Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[bobholly39]

He is spot on though.

Crosby led the league in goals TWICE and in assists ONCE. Ovechkin led the league in goals NINE times. That's THREE TIMES MORE than Crosby's goals and assists COMBINED. Once future generations see that... forget it Crosby's lone nail to hang his hat on -- PPG -- will diminish later in his career.

Yeah but the NHL has always measured offense by points - not goals or assists, but a combination of the 2.

Ovechkin won more rockets, great.

Player A scores 100 points 10 seasons in a row. Mix of goals and assists.
Player B scores 55 goals 10 seasons in a row, but 0 assists. So - a 55 point player, but happens to win 10 rockets.

Whose better? Obviously this is an extreme example - but it just shows how illogical it is to not consider overall offense, vs just goals and rockets. If you want to give goals more importance then assists and still get to a place where Ovechkin > Crosby - go for it. But there's a very strong case to be made that Crosby is the superior offensive player in the regular season than Ovechkin despite only leading the league in goals twice and assists once.

 

[TJHKY]

 

[TJHKY]

No more Crosby talk please!

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer ever and arguably the best LW ever (the memory of Bobby Hull is beginning to fade, so Ovechkin as the best LW ever will get more and more traction)
This is something that is hard to match; just like Jagr's 4 Art Rosses in a row, the more time passes and no one comes close, the greater the respect for Ovechkin is going to be
Ovechkin also has a very high, clearly pronounced peak of three consecutive seasons. I am not sure, for example, McDavid has three consecutive seasons to match Ovechkin's 2007-2010. And again, the longer passes before anyone matches Ovechkin peak, the more impressive it is going to be.

On the other hand, the blemishes in Ovechkin's resume will look more and more petty. For the future generations of fans, Ovechkin will be a Conn Smythe winner, who won the first Cup for his franchise and led his era in PO goals. They will be much less receptive to stories of Caps PO struggles, just like no one holds early-career PO struggles of Yzerman and Datsyuk against them. Likewise, all the silly complaints about Ovechkin's down seasons will end, just like no one remembers any longer Hull's and Howe's under-ppg seasons, and even the memories of Jagr's Washington stint are beginning to fade.

Crosby's legend has very little growth potential, since he is not close to being the best ever in anything. There is nothing in his career for the next generations to look at and be amazed. Three Lindsays? McDavid has matched that already. Two Art Rosses? Duh. Three Cups in the salary-cap era? Toews and Kane also have three, Kucherov and Stamkos and Vasi may well join them. Crosby is likely to be overshadowed by McDavid; more prolific scorers will likely come.
In a sense, Crosby's legend is already beginning to fade - as much as Crosby was pumped to be 1B to Ovechkin's 1A in 2007-2010, no one is buying that any longer. Back in 2007-2010, many folks drank the media cool-aid and bought in "the rivalry" NHL was trying to sell. Now pretty much everyone realizes that in 2007-2010 Ovechkin was just better.

You seem to have a very warped view on how people are remembered. First of all, Yzerman shed his playoff struggle reputation which is still remembered well and is attached to his legacy. He did it by winning 3 cups in 5 years on the most dominant team we have seen in history. Comparing that to OV getting past the 2nd round once after his team got better is a bad comparison. Part of Yzerman’s legacy is his ability to work on and change his game to be more effective in the playoffs.

Secondly, Jagrs ‘dying alive’ in Washington moment might be just as memorable as his 4 consecutive art Ross trophies. If he didn’t have that Washington stint he likely is regarded a lot higher in most peoples books. It’s silly to act like that is fading in fans memories when it’s likely the only thing keeping the #2 points leader outside of conversations about a ‘big 5’

OVs playoff shortcomings and being bested by Crosby in their prime will always be attached to his legacy, people don’t forget, and it will always come up.

 

[Midnight Judges]

OVs playoff shortcomings and being bested by Crosby in their prime will always be attached to his legacy, people don’t forget, and it will always come up.

