Ovechkin Milestone Thread - Countdown to 894 (Continued)

[BallardEra]

Holy f*** 19 posts and you and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye?

That was quick

Burner account

 

[wetcoast]

Me and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye but I think this is an interesting perspective. Why does the goal record matter in the first place? Why not just look at points instead? Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each. I think this might be just very selective cherry-picking of statistics. I mean, yes, the record is nice but at the end of the day, kinda trivial. I think the record tells more about Ovechkin's selfishness. In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does. Still, Ovechkin has a great shot and I respect it tremendeously.

This is the goal countdown thread, go to another thread about other matters and I expanded on my first point here in case you missed it.

I guess it might matter to some people for different reasons but at the end of the day history will show the number of goals and Ovi will be the leader and is unlikely to be caught baring some unforeseen transformation in any future NHL.

In short the historical record will just state the number of goals and his placement.

 

[wetcoast]

I don't want to derail this thread,

You're right but here is a quick response.

but why doesn't Messier ever appear on these lists?

Because he isn't even a top 5 center of all time (and that's before McDavid who will surely pass him.

He is right there at the top of those all time lists, and he won a bunch of Cups.

He's usually listed around 20th overall and the "won a bunch of Cups argument is a weak.

Is it because most think he was / is an asshole? lol serious question.

Other notables: Jagr, Francis, Yzerman.

This is a good place to learn and analyze top player lists.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time'

Nov 11, 2018

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time

The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community.

Report any errors to @quoipourquoi

Rank	Player	Position	Born	Nation	Birth City
1	Wayne Gretzky	C	1961	Canada	Brantford, Ontario
2	Gordie Howe	RW	1928	Canada	Floral...

[TBODY]

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 999
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is a good place to learn and analyze top player lists.

Eh, that is not a good resource.

Those guys concluded that Canada alone - with a population of 9-11 million people and during the great depression/world war 2 - developed two to three times as much elite hockey talent as the international hockey community does today.

It's just not plausible.

Nevermind the agendas, the routine hyperbole, the massive overrepresentation of Penguins fans, the antiquated emphasis on player nationality, and the demonstrable failures of accurate player evaluation.

 

[Dingo]

I don't want to derail this thread, but why doesn't Messier ever appear on these lists? He is right there at the top of those all time lists, and he won a bunch of Cups. Is it because most think he was / is an asshole? lol serious question.

Other notables: Jagr, Francis, Yzerman.

i dont personally think Messier is that close. I have a lot of guys ahead of him, but, i know there are a lot of posters in the HOH forum who think REALLY highly of him, too.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each.

Well, no, they don't actually have the same value.

I get it - that you are accustomed to assuming they are simply because somebody somewhere in hockey history decided to count them as the same, but that doesn't actually make it true.

There are approximately 1.72 assists per goal, and have been for about 70 years now. The all-time assists record (1963) is more than double the all-time goals record (894).

The opportunity to accumulate assists is vastly different than the opportunity to accumulate goals.

 

[wetcoast]

Eh, that is not a good resource.

Those guys concluded that Canada alone - with a population of 9-11 million people and during the great depression/world war 2 - developed two to three times as much elite hockey talent as the international hockey community does today.

It's just not plausible.

Nevermind the agendas, the routine hyperbole, the massive overrepresentation of Penguins fans, the antiquated emphasis on player nationality, and the demonstrable failures of accurate player evaluation.

That's why i stated

learn and analyze top player lists.

It's a good starting point and if one takes your POV he isn't even 20th in a Canadian bias effort but then again perhaps your bias is showing through here again.

The thing is that the HOH much like this section and sports fans in general put too much emphasis on SC or trophy counting and that's most likely the cause of the actual problem that you have with their list.

I have some problems with that list and the way it was formed but like I said for the poster saying that Moose should be on a top 6 list it's a good resource for them.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, no, they don't actually have the same value.

I get it - that you are accustomed to assuming they are simply because somebody somewhere in hockey history decided to count them as the same, but that doesn't actually make it true.

There are approximately 1.72 assists per goal, and have been for about 70 years now. The all-time assists record (1963) is more than double the all-time goals record (894).

The opportunity to accumulate assists is vastly different than the opportunity to accumulate goals.

It would be one thing if someone actually follows this line of thinking consistently but sadly it's usually only applied to some goal scorers and not others and there is more to hockey greatness than scoring goals and assists.

But this thread is about the goal record and things should get exciting down the stretch, let's leave other things like legacy and players comparison for the likely other thread that will emerge when the goals record is broken shall we?

 

[Midnight Judges]

The thing is that the HOH much like this section and sports fans in general put too much emphasis on SC or trophy counting and that's most likely the cause of the actual problem that you have with their list.

