Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,428
15,558
On the topic of goals versus assists, I did a deep dive into this a few years ago.

My general conclusion is primary assists have nearly the same value as goals, and although secondary assists have less value than either, points are still the best "simple" method to evaluate a player's offensive contribution. (You can start assigning fractional weights to goals, primary assists and secondary assists, but you're making things much more complex and gaining fairly little value).

The article went like this - generally, something has value if it can be repeated from year to year. Using 1,200+ data points, I found that goals have virtually the same predictive value, year over year, as primary assists. And although secondary assists have relatively little predictive value on their own, total assists are more predictive than just goals. And total points is more predictive than anything else. This is statistical evidence that points (by virtue of being more predictive from year to year) are more valuable than either goals or assists in isolation. Link

I also did another study where I looked at what stats correlate with a forward's salary. Total points produced a higher correlation than either goals or assists in isolation - meaning that, all other things being equal, points are a bigger drive of a forward's compensation than either goal-scoring or playmaking in isolation. Granted, we don't know if the GM's always make good decisions. But they're paid a lot of money, and are under intense scrutiny from owners and from fans. So if points correlates more strongly than goals (or assists) in isolation, that's a pretty good argument for it's value. It's possible that every GM is wrong and they're just following tradition - but in this age of advanced analytics, if GM's were overpaying for assists, surely a few teams would realize this and stock up on goal-scorers, who would be comparatively undervalued - and there's no evidence this is happening.

Obviously, most fans look at points because that's what the NHL has prioritized for more than a century. But there's statistical evidence that, in general, points have more informational value than either goals or assists in isolation.
 

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
14,295
11,136
Even with Ovechkin's specialty: the one-timer. It's a result of Ovechkin's shot for sure. But it also doesn't happen if A) the player passing doesn't lay out a perfect pass and B) other players don't adequately work the puck around so that Ovechkin is in the clear.

That's not completely accurate.

One of the things that makes Ovechkin effective is his ability to get great shots off even when the pass was poor. Ovie gets good wood on rolling pucks pretty regularly.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,634
11,529
On the topic of goals versus assists, I did a deep dive into this a few years ago.

My general conclusion is primary assists have nearly the same value as goals, and although secondary assists have less value than either, points are still the best "simple" method to evaluate a player's offensive contribution. (You can start assigning fractional weights to goals, primary assists and secondary assists, but you're making things much more complex and gaining fairly little value).

The article went like this - generally, something has value if it can be repeated from year to year. Using 1,200+ data points, I found that goals have virtually the same predictive value, year over year, as primary assists. And although secondary assists have relatively little predictive value on their own, total assists are more predictive than just goals. And total points is more predictive than anything else. This is statistical evidence that points (by virtue of being more predictive from year to year) are more valuable than either goals or assists in isolation. Link

I also did another study where I looked at what stats correlate with a forward's salary. Total points produced a higher correlation than either goals or assists in isolation - meaning that, all other things being equal, points are a bigger drive of a forward's compensation than either goal-scoring or playmaking in isolation. Granted, we don't know if the GM's always make good decisions. But they're paid a lot of money, and are under intense scrutiny from owners and from fans. So if points correlates more strongly than goals (or assists) in isolation, that's a pretty good argument for it's value. It's possible that every GM is wrong and they're just following tradition - but in this age of advanced analytics, if GM's were overpaying for assists, surely a few teams would realize this and stock up on goal-scorers, who would be comparatively undervalued - and there's no evidence this is happening.

Obviously, most fans look at points because that's what the NHL has prioritized for more than a century. But there's statistical evidence that, in general, points have more informational value than either goals or assists in isolation.

Thanks I was going to reference this but I always have problems bookmarking posts then bringing them up again...that and I'm in total disagreement with you that Jean Beliveau has been the better or greater player than Sidney Crosby but that perhaps might be the single thing we disagree on ....for now.:naughty:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neil Racki

Toby91ca

Registered User
Oct 17, 2022
2,447
1,811
As I've said, the only thing I see as objective to offensive production is the act of scoring a goal. That's objective. You last touch the puck and it goes in, it's your goal.
How is that anymore objective than an assist? Last person to touch the puck before it goes in the gets credit for the goal.....but 2nd last person to touch the puck is credited with an assist.....how is one more objective than the other? Doesn't make sense.

If I shoot the puck and it hits my teammate's ankle and goes in the net, he gets credit for the goal and I get an assist.....the goal is objective and the assist is subjective? I don't get it, but maybe I don't get why we are even debating what is subjective vs. objective either.

The argument I could understand would be someone suggesting a goal should be worth more, but I'd disagree just about as strong as I could possibly disagree with anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pi314

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,634
11,529
That's not completely accurate.

One of the things that makes Ovechkin effective is his ability to get great shots off even when the pass was poor. Ovie gets good wood on rolling pucks pretty regularly.

Is there literally any evidence of this like anywhere?

To give this some context Ovi has completely missed the net (included is posts and crossbars for maybe .05% to be fair) 2356 times out of 10573 SOG attempts so around 23% of the time.

Just for fun I compared Austin Matthews who has a similar rate and the 2 other highest goal scorers since Ovi has been in the league, Stamkos and Crosby have better rates but they also aren't high volume shooters for the most part either.
 

hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
21,530
15,055
Pickering, Ontario
Ovechkin isn't any way comparable to Lemiuex as an overall player

Goal scorer sure OVs greater

However 60 games of Lemieux >> 82 games of OV

Lemiuex is the 1st to 3rd best offensive player ever along with 99 and 9, and maybe 97

OV isn't on those guys level (neither is Crosby imo)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neil Racki

Nasti

Registered User
Jan 30, 2006
4,428
6,005
Long Beach, CA
Worth noting that Gretzky broke Howe’s record at the age of 33 and almost immediately stopped scoring goals at the same rate. Almost as though his primary focus was setting other players up since he didn’t have a record to chase anymore.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,634
11,529
You'd have to watch the games.