It's going to be hard for Crosby fans to sustain these lies.

Head to head in the playoffs, Ovechkin outscored and outplayed Crosby. The difference is, Crosby had Malkin.

 

[bobholly39]

Thats cool but there's almost no chance that happens.

Id like to see him hit 100 points it would be great - but I fully expect McDavid and Drai to surpass 120 and maybe more. No way Ovechkin manages to keep up.

Goals? Sure - good chance he could win the rocket, though there's also tough competition there.

 

[bobholly39]

It's going to be hard for Crosby fans to sustain these lies.

Head to head in the playoffs, Ovechkin outscored and outplayed Crosby. The difference is, Crosby had Malkin.

Head to head? Lol. Want me to dig up a 4th liner's regular season stats who are better against Ovechkin, and suggest that means he has a better overall regular season resume than he does?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Pointing out that OV's nine Rocket seasons (and 09/10) are objectively weaker than Crosby's ten best seasons is not a "petty" criticism.

Serious hockey people will never get caught up in the superficial "Trophy" count.

Look daver, I already defended Crobsy and said he was a legend. I think everybody knows that when healthy, Crosby was better than Ovechkin for the vast majority of their career. Where that one gets tricky is how seldom Crosby was healthy.

What's "petty" is determining Ovechkin's status as an all time type of legend as well, not necessarily who you feel like taking in an Ovechkin vs. Crosby debate. I've given my perspective of how it will likely be viewed but have also acknowledged how they end their careers will matter as well.

Who are the "serious" hockey people you are referring to when you say trophy counting doesn't matter?

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

No more Crosby talk please!

Agreed. It is off topic.

There is a Crosby 500 goal watch thread for that. People can talk about him there or the Ovie matching Peak Crosby one.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

No more Crosby talk please!

Good luck finding an Ovechkin thread without Crosby arguments or vice versa.

And if you notice, it's almost always the same handful of posters arguing over the same topics they've argued for year after year. I can't believe they're not sick of it yet. We have two of the best hockey players of all time, and people just can't appreciate them.

 

[Randyne]

Pointing out that OV's nine Rocket seasons (and 09/10) are objectively weaker than Crosby's ten best seasons is not a "petty" criticism.

Imaginary adding non existing points to Sid doesn't call objectively.

 

[Sentinel]

You seem to have a very warped view on how people are remembered. First of all, Yzerman shed his playoff struggle reputation which is still remembered well and is attached to his legacy. He did it by winning 3 cups in 5 years on the most dominant team we have seen in history. Comparing that to OV getting past the 2nd round once after his team got better is a bad comparison. Part of Yzerman’s legacy is his ability to work on and change his game to be more effective in the playoffs.

Secondly, Jagrs ‘dying alive’ in Washington moment might be just as memorable as his 4 consecutive art Ross trophies. If he didn’t have that Washington stint he likely is regarded a lot higher in most peoples books. It’s silly to act like that is fading in fans memories when it’s likely the only thing keeping the #2 points leader outside of conversations about a ‘big 5’

OVs playoff shortcomings and being bested by Crosby in their prime will always be attached to his legacy, people don’t forget, and it will always come up.

Actually, his perception of people's perceptions is closer to reality than yours. No, as a rule of thumb, people DON'T care about Yzerman's early playoff failures or Jagr's Washington stint.

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah but the NHL has always measured offense by points - not goals or assists, but a combination of the 2.

Ovechkin won more rockets, great.

Player A scores 100 points 10 seasons in a row. Mix of goals and assists.
Player B scores 55 goals 10 seasons in a row, but 0 assists. So - a 55 point player, but happens to win 10 rockets.

Whose better? Obviously this is an extreme example - but it just shows how illogical it is to not consider overall offense, vs just goals and rockets. If you want to give goals more importance then assists and still get to a place where Ovechkin > Crosby - go for it. But there's a very strong case to be made that Crosby is the superior offensive player in the regular season than Ovechkin despite only leading the league in goals twice and assists once.