Nah the problem is that regulars over there routinely slander Ovechkin by claiming Ovie would be the 5th-8th greatest player on the 1956 Canadians, or Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer, or Ryan Getzlaf is a better player, or Ovechkin is a "shoot-only player" despite being top 10 in assists during his generation and top 40 all time in adjusted assists, and top 3 in hits.

It's a bit of an echo chamber.

 

[Toby91ca]

Me and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye but I think this is an interesting perspective. Why does the goal record matter in the first place? Why not just look at points instead? Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each. I think this might be just very selective cherry-picking of statistics. I mean, yes, the record is nice but at the end of the day, kinda trivial. I think the record tells more about Ovechkin's selfishness. In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does. Still, Ovechkin has a great shot and I respect it tremendeously.

What are you talking about? It's fine if you want to argue total points are more important (i.e. 500 goals and 1,400pts is better than 600 goals and 1,350pts), but seriously, we shouldn't track goals at all then? Everyone goal scored we should just have 3 guys shown as the guys that got points? Goals and assists no longer need to exist?

If you think about all-time scoring records in NHL history, I think people would think about points record first (Gretzky by a long shot), then they'd look at goals record 2nd.....I think you are suggesting there should almost be no records if you are talking about ignoring the 2nd one people would think about.

 

[Dingo]

Nah the problem is that regulars over there routinely slander Ovechkin by claiming Ovie would be the 5th-9th greatest player on the 1956 Canadians, or Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer, or Ryan Getzlaf is a better player, or Ovechkin is a "shoot-only player" despite being top 10 in assists during his generation and top 40 all time in adjusted assists, and top 3 in hits.

It's a bit of an echo chamber.

Also 11th in career assists amongst wingers.

Its important to note how wingers are typically deployed.

Jagr and Kucherov are, unless im forgetting someone, the only two wingers in my viewing lifetime to be able to hang with, or even exceed, the great centers in assists.

 

[Dingo]

Me and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye but I think this is an interesting perspective. Why does the goal record matter in the first place? Why not just look at points instead? Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each. I think this might be just very selective cherry-picking of statistics. I mean, yes, the record is nice but at the end of the day, kinda trivial. I think the record tells more about Ovechkin's selfishness. In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does. Still, Ovechkin has a great shot and I respect it tremendeously.

If im not mistaken Backstrom without Ovechkin was much worse off than Ovechkin without Backstrom, statistically.

He thing about goals is - you dont get assists by just making passes. They have to end up in the net for those passes to count.

It goes both ways - a good passer will help a good scorer, but the reverse is just as true.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I've seen him play before.

You sure have, as he feasts on your team, and has the most goals on the Jets than any team in the league, not to mention the Jets are in the other conference.

 

[Randyne]

In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does

That's not true.
Ovechkin is the one who makes his team better, Sid makes his team worse (honestly send him golfing and PIT will take PO spot).
PIT with Sid P% .603
PIT w/o Sid P% .634
WSH with Ovi P% .613
WSH w/o Ovi P% .513
Ovi created top 10 secondary assistant of all time (per game A2 with 500 GP; or top 5 with 1000 GP).
Sid created no one.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Suuurrrre.

You'd be gobbling Malkin if he was at 878 right now.

Yep Pens poster is definitely biased.

 

[M4lk1n71]

That's why i stated



It's a good starting point and if one takes your POV he isn't even 20th in a Canadian bias effort but then again perhaps your bias is showing through here again.

The thing is that the HOH much like this section and sports fans in general put too much emphasis on SC or trophy counting and that's most likely the cause of the actual problem that you have with their list.

I have some problems with that list and the way it was formed but like I said for the poster saying that Moose should be on a top 6 list it's a good resource for them.

Exactly! Finally, someone is making sense. We need more unbiased discussions where people put aside their allegiances to the franchises they root for.

 

[Golden_Jet]

We need more unbiased discussions where people put aside their allegiances to the franchises they root for.

you should take this advice to heart.

 

[M2Beezy]

Me and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye but I think this is an interesting perspective. Why does the goal record matter in the first place? Why not just look at points instead? Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each. I think this might be just very selective cherry-picking of statistics. I mean, yes, the record is nice but at the end of the day, kinda trivial. I think the record tells more about Ovechkin's selfishness. In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does. Still, Ovechkin has a great shot and I respect it tremendeously.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Also 11th in career assists amongst wingers.

Its important to note how wingers are typically deployed.

Jagr and Kucherov are, unless im forgetting someone, the only two wingers in my viewing lifetime to be able to hang with, or even exceed, the great centers in assists.

