Ovechkin Milestone Thread - Countdown to 894 (Continued)

[BallardEra]

Holy f*** 19 posts and you and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye?

That was quick

Burner account

 

[wetcoast]

Me and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye but I think this is an interesting perspective. Why does the goal record matter in the first place? Why not just look at points instead? Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each. I think this might be just very selective cherry-picking of statistics. I mean, yes, the record is nice but at the end of the day, kinda trivial. I think the record tells more about Ovechkin's selfishness. In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does. Still, Ovechkin has a great shot and I respect it tremendeously.

This is the goal countdown thread, go to another thread about other matters and I expanded on my first point here in case you missed it.

I guess it might matter to some people for different reasons but at the end of the day history will show the number of goals and Ovi will be the leader and is unlikely to be caught baring some unforeseen transformation in any future NHL.

In short the historical record will just state the number of goals and his placement.

 

[wetcoast]

I don't want to derail this thread,

You're right but here is a quick response.

but why doesn't Messier ever appear on these lists?

Because he isn't even a top 5 center of all time (and that's before McDavid who will surely pass him.

He is right there at the top of those all time lists, and he won a bunch of Cups.

He's usually listed around 20th overall and the "won a bunch of Cups argument is a weak.

Is it because most think he was / is an asshole? lol serious question.

Other notables: Jagr, Francis, Yzerman.

This is a good place to learn and analyze top player lists.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time'

Nov 11, 2018

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time

The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community.

Report any errors to @quoipourquoi

Rank	Player	Position	Born	Nation	Birth City
1	Wayne Gretzky	C	1961	Canada	Brantford, Ontario
2	Gordie Howe	RW	1928	Canada	Floral...

[TBODY]

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 999
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is a good place to learn and analyze top player lists.

Eh, that is not a good resource.

Those guys concluded that Canada alone - with a population of 9-11 million people and during the great depression/world war 2 - developed two to three times as much elite hockey talent as the international hockey community does today.

It's just not plausible.

Nevermind the agendas, the routine hyperbole, the massive overrepresentation of Penguins fans, the antiquated emphasis on player nationality, and the demonstrable failures of accurate player evaluation.

 

[Dingo]

I don't want to derail this thread, but why doesn't Messier ever appear on these lists? He is right there at the top of those all time lists, and he won a bunch of Cups. Is it because most think he was / is an asshole? lol serious question.

Other notables: Jagr, Francis, Yzerman.

i dont personally think Messier is that close. I have a lot of guys ahead of him, but, i know there are a lot of posters in the HOH forum who think REALLY highly of him, too.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each.

Well, no, they don't actually have the same value.

I get it - that you are accustomed to assuming they are simply because somebody somewhere in hockey history decided to count them as the same, but that doesn't actually make it true.

There are approximately 1.72 assists per goal, and have been for about 70 years now. The all-time assists record (1963) is more than double the all-time goals record (894).

The opportunity to accumulate assists is vastly different than the opportunity to accumulate goals.

 

[wetcoast]

Eh, that is not a good resource.

Those guys concluded that Canada alone - with a population of 9-11 million people and during the great depression/world war 2 - developed two to three times as much elite hockey talent as the international hockey community does today.

It's just not plausible.

Nevermind the agendas, the routine hyperbole, the massive overrepresentation of Penguins fans, the antiquated emphasis on player nationality, and the demonstrable failures of accurate player evaluation.

That's why i stated

learn and analyze top player lists.

It's a good starting point and if one takes your POV he isn't even 20th in a Canadian bias effort but then again perhaps your bias is showing through here again.

The thing is that the HOH much like this section and sports fans in general put too much emphasis on SC or trophy counting and that's most likely the cause of the actual problem that you have with their list.

I have some problems with that list and the way it was formed but like I said for the poster saying that Moose should be on a top 6 list it's a good resource for them.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, no, they don't actually have the same value.

I get it - that you are accustomed to assuming they are simply because somebody somewhere in hockey history decided to count them as the same, but that doesn't actually make it true.

There are approximately 1.72 assists per goal, and have been for about 70 years now. The all-time assists record (1963) is more than double the all-time goals record (894).

The opportunity to accumulate assists is vastly different than the opportunity to accumulate goals.

It would be one thing if someone actually follows this line of thinking consistently but sadly it's usually only applied to some goal scorers and not others and there is more to hockey greatness than scoring goals and assists.

But this thread is about the goal record and things should get exciting down the stretch, let's leave other things like legacy and players comparison for the likely other thread that will emerge when the goals record is broken shall we?

 

[Midnight Judges]

The thing is that the HOH much like this section and sports fans in general put too much emphasis on SC or trophy counting and that's most likely the cause of the actual problem that you have with their list.

Nah the problem is that regulars over there routinely slander Ovechkin by claiming Ovie would be the 5th-9th greatest player on the 1956 Canadians, or Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer, or Ryan Getzlaf is a better player, or Ovechkin is a "shoot-only player" despite being top 10 in assists during his generation and top 40 all time in adjusted assists, and top 3 in hits.

It's a bit of an echo chamber.

 

[Toby91ca]

Me and wetcoast don't always see eye to eye but I think this is an interesting perspective. Why does the goal record matter in the first place? Why not just look at points instead? Both goals and assists have the same value: 1 point each. I think this might be just very selective cherry-picking of statistics. I mean, yes, the record is nice but at the end of the day, kinda trivial. I think the record tells more about Ovechkin's selfishness. In my humble opinion, he doesn't make his linemates better like Sid the Kid does. Still, Ovechkin has a great shot and I respect it tremendeously.

What are you talking about? It's fine if you want to argue total points are more important (i.e. 500 goals and 1,400pts is better than 600 goals and 1,350pts), but seriously, we shouldn't track goals at all then? Everyone goal scored we should just have 3 guys shown as the guys that got points? Goals and assists no longer need to exist?

If you think about all-time scoring records in NHL history, I think people would think about points record first (Gretzky by a long shot), then they'd look at goals record 2nd.....I think you are suggesting there should almost be no records if you are talking about ignoring the 2nd one people would think about.