There are a lot more 50 assist players than 50 goal players. Care to guess why?

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is the first time I've seen someone bring up Jagr's Washington tenure in about 8 years. Nobody cares.

 

[daver]

There are a lot more 50 assist players than 50 goal players. Care to guess why?

Crosby was viewed as better than Ovechkin in multiple seasons when OV won the Rocket. Care to guess why?

 

[bobholly39]

There are a lot more 50 assist players than 50 goal players. Care to guess why?

How does that address anything I said? You were criticizing Crosby for not leading the league in goals and assists more often. I'm saying - he doesn't need to do either to be able to have better overall offense - since primary way of judging offense is points.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Actually, his perception of people's perceptions is closer to reality than yours. No, as a rule of thumb, people DON'T care about Yzerman's early playoff failures or Jagr's Washington stint.

Actually, I have seen Yzerman brought up countless times for players like McDavid who were amazing talents that underperformed in the playoffs but will ‘figure it out’

Jagr’s Washington years + leaving for Europe gets brought up all the time as the reason he falls short of players like Crosby and OV. Like, literally every thread.

People don’t forget. In 10 years when someone makes a thread ‘Was Jagr better than Crosby/OV’ and bring up the fact he won more art rosses than both of them combined, along with being 2nd all time in points, posters will bring up Washington + leaving for Europe as what hurt his legacy. Just watch.

People aren’t going to forget why OV didn’t retire as the de facto number 5 player, and when it gets brought up years from now people will bring up all the points we spent 15 years hashing out in these threads. Memories aren’t fading away and warping into OV is the 5th best player ever and now that I’m 30 years older I remember his legacy differently. That’s not how that works.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Imaginary adding non existing points to Sid doesn't call objectively.

No, but revisiting the level in which they played during those seasons makes it pretty clear. OV finishing outside the top 20 in points after a full season doesn’t make him better than Crosby because Crosby missed time.

 

[Randyne]

Player A scores 100 points 10 seasons in a row. Mix of goals and assists.
Player B scores 55 goals 10 seasons in a row, but 0 assists. So - a 55 point player, but happens to win 10 rockets.
Whose better? Obviously this is an extreme example - but it just shows how illogical it is to not consider overall offense, vs just goals and rockets. If you want to give goals more importance then assists and still get to a place where Ovechkin > Crosby - go for it. But there's a very strong case to be made that Crosby is the superior offensive player in the regular season than Ovechkin despite only leading the league in goals twice and assists once.

It's not an extreme it's a BS example.
Sid goals-assists proportion is 37-63%, Ovechkin's is 55-45%. Ovi is more balanced.
Why you deleting 45% instead of 37% if you wanted to annihilate something?
Make it even.
55G/0A vs 0G/55A
100% choose 55G player

 

[Dessloch]

Jagr’s Washington years + leaving for Europe gets brought up all the time as the reason he falls short of players like Crosby and OV. Like, literally every thread.

People don’t forget. In 10 years when someone makes a thread ‘Was Jagr better than Crosby/OV’ and bring up the fact he won more art rosses than both of them combined, along with being 2nd all time in points, posters will bring up Washington + leaving for Europe as what hurt his legacy. Just watch.

People aren’t going to forget why OV didn’t retire as the de facto number 5 player, and when it gets brought up years from now people will bring up all the points we spent 15 years hashing out in these threads. Memories aren’t fading away and warping into OV is the 5th best player ever and now that I’m 30 years older I remember his legacy differently. That’s not how that works.

There is no reason to argue about a imaginary reason for why Jaromir Jagr would fall short of Crosby and Ovechkin - cause Jagr clearly is a tier above both of them. For sure Jagr would have 800+ goals and 2100 points had he not left for Russia, so his lead over Sid and Ovie would have been bigger.