Mitch Marner is 10th all time in assists per game played, ahead of both. With his next assist he hits 500 by age 27.

 

[wetcoast]

Nah the problem is that regulars over there routinely slander Ovechkin by claiming Ovie would be the 5th-9th greatest player on the 1956 Canadians

That's just complete bullshit as only 4 Habs from those teams are in the most recent top 100 list (18-19) ahead of him.

, or Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer

I disagree with the minority view that is brought up there as well

, or Ryan Getzlaf is a better player,

Sure maybe one guy said that and I don't even know the context but Getzlaf wasn't even in the top 60 centers and not sure where he lands in the top 200 (the after migration list is hard to read) so just more bullshit here.

or Ovechkin is a "shoot-only player" despite being top 10 in assists during his generation and top 40 all time in adjusted assists, and top 3 in hits.

The fact of the matter is that he became more of a shoot first type of player after the 10-11 season which is the last 14 years.

It's a bit of an echo chamber.

It is a bit of an echo chamber but so is this thread right?

Just because perhaps one or 2 people saying these things is no reasons to throw out the complete discussion is it?

But I'll break it down above.

But like I said before this is more to discuss in the next thread that will pop up no doubt.

Exactly! Finally, someone is making sense. We need more unbiased discussions where people put aside their allegiances to the franchises they root for.

Buddy you are part of the problem not the solution here.

you should take this advice to heart.

 

[kugelbahn]

A little detour for a burner/troll account and obsolete/biased forum promotion...

Back to OV, couple of all-time lists of less "fantasy" stats which weigh goals a bit higher than secondary assists.

OV recently moved up to third place in hockey-reference.com Offensive Point Shares list

and sixth in Goals Created list

 

[wetcoast]

Mitch Marner is 10th all time in assists per game played, ahead of both. With his next assist he hits 500 by age 27.

Lafleur (who ranks well behind Ovi all time) was a solid 2nd in assists during his 6 year prime as well.

 

[abax44]

You sure have, as he feasts on your team, and has the most goals on the Jets than any team in the league, not to mention the Jets are in the other conference.

You say that like it's supposed to bother me.

He's got 26g and 12a in 32 games vs the Jets. He should calm down on the goals, he gonna get a rep as the all time best sniper if he keeps this crap up.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That's just complete bullshit as only 4 Habs from those teams are in the most recent top 100 list (18-19)

You seem to view this as preposterous. Good. So do I.

Beliveau, Harvey, Richard, Plante - all 1956 Canadians. All Ranked ahead of Ovechkin which would make Ovechkin the 5th greatest player on that team. That was the history forum consensus.

Of course, one of the regulars had Ovechkin ranked 59th all time, behind the 4 players listed above and also behind Dickie Moore, Bernie Geoffrion, and Henri Richard (all on that same team) - which would make Ovechkin the 8th greatest player on the 1956 Canadiens - like I said:

Thread 'Voting Record - quoipourquoi, Canadiens1958, steve141'

Apr 11, 2019

There’s 32 of these, so in order to avoid cluttering HOH, I’m thinking 3-per-thread. All participants should be getting the survey soon too. And I’ll be adding the linking to the main thread on Monday or Tuesday.

Voter	Rank	Player	Points		1		2
quoipourquoi	1	Wayne Gretzky	120	1	Wayne Gretzky	1	Patrick Roy
quoipourquoi	2	Gordie Howe	119	2	Gordie Howe	2	Maurice Richard

[TBODY] ...

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 142
• Forum: The History of Hockey

It's interesting that when I simply say what the result was, people act as if I am being unfair. It's as if they know it's a poor result but they want to stand behind it anyway.

The fact of the matter is that he became more of a shoot first type of player after the 10-11 season which is the last 14 years.

"Shoot first" - sure. I have no problem with that. But that is quite different from what the history forum regulars claimed. (and you seemingly know that, which is why you felt the need to change it from "only" to "first" - which is a distortion unto itself).

"Shoot-only" is blatantly false - especially for a player that is top 3 in hits, yet the history forum regulars doubled and tripled down on it. Not a single one of them chimed in to say "hey maybe this is a bit of an exaggeration." They all just rolled with it.

Nevermind that the project was evaluating total careers and so there is no rationale for ignoring the first 6 seasons as you've attempted to do here.

 

[Voight]

Once again an empty net goal. I'm giving my best effort to remain objective, but I must confess that I'm far from impressed. It is sad to admit but Ovechkin is a one-trick pony. That one trick used to be one-timers and now he has reinvented himself as his only trick is scoring empty netters. Don't get me wrong, I still like the guy and I definitely think he has had a fine career overall.

Username and avatar check out.