P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

[ECWHSWI]

I think the point is Subban is comparable to (and possibly better than) top 10 picks and guys viewed as potential franchise defenseman much more than he is Diaz or Weber. In fact, Subban is statistically closer to Shea Weber than he is Del Zotto.

dont worry, give it a few more months and there will be even more stats created for all of you to enjoy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You should read this: http://awinninghabit.com/2013/01/18/pk-subban-and-comparables/

Nice to see that McD is the Rangers best defenseman now.

Holy crap I think I just had a stroke... ahgl;djflajlafhlldgl grrlgglgelusgheh...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If Markov's prime lasted far longer than it did, then I don't think such a discussion is crazy. He was probably a top 10 defender in the league, but only for a few years. Markov was a late bloomer.

But right now neither Markov or Subban deserve to be anywhere near that discussion.

Hey I could be wrong about Subban, its early in his career and we don't know how good he'll be. But that's my opinion on what I've seen from him. He's very, very good at such a young age. I think he's going to be scary.

Then again I thought Chris Higgins was going to be a 40 goal scorer so you never know...

 

[peate]

Nice to see that McD is the Rangers best defenseman now.

Holy crap I think I just had a stroke... ahgl;djflajlafhlldgl grrlgglgelusgheh...

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know off hand how much McD is making this year?

 

[Et le But]

dont worry, give it a few more months and there will be even more stats created for all of you to enjoy.

The problem is you aren't saying anything. I agree completely that statistics, without context, are meaningless, the problem is these numbers are given within context. Advanced stats can be worthless without looking at the bigger picture (see: the stats that show Gomez having favourable possession) but when the numbers consistently paint the same picture that is observable when watching games, it becomes clear that the "Subban has proven nothing" rhetoric is meaningless.

Hey I could be wrong about Subban, its early in his career and we don't know how good he'll be. But that's my opinion on what I've seen from him. He's very, very good at such a young age. I think he's going to be scary.

Then again I thought Chris Higgins was going to be a 40 goal scorer so you never know...

Well I agree from everything we have seen from Subban he has unlimited potential, and is better than any Hab defender at the same age since Chelios. But a lot can happen.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know off hand how much McD is making this year?

from nhlnumbers

0.875 mil

 

[Monctonscout]

Nice to see that McD is the Rangers best defenseman now.

Holy crap I think I just had a stroke... ahgl;djflajlafhlldgl grrlgglgelusgheh...

Did Staal and Girardi retire?

 

[ECWHSWI]

The problem is you aren't saying anything. I agree completely that statistics, without context, are meaningless, the problem is these numbers are given within context. Advanced stats can be worthless without looking at the bigger picture (see: the stats that show Gomez having favourable possession) but when the numbers consistently paint the same picture that is observable when watching games, it becomes clear that the "Subban has proven nothing" rhetoric is meaningless.

actually you still have failed to awnser the question : what (more than Pacc) has Subban proven ?

 

[peate]

from nhlnumbers

0.875 mil

Thanks bud, I was expecting a lot more, I guess he's still on his rookie contract.

 

[Et le But]

Nice to see that McD is the Rangers best defenseman now.

Holy crap I think I just had a stroke... ahgl;djflajlafhlldgl grrlgglgelusgheh...

When the Subban debate made me find the player usage charts from last year and I looked at the Rangers page I almost threw up.

actually you still have failed to awnser the question : what (more than Pacc) has Subban proven ?

Last year, on a terrible team, Subban was our best defender and Pacioretty our best winger. Both "proved" a lot, though a big difference is Pacioretty had a mainly offensive role (with an almost as good Cole) while Subban was the only player besides Plekanec expected to produce in all game situations (5 on 5 and both special teams) with the toughest matchups...and Subban came out looking considerably above average except in power plays.

The year before that, Subban started out up and down but after Martin benched him he was arguably our best defender by the end of the seasoj. And this was playing with an even strength pylon in Gill. Pacioretty was above average for 30 games.

Subban also has another above average playoff performance from the year before.

So yeah, it's safe to say if Pacioretty "earned" his contract, Subban deserves at the minimum, as much.

 

[habtastic]

actually you still have failed to awnser the question : what (more than Pacc) has Subban proven ?

I think that is a fair point. Subban's stats betray his on-ice performance - he's better than they indicate and some things you can't express in stats, BUT Max Pacioretty WAS the Habs last year and IIRC was having a breakout season until his neck was what broke. We so would have won that series with him. Saying that Subban > Patches at this point is reaching. Both great - would like to see similar contracts.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When the Subban debate made me find the player usage charts from last year and I looked at the Rangers page I almost threw up.

McD's just a solid player. Not spectacular, not flashy but solid. Kind of reminds me of Eric Desjardins.

I think that is a fair point. Subban's stats betray his on-ice performance - he's better than they indicate and some things you can't express in stats, BUT Max Pacioretty WAS the Habs last year and IIRC was having a breakout season until his neck was what broke. We so would have won that series with him. Saying that Subban > Patches at this point is reaching. Both great - would like to see similar contracts.

Subban is better than Max. And by a fair bit too. Apart from Price, right now Subban is our best player.

 

[paddy]

He was never a HOF calibre player. I think Subban will be.

Oh lord. Talk about massive overrating.

 

[Et le But]

McD's just a solid player. Not spectacular, not flashy but solid. Kind of reminds me of Eric Desjardins.

Subban is better than Max. And by a fair bit too. Apart from Price, right now Subban is our best player.

The sad thing is McD and Subban would compliment each other very nicely.

And yes, Subban is our best player besides Price.

I think that is a fair point. Subban's stats betray his on-ice performance - he's better than they indicate and some things you can't express in stats, BUT Max Pacioretty WAS the Habs last year and IIRC was having a breakout season until his neck was what broke. We so would have won that series with him. Saying that Subban > Patches at this point is reaching. Both great - would like to see similar contracts.

I don't see how you can say Pacioretty was the Habs - he was the best forward much as Subban was the best defenseman. But the gap between Patches and Cole last year was much closer than that of Subban and every other defender - with all due respect to Gorges, who had the same defensive load, but without the offensive one given to Subban. Likewise, Pacioretty had a minimal defensive burden - Plekanec, Eller and the grinders got overmatched leaving the DD line to focus on offense.

 

[Jeffrey]

Oh yeah about Gomez: almost 100% of the fan didn't like the trade when it did happen but the management did made that move and the fans were right. At this moment it looks like the majority of habs fans would rather see a bridge contract with Subban and i'm quite happy to see that Bergevin believe in that too. Subban is not as special as people are painting him and he still has to learn a lot. IMO a short term deal could be even more benefical for him if he outperform the habs expectation as the habs would have to give him even more money on longer terms...

 

[coolasprICE]

Subban is on track to being the best d-man we've had in over 20 years yet we can't speculate that he has the potential to be in the HOF one day?

Habs fans will never learn from their mistakes - it's almost destined that the moment we have the real deal we need to do whatever it takes to discredit them, not give them their rightful props, and eventually lose them... just so we can cry about it and play the victim card.

It's liking breaking up with your loved one because you want to see what else is out there yet she's 10 years younger, is a super model, rich and loves to cook and clean.

MAKES NO SENSE

 

[Cole Caulifield]

You should read this: http://awinninghabit.com/2013/01/18/pk-subban-and-comparables/

Really good read.

Words come easily when an argument makes sense. This is the case here. I loved the end :

If the hangup is on the term of the deal, rather than the amount, then that’s a decision that reflects very poorly on the Habs’ general manager.

Bergevin may prefer to keep everyone on his team on a similar contract structure. But Subban is a special player. And it would be to the benefit of the team to treat his contract in a special manner.

 

[Agnostic]

They certainly know more than armchairs gm like you and me.

A lot of smart professional money managers who know more than I do about investing put their clients into Bre-X.

It was one of the most elaborate stock scams in financial history.

Like money managers I expect professional hockey managers to have the best, most accurate, studied information available. When they make mistakes that more conservative risk takers wouldn't , despite their professional insider status, it opens them up to criticism. Justifiably.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Oh lord. Talk about massive overrating.

Well, look at the bright side, folks are always saying I underrate our team so... if I'm underrating him saying he could be a HOF player, then he'll probably become the next Bobby Orr.

 

[Capitano]

Prust remains a dime a dozen player. We could have re-signed Staubitz for a year at 1m or less, and then grab another guy next year. No need to give a scrapper 2.5M for 4years. You'd think we'd have learned that with Laraque. Prust will be a fan favorite because of his role here, but he still is easily replaceable.

Our best Dman and arguably most promising young star is sitting at home, hasn't practiced one day with us, and will likely not play the season opener because he still is without a contract, yet you think we are in full control? You are quite gullible..

What are your expectations for this year for the habs?

 

[peate]

Well, look at the bright side, folks are always saying I underrate our team so... if I'm underrating him saying he could be a HOF player, then he'll probably become the next Bobby Orr.

Isn't he L'Orr noir? (A little TinTin reference there)

 

[sheed36]

Is PK worth more than the 6 year 30 million extension Edler just signed with the Canucks?

 

[Et le But]

Is PK worth more than the 6 year 30 million extension Edler just signed with the Canucks?

Edler got a fair contract. He's better than Subban offensively but Subban is better defensively, so draw your own conclusions there. Edler could not handle the minutes Subban plays for the Habs, that's for sure, even if he's a more proven PP weapon.

 

[ECWHSWI]

When the Subban debate made me find the player usage charts from last year and I looked at the Rangers page I almost threw up.



Last year, on a terrible team, Subban was our best defender and Pacioretty our best winger. Both "proved" a lot, though a big difference is Pacioretty had a mainly offensive role (with an almost as good Cole) while Subban was the only player besides Plekanec expected to produce in all game situations (5 on 5 and both special teams) with the toughest matchups...and Subban came out looking considerably above average except in power plays.

The year before that, Subban started out up and down but after Martin benched him he was arguably our best defender by the end of the seasoj. And this was playing with an even strength pylon in Gill. Pacioretty was above average for 30 games.

Subban also has another above average playoff performance from the year before.

So yeah, it's safe to say if Pacioretty "earned" his contract, Subban deserves at the minimum, as much.

See, it's as simple as that, Subban has proven he can be the #1 D on a terrible team...

and that he can be above average, as you stated.

 

[Et le But]

See, it's as simple as that, Subban has proven he can be the #1 D on a terrible team...

and that he can be above average, as you stated.

He also proved he can be a #1D on a slightly above average team that pushed the SC winners to game 7 OT.