So no, not for you I guess.

I do watch quite a few of his games, probably as many non Canuck games as most other players and that trait really doesn't stand out but perhaps it might to you as Ovi is often standing still to get shots off while most other players are moving.

Either way you brought it up so aside from showing a couple of clips from those 10000 shot attempts is there any evidence here? (Asking for many who know your bias here)

Worth noting that Gretzky broke Howe’s record at the age of 33 and almost immediately stopped scoring goals at the same rate. Almost as though his primary focus was setting other players up since he didn’t have a record to chase anymore.

Gretzky's goal scoring rate both in real counting numbers and adjusted went down a noticeable level at age 27 already.

Then at 33 it did go down to another level as well but part of that is simply aging.
 

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
14,295
11,136
I do watch quite a few of his games, probably as many non Canuck games as most other players and that trait really doesn't stand out but perhaps it might to you as Ovi is often standing still to get shots off while most other players are moving.

Either way you brought it up so aside from showing a couple of clips from those 10000 shot attempts is there any evidence here? (Asking for many who know your bias here)

Hopefully someone can provide some data that the potential all-time shots leader and the potential all-time goals leader is especially good at getting shots off.

If only someone had some data....
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,634
11,529
Hopefully someone can provide some data that the potential all-time shots leader and the potential all-time goals leader is especially good at getting shots off.

If only someone had some data....

Sure but this is waht you said

That's not completely accurate.

One of the things that makes Ovechkin effective is his ability to get great shots off even when the pass was poor. Ovie gets good wood on rolling pucks pretty regularly.

That seems to be an implication that guys like Carlson and Backstrom were somehow crappy playmakers or something when that doesn't even make sense.

But you are right with the number of SOG attempts that Ovi has made over his career it may seem like to some observers that he sees more poor passes at first glance but like I said you have nothing to back it up and it's virtually meaningless on people view him as a player.

Put another way if 2 people were arguing about who was the better goal scorer over the last 5 years between Ovechkin and Matthews some guy who thinks that AM is the better goal scorer isn't going to change his mind by your assertion or likely even give it much merit at all.
 

MeHateHe

Registered User
Dec 24, 2006
2,707
3,110
Hopefully someone can provide some data that the potential all-time shots leader and the potential all-time goals leader is especially good at getting shots off.

If only someone had some data....
If you're saying that his success rate when the pass is good is equal - or even close - to his success rate when the pass is poor, then you might want to show some evidence of that, because that doesn't pass the smell test. I'd be willing to put money on the hypothesis that better than 90 per cent of his one-time goals are from better-than-average passes. Or are you suggesting that he'd score at a high rate with AHL-quality teammates?
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,649
18,970
A couple years ago 894 seemed somewhat out of reach, he'd have to maintain a high level of scoring into his late 30's or play well into his 40's but now he's only 112 goals away from the all time record at 37 years old.
 

Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,914
7,323
Is there literally any evidence of this like anywhere?

To give this some context Ovi has completely missed the net (included is posts and crossbars for maybe .05% to be fair) 2356 times out of 10573 SOG attempts so around 23% of the time.

Just for fun I compared Austin Matthews who has a similar rate and the 2 other highest goal scorers since Ovi has been in the league, Stamkos and Crosby have better rates but they also aren't high volume shooters for the most part either.
The evidence is "trust me bro, he plays for my favorite team" lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: wetcoast

NatusVincere

Registered User
Nov 30, 2018
409
554
No, you're arguing that counting goals is "objective" and counting assists is "subjective." It's ahistorical and nonsensical.

Hockey's a team game. Goals almost never happen just because of one player. It's a key reason why it's one of the few sports in which multiple assists are awarded on goals. Want to argue that the NHL hands out assists too easily? I will agree with that. However, claiming that goals are "objective" and assists are "subjective" is foolish and completely misunderstands how the game is played and how games are ultimately won.

The NHL itself changed its rules how to award a assist several times. There was a time when only one assist was counted. And as far as I know the Soviets counted only one assist too (?) The assignment of assists and how they are counted is definitely subjective.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Randyne

Fallschirmyager

Registered User
Jun 25, 2009
5,482
866
The NHL itself changed its rules how to award a assist several times. There was a time when only one assist was counted. And as far as I know the Soviets counted only one assist too (?) The assignment of assists and how they are counted is definitely subjective.

A goal can exist without an assist but an assist can't exist without a goal. So why should 2 assists be equal to a goal? I don't think even, "subjective" covers it.
 

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
14,295
11,136
Sure but this is waht you said



That seems to be an implication that guys like Carlson and Backstrom were somehow crappy playmakers or something when that doesn't even make sense.

Nope, that isn't the implication.

In hockey, not every pass is going to be perfect no matter how good the passer is. Some players are better at adjusting to a poor pass than others. Some players are better are shooting rolling pucks than others. Ovechkin is one such player. Anybody who watches the games would know that.

But you are a huge Crosby fan and so you doubt that the soon-to-be all-time shots leader is especially good at getting shots off.

The evidence is "trust me bro, he plays for my favorite team" lol

Or maybe - just maybe - 6000 shots (#2 all time) and 783 goals (#3 all time) are evidence that Ovechkin is pretty good at getting shots off.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad