonations. They didn't want to leave a guy like PK out of it, but then again, they couldn't hire a black guy for 30 sec. out of a 2h show. They made a questionable call, I agree, but to think there was a racist intent behind it is just wrong.

Nowhere did I say there was racist intent in this sketch, no one can prove that there was or wasn't any intent and I have no desire to even attempt too

That's a completely separate issue...I don't have to know their intent to be offended

I'm also not sure why you're debating with me whether or i'm entitled to be offended lol kind of odd to be honest

 

[shawdowmaker]

PK might be able to win the Norris!!! If this offensively challenged team can start to score. Price Mvp, patches the M Richard, PK Norris. Habs Lord Stanley. MT coach of the year.

 

[417]

So it's not universally offensive, then? Depends on the people. Interesting.

The counter example of the banana throwing, on the other hand, is perfectly clear. There's absolutely no nuances there. No questions. The guy who did it was a racist.

That's the little difference I'm trying to emphasize.

And anyways, when questioned about the banana incident PK said if it ever happened to him, he would probably just pick it up and eat it. He's that great!

Again...to me, there's no difference between the banana peel toss or the blackface, they're both offensive and deplorable.

I could easily say the guy who threw the banana peel was just littering (I don't actually think that, just making the argument).

The only reason you think there's no nuance there is because everyone knows that it's an overtly racist act to do such a thing, not many people know the significance of blackface and it's implications

And really, that's fine...they want to say they didn't know or weren't trying to be offensive. That's all fine and dandy.

But no one should sit there and tell people that they're not allowed to be offended by it...that's way more offensive than anything

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Being offended by everything and everyone has become somewhat of an habit in developed societies.

We're so insulated from truly offending matters that we get pissy about every little meaningless thing just for the sake of expressing a general sense of disapproval.

I certainly get the idea that the blackface was in bad taste, but I sincerely doubt there was any intention of racist prejudices from whoever took the decision. I think everyone knows that, and that should be all there is to it.

A vestige of overly feminist trends as far as I'm concerned.

Very true. This was about as offensive as North America's promotion of bacon on everything must be to Jews... and about as worthy of conversation/discussion. No one is promoting pork products to stick it to the Jews, and no one is using make-up to invoke the spirit of actual racist black-faced comedy.

 

[417]

Very true. This was about as offensive as North America's promotion of bacon on everything must be to Jews... and about as worthy of conversation/discussion. No one is promoting pork products to stick it to the Jews, and no one is using make-up to invoke the spirit of actual racist black-faced comedy.

You can't be serious right now?

North American promotion of bacon???

You realize that issue here ISNT about the skit itself right?

It's about not being aware about its significance and implications (which isn't necessarily a fault other than ignorance) and then the down playing of it all

Anyways...i'm just gonna drop this, this one was too much for me. I gotta remember this is a hockey forum sometimes

 

[Blind Gardien]

Who even brings a banana to a hockey game? It's pretty hard to ignore the intent there, anyway. I don't think there's any level of denial that would be convincing. As for the blackface guys... well, I can imagine the ignorance factor and some plausible deniability on the intent there, depending on circumstances. If we're judging on intent. Whether folks are offended or not, I guess up to them, but rather than being offended I'm more kind of just ashamed that in our society we still have either case, be it malicious intent or even just careless ignorance. Both need to go.

 

[c3z4r]

I wonder how it was for other french people growing up in Quebec, but I didn't even know blackface had any historical implications until my 20s. It's just not part of Quebec culture and it's not done for racist reasons, unlike english North America. The people who did it might've been ignorant like I was, but they didn't do it on purpose. I think that's why a lot of black people here weren't offended, there was no ill will.

Just wanted to chime in and add that I also only found out about blackface's historical implications and background when I was in Cegep.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You can't be serious right now?

100%. It's called being over-sensitive to intent that isn't there, and attempting to justify both it, and why people should spend extra time/care being mindful of such over-sensitivities.

 

[417]

100%. It's called being over-sensitive to intent that isn't there, and attempting to justify both it, and why people should spend extra time/care being mindful of such over-sensitivities.

Again...I don't care about intent, you, me or anyone can never prove their intent.

That's not the issue here...BG put it perfectly, it's a shame that today someone didn't have the sense to shut that down, regardless of intent.

Anyways...great piece on ESPN featuring Willy O'ree and PK Subban