Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Again, if it was Gretzky, you could say that and get away with it. But the reality is it’s very close, and I personally have to go with the absolute one man wrecking machine that was 2008 OV. I also prefer OV’s entire career over Mario by a landslide. Nobody is winning 7 rockets in 8 years again in our lifetime.

I think in 10 years, when we look back on OV’s career with the same nostalgia that Mario constantly gets afforded, we will say OV > Mario, because Mario is a ‘what if’ and OV is the greatest goal scorer that ever lived.

Not sure if serious lmfaoooo lemieux is far away better than ovechkin n that includes goal scoring

I can also make an argument that Hasek should be ranked above Lemieux. In fact, I made that argument twelve years ago.

You can make the argument but ud be the only one on this earth to do so

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lemieux is so far ahead of Ovechkin it's really not fair to Ovechkin.

Hart finishes
Lemieux: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5,
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 10

Removing same finishes
Lemieux: 2, 3, 4, 5
Ovechkin: 6, 6, 7, 10

Adjusted points (even if I hate the HR formula)
Lemieux - 165
Lemieux - 156 (missed 12 games)
Lemieux - 141
Lemieux - 129 (missed 24 games)
Lemieux - 127
Ovechkin - 122
Ovechkin - 117
Lemieux - 116 (missed 18 games)
Ovechkin - 114
Lemieux - 110
Ovechkin - 107
Ovechkin - 104

Adjusted goals
Ovechkin - 72
Lemieux - 71 (missed 6 games)
Lemieux - 67 (missed 12 games)
Ovechkin - 62
Ovechkin - 60 (missed 1 game)
Lemieux - 59 (missed 5 games)
Ovechkin - 59 (missed 3 games)
Ovechkin - 58 (missed 4 games)
Ovechkin - 58 (missed 1 game)
Ovechkin - 57 (missed 3 games)
Lemieux - 56 (missed 24 games)
Ovechkin - 55 (missed 10 games)
Lemieux - 52 (missed 6 games)
Ovechkin - 52 (missed 1 game)
Ovechkin - 52 (missed 1 game)
Ovechkin - 50


They might be comparable in goal scoring peak (though Lemieux would have the top 4 in adjusted goals per game), but the total offensive production is not even close.

Lemieux has the five highest adjusted scoring seasons (and top six if you look at per game).

I think Lemieux is the most vulnerable of the Big Four, but he's so clearly a tier ahead of Ovechkin in all-time lists.

 

[norrisnick]

I haven't heard any Crosby fans trying to make the argument that he's better than Lemieux.

And? It's not like there's been any shortage of other dumb shit argued about him and others. Comparisons to Lemieux are not the only way to be delusional.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Lemieux is so far ahead of Ovechkin it's really not fair to Ovechkin.

Hart finishes
Lemieux: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5,
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 10

Removing same finishes
Lemieux: 2, 3, 4, 5
Ovechkin: 6, 6, 7, 10

Looking pretty darn close to me in the only relevant area to judge players from different eras.

Adjusted points (even if I hate the HR formula)
Lemieux - 165
Lemieux - 156 (missed 12 games)
Lemieux - 141
Lemieux - 129 (missed 24 games)
Lemieux - 127
Ovechkin - 122
Ovechkin - 117
Lemieux - 116 (missed 18 games)
Ovechkin - 114
Lemieux - 110
Ovechkin - 107
Ovechkin - 104

People love using these adjusted point and goal totals on this board. No, there isn’t a formula that allows you to compare point totals of a post lockout player to a player in the 80s.

Adjusted goals
Ovechkin - 72
Lemieux - 71 (missed 6 games)
Lemieux - 67 (missed 12 games)
Ovechkin - 62
Ovechkin - 60 (missed 1 game)
Lemieux - 59 (missed 5 games)
Ovechkin - 59 (missed 3 games)
Ovechkin - 58 (missed 4 games)
Ovechkin - 58 (missed 1 game)
Ovechkin - 57 (missed 3 games)
Lemieux - 56 (missed 24 games)
Ovechkin - 55 (missed 10 games)
Lemieux - 52 (missed 6 games)
Ovechkin - 52 (missed 1 game)
Ovechkin - 52 (missed 1 game)
Ovechkin - 50


They might be comparable in goal scoring peak (though Lemieux would have the top 4 in adjusted goals per game), but the total offensive production is not even close.

Lemieux has the five highest adjusted scoring seasons (and top six if you look at per game).

Yeah, I hate adjusted stats. Just tell me how he dominated against his peers. It’s pretty equal.

I think Lemieux is the most vulnerable of the Big Four, but he's so clearly a tier ahead of Ovechkin in all-time lists.

He’s so clearly not, if you look at the relevant stats with regards to how they dominated in their era. Very close and you could take either one over the other by a hair. Pretending there is a right answer is silly.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lemieux winning the Art Ross by 8% while missing 24 games is an accomplishment so far above anything Ovechkin has done.

Lemieux had multiple years being the best goal scorer in the league, while being the best non Gretzky playmaker. Ovechkin has never once been the best playmaker.

In 88-89, Lemieux more than doubled 10th place in scoring (199 points to 98 points)

Ovechkin's only lead was 25 points (30%).

00-01 was as low scoring a season as Ovechkin ever played in (+-5%). Lemieux had more goals and points in 43 games than Ovechkin did in any 43 game stretch of his career.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Lemieux winning the Art Ross by 8% while missing 24 games is an accomplishment so far above anything Ovechkin has done.

OV winning a rocket by 25% over the #2 is more impressive than any goal scoring lead Lemieux ever had. OV winning 7 rockets in 8 years is more impressive to me than anything lemieux has ever done.

Lemieux had multiple years being the best goal scorer in the league, while being the best non Gretzky playmaker. Ovechkin has never once been the best playmaker.

Lemieux has 3 retro rockets. There was always a debate about if he’s the best goal scorer, it was never undisputed. Best ‘non Gretzky’ playmaker is hilarious. Such a cop out to avoid facing the fact that Lemieux’s stats has holes in them.

In 88-89, Lemieux more than doubled 10th place in scoring (199 points to 98 points)

Ovechkin's only lead was 25 points (30%).

00-01 was as low scoring a season as Ovechkin ever played in (+-5%). Lemieux had more goals and points in 43 games than Ovechkin did in any 43 game stretch of his career.

Actually that season had slightly higher scoring than 2013, a lockout shortened season where OV scored 32 goals in 48 games(31 in final 43). Lemieux also got to jump into the middle of the season, while OV played every game he possibly could in Russia and the NHL combined that season.

 

[jigglysquishy]

OV winning a rocket by 25% over the #2 is more impressive than any goal scoring lead Lemieux ever had. OV winning 7 rockets in 8 years is more impressive to me than anything lemieux has ever done.

Lemieux has 3 retro rockets. There was always a debate about if he’s the best goal scorer, it was never undisputed. Best ‘non Gretzky’ playmaker is hilarious. Such a cop out to avoid facing the fact that Lemieux’s stats has holes in them.

Actually that season had slightly higher scoring than 2013, a lockout shortened season where OV scored 32 goals in 48 games(31 in final 43). Lemieux also got to jump into the middle of the season, while OV played every game he possibly could in Russia and the NHL combined that season.

Lemieux lead #2 in GPG by 25% in 1989.

Lemieux lead the league in GPG a further 3 times. Lemieux wasn't as good of a playmaker as Gretzky, but that's hardly a knock. He lead the league in APG 5 times. It would have been 9 if not for Gretzky.

Compare the seasons straight up.

Lemieux - 43 GP 35 G 41 A 76 P
Ovechkin - 48 GP 32 G 23 A 56 P

20 more points in 5 less games.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

People really comparing him to Lemieux now? Ovechkin is barely a ppg player over the last ten years. What a joke.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Lemieux lead #2 in GPG by 25% in 1989.

Every Lemieux argument loves bringing up pace. OV actually led number 2 in goals by 25%. He actually did what lemieux was projected to do in goal scoring, and as time goes on people will appreciate that more.

Lemieux lead the league in GPG a further 3 times. Lemieux wasn't as good of a playmaker as Gretzky, but that's hardly a knock. He lead the league in APG 5 times. It would have been 9 if not for Gretzky.

Compare the seasons straight up.

Lemieux - 43 GP 35 G 41 A 76 P
Ovechkin - 48 GP 32 G 23 A 56 P

20 more points in 5 less games.

OV did it in a season where he played the whole year. Lemieux taking time off, resting, and then jumping in the middle of a season is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Yeah the comparison with Lemieux as an all around player is a stretch for sure. However, as a goalscorer, Ovechkin has proved that he's hands down the best, even better than Lemieux or Gretzky.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Yeah the comparison with Lemieux as an all around player is a stretch for sure. However, as a goalscorer, Ovechkin has proved that he's hands down the best, even better than Lemieux or Gretzky.

From a value perspective, I’d prefer my team to draft the greatest goal scorer ever that always plays rather than the arguably 2nd best all around player that plays half the time.

 

[Beau Knows]

From a value perspective, I’d prefer my team to draft the greatest goal scorer ever that always plays rather than the arguably 2nd best all around player that plays half the time.

Isn't there more value in drafting the guy who won back to back Cups via dominating performances that Ovechkin simply isn't capable of?

That's no insult to Ovechkin, he's one of the best playoff players of his era, but he could never dream of matching what Lemieux did in 91 and 92. I'd certainly value that kind of post-season play over having someone who plays more games at a far lower level.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Isn't there more value in drafting the guy who won back to back Cups via dominating performances that Ovechkin simply isn't capable of?

You’re right, OV was able to do it with only 1 hall of famer, and not 7. He had to beat better teams with big performances instead of simply just being on the best team.

That's no insult to Ovechkin, he's one of the best playoff players of his era, but he could never dream of matching what Lemieux did in 91 and 92. I'd certainly value that kind of post-season play over having someone who plays more games at a far lower level.

This is no insult to Lemieux, but he didn’t win anything without a stacked team in a league with little to no parity. You kind of have to stay healthy and get a little lucky on the way these days. You can swap Lemieux with OV on those pens teams and they still win, but Lemieux wouldn’t have won on that 2018 capitals team, where playing in each game was necessary to even make the playoffs. His 26 regular season games were impressive when he played though. Kucherov gets knocked for jumping into the playoffs without the wear and tear of the regular season and dominating, but when Lemieux does it it’s just conveniently ignored.

 

[Beau Knows]

You’re right, OV was able to do it with only 1 hall of famer, and not 7. He had to beat better teams with big performances instead of simply just being on the best team.

This is no insult to Lemieux, but he didn’t win anything without a stacked team in a league with little to no parity. You kind of have to stay healthy and get a little lucky on the way these days. You can swap Lemieux with OV on those pens teams and they still win, but Lemieux wouldn’t have won on that 2018 capitals team, where playing in each game was necessary to even make the playoffs. His 26 regular season games were impressive when he played though.

If you replace Lemieux with Ovechkin they lose both those Cups. You're talking about getting rid of one of the best playoff performers of all-time and replacing him with a sub-ppg player. Ovechkin has made it past the 2nd round once in 17 years despite playing on many excellent teams, I don't see why 91 or 92 would be any different.

For Ovechkin to match Lemieux's career playoff output he'll need to have played about 70-80 more games than him. The difference in their play (especially in the post-season) is just too big to overcome through any value added by better health.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

If you replace Lemieux with Ovechkin they lose both those Cups. You're talking about getting rid of one of the best playoff performers of all-time and replacing him with a sub-ppg player.

Oh nice, bringing up points to prop up Lemieux. The reality is you are replacing one of the best playoff performers of his generation with another player who is one of the best playoff performers of his generation. You look petty trying to diminish a Conn Smythe winners playoff performances. Try harder.

Ovechkin has made it past the 2nd round once in 17 years despite playing on many excellent teams, I don't see why 91 or 92 would be any different.

No, the Penguins with their 8 hall of famers is an excellent team. OVs capitals are ranked pretty low in comparison to other cup winners, especially that 91 penguins squad.

For Ovechkin to match Lemieux's career playoff output he'll need to have played about 70-80 more games than him. The difference in their play (especially in the post-season) is just too big to overcome through any value added by better health.

OV is tied for first in PPG in the playoffs since he entered the league, and has more goals than anyone in the playoffs in that time period. I’d say he dominated his peers in the playoffs in similar fashion that Lemieux did.

 

[Beau Knows]

Oh nice, bringing up points to prop up Lemieux. The reality is you are replacing one of the best playoff performers of his generation with another player who is one of the best playoff performers of his generation. You look petty trying to diminish a Conn Smythe winners playoff performances. Try harder.

Trying to say that Ovechkin can replace Lemieux in the playoffs is the definition of petty, come on now.

OV is tied for first in PPG in the playoffs since he entered the league, and has more goals than anyone in the playoffs in that time period. I’d say he dominated his peers in the playoffs in similar fashion that Lemieux did.

Power play goals? Uh ok.

Because if you mean points per game, among active players he's 13th, a far cry from Lemieux's domination.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Every Lemieux argument loves bringing up pace. OV actually led number 2 in goals by 25%. He actually did what lemieux was projected to do in goal scoring, and as time goes on people will appreciate that more.

OV did it in a season where he played the whole year. Lemieux taking time off, resting, and then jumping in the middle of a season is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Totally, it's so much easier to jump back in after not playing for 3 years. Like have you ever played sports in your life?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Trying to say that Ovechkin can replace Lemieux in the playoffs is the definition of petty, come on now.

Trying to say that OV could win a cup with that stacked penguins squad isn’t petty. The penguins won their division and Lemieux played 26 games…which if OV only played 26 games in 2018, they wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

Power play goals? Uh ok.

Because if you mean points per game, among active players he's 13th, a far cry from Lemieux's domination.

Yes, power play goals. He leads players in the playoffs in a couple goal scoring metrics, and won a conn Smythe. He’s a dominant playoff performer.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Totally, it's so much easier to jump back in after not playing for 3 years. Like have you ever played sports in your life?

It’s 3 years not 30. I’ve taken long periods of time off from things I’m good at and I come back much more refreshed and do really well before the endurance factor kicks in.

 

[Dingo]

I can also make an argument that Hasek should be ranked above Lemieux. In fact, I made that argument twelve years ago.

there is a good case for having the best at every position before you start doubling up on positions, imo

does anyone have Backstrom’s career points and games played without Ovechkin?

 

[Beau Knows]

Yes, power play goals. He leads players in the playoffs in a couple goal scoring metrics, and won a conn Smythe. He’s a dominant playoff performer.

Yes, like I said he's one of the best of his era, but far below Lemieux.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

From a value perspective, I’d prefer my team to draft the greatest goal scorer ever that always plays rather than the arguably 2nd best all around player that plays half the time.

I think this understates the gap in their overall play a bit. Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer ever for sure, but Lemieux is also a top 5 goalscorer of all time, while being universally ranked 2-4th best player of all time (usually closer to 2nd).

In a short window like a playoff series, I would see him outperforming Ovi maybe 8 times out of 10.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin scored #500 against the Sens and #600 against the Jets.

I wonder if #800 comes against the Sens on December 22 or the Jets on December 23rd?

Not very likely given the way he is playing this season but frankly I think the Capitals are going to continue to throw him out there just to score goals at any cost as it's not like they have alot of other options.

 

[wetcoast]

Every Lemieux argument loves bringing up pace. OV actually led number 2 in goals by 25%. He actually did what lemieux was projected to do in goal scoring, and as time goes on people will appreciate that more.

OV did it in a season where he played the whole year. Lemieux taking time off, resting, and then jumping in the middle of a season is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Man you need to give it a rest Mario scored 15 more goals than the guy in 2nd place in 89 while missing 4 games and oh yeah Bernie Nicholls the guys in 2nd place had some guy named Gretzky feeding him all year.

Not that your argument has any weight here, even the most ardent Ovi supporters must be cringing at your assertion that Ovi is somehow better all time than Mario.

 

[Toby91ca]

Oh nice, bringing up points to prop up Lemieux. The reality is you are replacing one of the best playoff performers of his generation with another player who is one of the best playoff performers of his generation. You look petty trying to diminish a Conn Smythe winners playoff performances. Try harder.

No, the Penguins with their 8 hall of famers is an excellent team. OVs capitals are ranked pretty low in comparison to other cup winners, especially that 91 penguins squad.

OV is tied for first in PPG in the playoffs since he entered the league, and has more goals than anyone in the playoffs in that time period. I’d say he dominated his peers in the playoffs in similar fashion that Lemieux did.

Did you just get mad because sometime mentioned points to argue why Lemieux is better than Ovechkin? Am I reading that correctly? Points don't matter? Should all be about goals? You've gone on to mention all these stats that Ovechkin leads in (all different goal stats).

There's actually a lot of people out there that would argue Lemieux was even the better goal scorer. Not sure I'd agree with that as I do think longevity comes into the picture and matters, but it's not like Lemieux only has 450 goals, he has close to 700 and his career goal per game stat is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Ovechkin's. So, not saying I'd agree, but lots of people could make that argument without looking like idiots.

So, while I think people can argue Lemieux is a better goal scorer than Ovechkin without looking like idiots, I would disagree with them, but at the same time, I think it's hard to argue Ovechkin is the better overall player without coming off as looking kind of stupid......this is coming from a guy who is not a big fan of Lemieux and a strong hater in everyone that argued he would have broken all Gretzky's records if and if and if.....even though Gretzky's per game stats are higher and even though Gretzky's stats likely would have been MUCH higher if he didn't get seriously injured and was never the same after 1991.....for clarity, I'm not Gretzky's biggest fan either....nothing against him, just stating I'm not a Gretzky homer.

Man you need to give it a rest Mario scored 15 more goals than the guy in 2nd place in 89 while missing 4 games and oh yeah Bernie Nicholls the guys in 2nd place had some guy named Gretzky feeding him all year.

Not that your argument has any weight here, even the most ardent Ivo supporters must be cringing at your assertion that Ovi is somehow better all time than Mario.

That's what I was suggesting early on.....it's so far out, I think we may be 1 of 1 in terms of that group.