1. Jagr
2. Crosby
3. Ovechkin

Crosby might have done Jagr in by the end of his caeer if he did not miss so many games in his absolute prime, anyway Sid has Ovie beaten clearly regardless.
---
The only people remembering and holding Jagrs Washington tenure against his legacy is salty Caps fans. They´ve saw Jagr crush the Capitals year after year, and then also feel like Jagr crushed them when he was a Capital as well, thats unparalled stuff! Their dislike for Jagr is double or triple a Caps fans dislike for Crosby or Pens fans dislike for Ovie.

You can see that by Caps fans calling Jagrs time in DC as a complete disaster while Jagr scored a higher PPG as a Capital on a bad Caps team than Ovie did between 2014 and 2017. Jagr was entering a new system and team for the first time in his adult life! While Ovechkin was settled and at home with zero excuses. I guess Ovie had 3 years that were a complete disaster as well?

 

[YippieKaey]

Can we stop talking about Crosby and start talking about Ovi milestones?

He has what, 6 goals to become the third greatest goalscorer in raw numbers? Then about 35 more to pass Howe, making him the second greatest and one of three players with 800+ goals. He´s also doing this in an era where goalscoring is not at a premium. Personally, i would actually argue that goalscoring was harder for parts of Howe´s career than it was during Gretzkys career. Not sure if that is backed up by numbers though.

Anyways, it´s pretty cool to see someone presenting a realistic challenge to records people thought were unbreakable. I wonder if some will ever catch up to Gretzkys point totals. All time or in a season. That one seems hard but who knows, if Ovi can break the goal record someone with a broader offensive repertoire coming into the league at the right time just might.

 

[bobholly39]

It's not an extreme it's a BS example.
Sid goals-assists proportion is 37-63%, Ovechkin's is 55-45%. Ovi is more balanced.
Why you deleting 45% instead of 37% if you wanted to annihilate something?
Make it even.
55G/0A vs 0G/55A
100% choose 55G player

I'm not annihilating's anything lol. No one ever says "goals suck, assists are more important". It's the opposite that's always said. So i'm purposefully painting an extreme example to show that goals are cool and all, but overall offense (ie points) is what is king.

In your example - 55 goals over 55 assists
In my example - 100 points over 55 goals.

What about Player A 35 goals 100 points Player B 50 goals 80 points? That's probably closer to Crosby/Ovechkin in some years.

I don't even care if you want to say you prefer player B to player A. I don't, and I think majority wouldn't as they look at overall points. But my argument is - player A can never lead the league in goals and assists and still always be better than player B for offense.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Head to head? Lol. Want me to dig up a 4th liner's regular season stats who are better against Ovechkin, and suggest that means he has a better overall regular season resume than he does?

Yes, please do. Provided it is a reasonable sample size, this would actually be very interesting.

 

[Randyne]

I'm not annihilating's anything lol. No one ever says "goals suck, assists are more important". It's the opposite that's always said. So i'm purposefully painting an extreme example to show that goals are cool and all, but overall offense (ie points) is what is king.
In your example - 55 goals over 55 assists
In my example - 100 points over 55 goals.
What about Player A 35 goals 100 points Player B 50 goals 80 points? That's probably closer to Crosby/Ovechkin in some years.
I don't even care if you want to say you prefer player B to player A. I don't, and I think majority wouldn't as they look at overall points. But my argument is - player A can never lead the league in goals and assists and still always be better than player B for offense.

You annihilated 45% of Ovechkin's totals and kept Sid totals, and then asking who is better.
Statistically Ovechkin's career 82 games averages is 50 G; 41A; 91 P. Considering goalscorers are banned from having many secondaries on the same play and absolutely dominating hardware Ovechkin's resume is better.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Head to head? Lol. Want me to dig up a 4th liner's regular season stats who are better against Ovechkin, and suggest that means he has a better overall regular season resume than he does?

I thought that was what I was responding to when the guy said "being bested by Crosby" when really it was Crosby's team besting Ovie's team.

If it's not, then wow he's even more off base because Ovie has the better collection of individual accolades, clearly the higher peak (3 seasons better than Crosby's best), more points in the same number of seasons, and 50% more goals.