Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[Alf the dwarf]

What does this mean?

Certainly you are not suggesting Laine's goals per 60 are higher than Stamkos's or Ovechkin's from their best seasons, right? I mean, that is demonstrably false so you must be saying something else.

Are you saying that out of all players who scored 44 goals in the past 20 years (since ATOI has been tracked) Laine did it in the fewest minutes?

Is scoring 44 goals at a lower G/60 somehow more impressive than scoring 65 goals at a higher G/60 rate?

What am I missing?

He's saying that nobody has scored 44 goals with same ice time since TOI has been recorded. Don't get it what is hard to understand in that.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

They're stylistically different in the sense that Ovechkin was the complete package and Laine is a one dimensional target shooter, yes.

If you want me to get onto your side you're going to have to start listing things Laine has over Ovechkin that isn't splitting hairs over his marginally better shooting accuracy.

Hands and hockey sense. Also more defensively responsible.

 

[Carlzner]

Hands and hockey sense. Also more defensively responsible.

Nope

 

[grieves]

They're stylistically different in the sense that Ovechkin was the complete package and Laine is a one dimensional target shooter, yes.

If you want me to get onto your side you're going to have to start listing things Laine has over Ovechkin that isn't splitting hairs over his marginally better shooting accuracy.

I didn't watch Ovi in Russian league so I don't know what he looked like. He had pretty pedestrian stats at least. Laine simply does not have a comparable season with Ovi in the NHL yet.

If you mean that Ovi was more physically dominant as a 20yo then Laine currently is, then you are right. But we are talking about careers here, not some teenage years. Laine is going to improve in this regard, and even though he may never reach peak Ovi in physicality, Laine's shot is by far the best there is in terms of how far he can score goals from. And that is a damn important skill.

 

[izlez]

Compare a 19 year old in the NHL to a 20 year old in the NHL?
THAT'S CRAZY! NOT EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR! WHY WOULD YOU TRY TO DO THAT!?!?

Compare a 19 year old playing in the NHL in 2018 to a 19 year old playing in the Russian league in 2004?
Finally, a level playing ground. NOW we can make a fair comparison!

 

[Midnight Judges]

He's saying that nobody has scored 44 goals with same ice time since TOI has been recorded. Don't get it what is hard to understand in that.

Ovechkin and Stamkos have scored more than 44 goals with Laine's ice time, it's just that they went on to score even more than that - at a higher rate - with substantial additional ice time despite the fact that G/60 tends to decrease with more TOI.

In other words - you guys created a stat trying to make Laine look like some sort of record breaker but that is highly misleading.

 

[Carlzner]

I didn't watch Ovi in Russian league so I don't know what he looked like. He had pretty pedestrian stats at least. Laine simply does not have a comparable season with Ovi in the NHL yet.

If you mean that Ovi was more physically dominant as a 20yo then Laine currently is, then you are right. But we are talking about careers here, not some teenage years. Laine is going to improve in this regard, and even though he may never reach peak Ovi in physicality, Laine's shot is by far the best there is in terms of how far he can score goals from. And that is a damn important skill.

He's not just talking about physicality. Ovechkin was a game breaker that could completely take over a game, and he did it very frequently. Every shift he was on the ice absolutely anything could happen. The only player right now that comes close to having that ability is McDavid. Laine is on another planet.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Laine's shot is by far the best there is in terms of how far he can score goals from.

You think Laine's shot is "by far" better than Ovechkin's in terms of scoring from distance.

Wow.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He's not just talking about physicality. Ovechkin was a game breaker that could completely take over a game, and he did it very frequently. Every shift he was on the ice absolutely anything could happen. The only player right now that comes close to having that ability is McDavid. Laine is on another planet.

McDavid's initial 3 seasons do not compare well with Ovie's.

 

[grieves]

He's not just talking about physicality. Ovechkin was a game breaker that could completely take over a game, and he did it very frequently. Every shift he was on the ice absolutely anything could happen. The only player right now that comes close to having that ability is McDavid. Laine is on another planet.

Like this? Youngest player ever to score three hat tricks?



I'm sure Laine will be doing this more frequently too but it is for sure tough if you average 16 and a half minutes of ice-time.

 

[Narow]

Judging mostly by highlights from ovi it seems he was super explosive offensive dynamo back in the day who could score is so many different ways.

Laine is basically the best shooter who can hit stretches where he is unstoppable and cant miss.

Both hit hard, ovi does it way more.

Both shoot hard, laine does it better but ovi does it more.

Skating its ovi ainec. (^^)

Hands- unsure probably ovi tho

Passing - unsure think its laine tho

Iq-???

Defense:????

Laine is a completely different type of player who i hope will be less reliant on others for offense. In comparison ovi was a one man wrecking crew at laines current age. Hope laine managed to close some gaps during the summer but i doubt it. I think Laine can pot 52 goals this season tho ^^

 

[oXo Cube]

Hands and hockey sense. Also more defensively responsible.

The first two are blatantly false, especially hockey sense. The last one is at best highly debatable.

I didn't watch Ovi in Russian league so I don't know what he looked like. He had pretty pedestrian stats at least. Laine simply does not have a comparable season with Ovi in the NHL yet.

If you mean that Ovi was more physically dominant as a 20yo then Laine currently is, then you are right. But we are talking about careers here, not some teenage years. Laine is going to improve in this regard, and even though he may never reach peak Ovi in physicality, Laine's shot is by far the best there is in terms of how far he can score goals from. And that is a damn important skill.

