Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[norrisnick]

But isn't it weird that a league that is 100 years old has 4 of the top 5 guys from the same era, doesn't that make it seem like you are too influenced by the high scoring eras of the 80s and early 90s?

With that said I don't even think its that bad of a list, I'm just nitpicking.

The bigger issue is the guy with 7 goal scoring titles is 8th. Had Bobby not left the NHL there's a good chance that Ov would still have to pass him on the way to Wayne.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The bigger issue is the guy with 7 goal scoring titles is 8th. Had Bobby not left the NHL there's a good chance that Ov would still have to pass him on the way to Wayne.

Agreed. But it was a pretty good list overall. I think he has the right top 9, just that some of them are out of order (Bossy and Brett Hull being too high, and Bobby Hull being too low).

The 10th spot is wide open and Lafleur isn't a bad choice (personally I'd go for Jagr but I realize I'm in the minority on that one).

 

[Calderon]

The bigger issue is the guy with 7 goal scoring titles is 8th. Had Bobby not left the NHL there's a good chance that Ov would still have to pass him on the way to Wayne.

I just listened to a podcast where this guy said he had read a book of Bobby Hull and Hull was reminiscing his playing days and how back then goalies didn't have much of a face mask -- if any -- and so he had a habit of aiming a couple shots at goalies head in the beginning of games so that they became timid and then when later on in the game Hull again came ready to shoot the goalie was like hell no not this again and then Hull just shot in the bottom corner and "it went on every time". Now of course this story is anecdotal by nature and some of the goalies back then were absolute sickos in terms of how brave and fearless they were but one kinda gets a sense that skaters were in an advantageous position against the goalies compared to hockey from something like late 1970s and on. Not that it takes away from the domination of peers that Hull did...

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Passing Howe and Hitting 800 soon! Greatest Goal Scorer of All Time!



Top 10 Goal Scorers of All Time imo.

1. Alexander Ovechkin
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Brett Hull
4. Mike Bossy
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Gordie Howe
7. Maurice Richard
8. Bobby Hull
9. Phil Esposito
10. Guy Lafleur

I know this is a thread about OV so I don't want to go off topic but there is absolutely zero argument to have Bossy ahead of Gretzky.

 

[Caps8112]

I'm probably in brain fog right now....but what does this mean?

Was saying he is currently 99 goals ahead of messier which is dumb but neat since gretzky.....99 ..

 

[Zuluss]

FWIW, with two assists today Ovechkin tied MSL in career assists.
MSL was a great playmaker, and some people attributed a lot of young Stamkos' goalscoring to playing with MSL.

 

[TJHKY]

 

[tarheelhockey]

I just listened to a podcast where this guy said he had read a book of Bobby Hull and Hull was reminiscing his playing days and how back then goalies didn't have much of a face mask -- if any -- and so he had a habit of aiming a couple shots at goalies head in the beginning of games so that they became timid and then when later on in the game Hull again came ready to shoot the goalie was like hell no not this again and then Hull just shot in the bottom corner and "it went on every time". Now of course this story is anecdotal by nature and some of the goalies back then were absolute sickos in terms of how brave and fearless they were but one kinda gets a sense that skaters were in an advantageous position against the goalies compared to hockey from something like late 1970s and on. Not that it takes away from the domination of peers that Hull did...

I think this dynamic generally tends to balance out, as the "arms race" of improvements to goalies and shooters stays pretty even. At one time goalies had no masks and their skates/padding practically forced them into the old-school standup style, but then again the shooters were using flat-bladed wooden sticks and were moving much more slowly on tube skates. Then the shooters added curves to their blades, so the goalies added masks. The goalies upgraded to modern materials and butterfly-enabling pads, at around the same time shooters started using composite sticks. The rulebook changed to encourage a faster and more open game, so teams started looking for huge goalies who could play the percentages. And so on and so forth into the future.

I think you're right that there was an inflection point in the early-to-mid-1960s where shooters started developing some tricks to upset that balance. Curved blades were the big one. The funny thing, though, is that the same period of time was marked by lower scoring, not higher. 1964 had about the same leaguewide GAA as 2001. That was the same time that players were adopting curved blades and figuring out how to use them.

Hull had a specific advantage because his shot was just so damn heavy. He was an athletic specimen and could rip slap shots at a modern speed with a wooden stick, while in full skating flight. Even today, a guy like that could come along and shoot at goalies' heads off the rush and they would not be too happy about it. Prior to goalie masks, forget about it. I'm not sure how much we can "adjust" his scoring to account for this, considering it was a valid part of his skill set which would somewhat translate to the present, but it might be fair to say that his winning the goalscoring race by 50% doesn't quite translate 1:1 into modern results. Someone would have to be quite a bit better than Hull to score 75 goals while the nearest competitor scored 50 in the modern league. Ovechkin never came anywhere close to that kind of statistical separation, and they resemble each other so much that it's valid to ask whether Hull's peak goalscoring numbers are contextually inflated similar to e.g. peak Gretzky's.

 

[Randyne]

back then goalies didn't have much of a face mask -- if any -- and so he had a habit of aiming a couple shots at goalies head in the beginning of games so that they became timid and then when later on in the game Hull again came ready to shoot the goalie was like hell no not this again and then Hull just shot in the bottom corner and "it went on every time"

Not that it takes away from the domination of peers that Hull did...

If other players didn't do this, it takes away a lot... Poor goalies...

 

[TJHKY]

 

[Sentinel]

My list would be something like this:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Alexander Ovechkin
3. Mike Bossy
4. Bobby Hull
5. Maurice Richard
6. Phil Esposito
7. Mario Lemieux
8. Brett Hull
9. Gordie Howe
10. Pavel Bure

 

[Hippasus]

My list would be something like this:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Alexander Ovechkin
3. Mike Bossy
4. Bobby Hull
5. Maurice Richard
6. Phil Esposito
7. Mario Lemieux
8. Brett Hull
9. Gordie Howe
10. Jaromir Jagr

Brett Hull should be higher due to his peak. Otherwise I like your list.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

ALL CAPS

 

[Calderon]

Might as well post my list. I didn't delve too deep into stats and ignored everyone predating Maurice Richard's era.

The best goal scorers of all time:
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Alexander Ovechkin
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Bobby Hull
5. Gordie Howe
6. Phil Esposito
7. Mike Bossy
8. Brett Hull
9. Maurice Richard
10. Pavel Bure

A few points:
- There is some flexibility in the top 4 but I feel pretty good with this order.
- Ovechkin has a better claim for 1st if he has just another 60+ goal (or otherwise dominant) season
- I can appreciate arguments putting Mario over Wayne but I kinda end up with the same arguments as with point producing: Mario could've and would've but Gretzky actually did.
- Bossy's spot is pretty firm, clearly below the 1st tier.
- I guess Bure isn't a slam dunk member of the top 10 but taking someone over him feels surprisingly difficult. I think Selänne is the closest.

Would be interesting to rank them in several different criteria (peak, prime, longevity, goal scoring leads, playoff scoring, supporting cast, EV vs. PP, quality of competition etc.) and then calculate an average score but that's for another time and would need quite a lot of research.

 

[TJHKY]

 

[OldCraig71]

 

[hockeykicker]

99 goals behind now. Officially under 100 with two goals tonight

 

[Dessloch]

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal, but the Caps are really planning their line changes the last 3-4 minutes to make sure he gets the free empty netters. That is true dedication from the coaching staff and players!

 

[BallardEra]

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal.

Only 5 back of Gretzky now!

 

[Neil Racki]

ALL CAPS

When you spell the mans name

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal.

Relax man … we’re here to party

 

[Stealth1616]

Brace yourselves everyone.. for the empty net goal crybabies

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal, but the Caps are really planning their line changes the last 3-4 minutes to make sure he gets the free empty netters. That is true dedication from the coaching staff and players!

Have a water.

 

[Firsov99]

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal.

As we watched different games. Ovi typically plays much more passively in the D-zone, but here, since he really wanted break his small goalless streak, he spent tons of energy to take the puck away. This was clearly visible before he scored the second one.

 

[norrisnick]

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal, but the Caps are really planning their line changes the last 3-4 minutes to make sure he gets the free empty netters. That is true dedication from the coaching staff and players!

You know what seals the deal late in games when the other team is pressing? An empty net goal or two.

 

[Rengorlex]

Embarrassing stuff there, Ovi standing completely parked in the D zone while the Flyers peppering shots just to preserve energy to get that 2nd empty net goal, but the Caps are really planning their line changes the last 3-4 minutes to make sure he gets the free empty netters. That is true dedication from the coaching staff and players!

Capital franchise has always been about maximising Ovechkin's totals. A marketing tool.