What does this have to do with the question I asked? You're just deflecting now.

But to answer the question anyway, no I don't just mean that Ovechkin would sometimes hit people. The guy was a McDavid level driver of offense at the NHL level. Laine has not demonstrated that he is capable of that in any capacity. Could he improve to that? I mean I guess he could, anything is possible. I'm not gonna bet on it, though.

 

[grieves]

You think Laine's shot is "by far" better than Ovechkin's.

Wow.

Even Stamkos' shot is better than Ovechkin in terms of xGoals and Laines shot is way more ridiculous.

Ovechkin is more of a volume shooter (because he can bulldoze his way to creating scoring chances, again different type of player).

 

[Carlzner]

Like this? Youngest player ever to score three hat tricks?



I'm sure Laine will be doing this more frequently too but it is for sure tough if you average 16 and a half minutes of ice-time.

Have you watched any videos of rookie Ovechkin yet? I feel like I've been asking you fins to all thread.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Even Stamkos' shot is better than Ovechkin in terms of xGoals and Laines shot is way more ridiculous.

What is xGoals?

 

[grieves]

Have you watched any videos of rookie Ovechkin yet? I feel like I've been asking you fins to all thread.

Why do you even care about that? You want us to do some kind of eye-test comparison instead of actual numbers?

I like numbers more.

 

[RageQuit77]

/Meta

It's funny how much possibly The greatest goal scorer of the sport needs "defense" against young usurper. Like it would be blashemy to talk the boy and the papa in same thread. If anything Laine and Ovi will be always compared and talked about in relation to each other. Laine made sure about that by himself:

Patrik Laine - Wikipedia

"
Personal life
Laine's favourite NHL team growing up was the Washington Capitals, particularly liking Alexander Ovechkin. In his spare time Laine likes to play video games.[63]
"

Like everything that Laine can do and did do better than his Idol in his youth, would somehow lower the esteem of The Idol. That's not the case.

Quite contrary.

Most of us Laine fans are also Ovechkin fans (regardless of team affiliation or nationality). It's damn F****** obvious why!

 

[grieves]

What is xGoals?

From an earlier thread:

"The whole point of "expected goals" or "xGoals" is to get rid of the luck factor. If you shoot from one spot 5 shots, and 5 go in, your actual shooting percentage is 100%. Should we derive from that set of data that you will always shoot 100% from that spot, or should we calculate what everyone else is shooting from that shot, to calculate your xGoals number?

If we don't think you will shoot 100% from that area, we can look at what everyone else has done in that area, and then determine what is the league average percentage for that shot to go in. Then we have a situation where the actual production is 100%, but the value we should give more weight to is "only 2 shots go in from that area in general for every other player". So the xGoals number for that performance is 2 instead of 5.

And that makes it a better stat, especially when you fine-tune it to the player in question (and the goalie, and the pass that he just received, and how many defenders are screening, and probably what the player ate the last day with today's technology).

And then later, if we figure out that you got to that same spot, but did not score in 10 shots straight, we can determine that you should be worth at least 4 "expected goals", even though you scored none.

And that is what makes analytics useful. It tries to take the luck (or random variation) out of it."

So it's basically: What is the probability of any given shot going in if we do a league-wide average result of said shot.

There were serious doubts about Laines shooting ability because his shots are not supposed to go in.

 

[Riddum]

Ovi is more comparable to Prime Lindros. Shot aside, Laine's skillset is not even in the same dimension as Prime Ovi.

Laine is not an explosive skater. His level of agility and athleticism is about 40% of Prime Ovi. Dude has size but he isn't physically dominant.

Prime Ovi was an unbelievably skilled power forward. Even if he didn't score, he dominated physically and created tons of chances with his shot. Prime Ovi would take the puck from his zone, skate pass the opponent blue line and take a shot about 3 times a game.

 

[Bank Shot]

I'm sure Laine will be doing this more frequently too but it is for sure tough if you average 16 and a half minutes of ice-time.

A rookie Ovechkin would have gotten more icetime on the Jets because he would be their best player by a mile.

 

[nowhereman]

Ovechkin was an absolute beast. He and Laine are not comparable yet and I doubt they ever will be.

This is one of the best goalscorers of all time we're talking about here. OV is more comparable to McDavid than he is Laine.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

Ovechkin and Stamkos have scored more than 44 goals with Laine's ice time, it's just that they went on to score even more than that - at a higher rate - with substantial additional ice time despite the fact that G/60 tends to decrease with more TOI.

In other words - you guys created a stat trying to make Laine look like some sort of record breaker but that is highly misleading.

No, just pointing out Laine was better in production as teen. People got pretty pissed of that fact. I didn't speak anything of any records in my starting post.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

Nope

That's your opinion. Glad you have your own opinions

 

[psycat]

Ovi's stats from the 04-05 season:

2004-05

Moscow Dynamo

Russia

37 gp

13 goals

14 assists

27 points

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There is a gap alright but it's not what you think.

In how many threads must it be brought up that stats from different leagues doesn't really transfer be brought up before people like you get it? Laine might very well had less points if he played in the KHL.

 

[FinnJet]

Ovechkin once had 136 points and 63 goals in an 82 game stretch.

It is hard to imagine Laine doing something like that.

And why not? It's not even a hattie/game