Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[Sentinel]

Actually, I have seen Yzerman brought up countless times for players like McDavid who were amazing talents that underperformed in the playoffs but will ‘figure it out’

Jagr’s Washington years + leaving for Europe gets brought up all the time as the reason he falls short of players like Crosby and OV. Like, literally every thread.

People don’t forget. In 10 years when someone makes a thread ‘Was Jagr better than Crosby/OV’ and bring up the fact he won more art rosses than both of them combined, along with being 2nd all time in points, posters will bring up Washington + leaving for Europe as what hurt his legacy. Just watch.

People aren’t going to forget why OV didn’t retire as the de facto number 5 player, and when it gets brought up years from now people will bring up all the points we spent 15 years hashing out in these threads. Memories aren’t fading away and warping into OV is the 5th best player ever and now that I’m 30 years older I remember his legacy differently. That’s not how that works.

It gets brought up when people are desperate for arguments and routinely gets ignored. I am yet to see this line of reasoning convince ANYONE.

Nobody cares.

 

[Sentinel]

How does that address anything I said? You were criticizing Crosby for not leading the league in goals and assists more often. I'm saying - he doesn't need to do either to be able to have better overall offense - since primary way of judging offense is points.

Crosby is unquestionably a great player, one of the best ever. But not being the best at anything -- just perfectly well-rounded -- will not age well.

 

[Sentinel]

Crosby was viewed as better than Ovechkin in multiple seasons when OV won the Rocket. Care to guess why?

Surely, you know what "whataboutism" is.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

This site loves compilers, it’s ridiculous. People acting like 800+ games where a player outperformed another isn’t a big enough size to declare that player better, because the player they are being compared to has 1200+ games and more points. Unless of course we are talking about Mario, then he gets a free pass. Don’t stop there y’all, let’s put OV > Mario once he officially passes him in hardware, and have a big 5 with Jagr and OV and have Mario on the outside looking in.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I thought that was what I was responding to when the guy said "being bested by Crosby" when really it was Crosby's team besting Ovie's team.

If it's not, then wow he's even more off base because Ovie has the better collection of individual accolades, clearly the higher peak (3 seasons better than Crosby's best), more points in the same number of seasons, and 50% more goals.

Why does this keep getting thrown around blindly? The only season that OV has that’s clearly better than Crosby’s 2014 season where he beat out #2 in the art Ross by 20% margin is his 65 goal season.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Crosby is unquestionably a great player, one of the best ever. But not being the best at anything -- just perfectly well-rounded -- will not age well.

How about being the best player of his generation and finishing top 5 all time in points? Any chance that ages well?

 

[WarriorofTime]

This site loves compilers, it’s ridiculous. People acting like 800+ games where a player outperformed another isn’t a big enough size to declare that player better, because the player they are being compared to has 1200+ games and more points. Unless of course we are talking about Mario, then he gets a free pass. Don’t stop there y’all, let’s put OV > Mario once he officially passes him in hardware, and have a big 5 with Jagr and OV and have Mario on the outside looking in.

We are talking about 2 players that came into the League at the same time. Not a case where one retired after 12 seasons and another played for 25 seasons.

 

[WarriorofTime]

How about being the best player of his generation and finishing top 5 all time in points? Any chance that ages well?

"best player of his generation" - well that's the discussion.

"finishing top 5 all time in points" - yes, if he reaches 1,800 points that will certainly help his all time standing. I'm sure he'll get a lot of pub when he passes Mario Lemieux for most in Penguins history

 

[Sentinel]

How about being the best player of his generation and finishing top 5 all time in points? Any chance that ages well?

Lafleur was the best player of his generation. He hardly ever makes it to anybody's Top 10. And Crosby being "the best player of his generation" is certainly open to debate.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Lafleur was the best player of his generation. He hardly ever makes it to anybody's Top 10. And Crosby being "the best player of his generation" is certainly open to debate.

I mean, not really? His ‘generation’ overlaps with Orr, Gretzky, Potvin, Clarke, Esposito. Despite that, I have never seen him ranked outside the top 20.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

We are talking about 2 players that came into the League at the same time. Not a case where one retired after 12 seasons and another played for 25 seasons.

I mean, that’s my whole point? I’m not sure why Mario is stapled next to Wayne in all time ranks but people in this thread think Crosby won’t be in the same boat with OV.

 

[Dessloch]

How about being the best player of his generation and finishing top 5 all time in points? Any chance that ages well?

Finishing 6th in all time playoff scoring after 4 Edmonton Oilers dynasty legends + Jaromir Jagr will not hurt either. Nor having 17+ straight PPG seasons with only Gretzky having more with 19 = being the most consistent point producer after Gretzky spanning almost 20 seasons.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Thread was successfully derailed by Crosby/Pens fanboys. We should be talking about how he’s going to pass Jagr by the end of February.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Thread was successfully derailed by Crosby/Pens fanboys. We should be talking about how he’s going to pass Jagr by the end of February.

Yeah, people weren’t being baited into defending Crosby due to all the OV hyperbole in this thread directly bringing up Crosby’s name.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, people weren’t being baited into defending Crosby due to all the OV hyperbole in this thread directly bringing up Crosby’s name.

Nobody baited you. One person made an off-handed "big 5" comment and you got worked up about Crobsy and Lemieux's honor being besmirched.

 

[Beljavskij]

Nobody baited you. One person made an off-handed "big 5" comment and you got worked up about Crobsy and Lemieux's honor being besmirched.

Honestly, the whole reason why I started posting on hfboards is because of a few (very loud) individuals seem to have made it their mission to trash Crosby in any way possible to pump up Ovi's greatness. They will both be all-time greats so I don't see any reason to bash another players career. I see this happening a lot more in the Ovi-threads to Crosby than I see in the Crosby-threads to Ovi.

 

[Randyne]

Honestly, the whole reason why I started posting on hfboards is because of a few (very loud) individuals seem to have made it their mission to trash Crosby in any way possible to pump up Ovi's greatness. They will both be all-time greats so I don't see any reason to bash another players career. I see this happening a lot more in the Ovi-threads to Crosby than I see in the Crosby-threads to Ovi.

It's otherwise. Ovechkin has much more individual achievements and Sidfans try to diminish them.

 

[filinski77]

Why does this keep getting thrown around blindly? The only season that OV has that’s clearly better than Crosby’s 2014 season where he beat out #2 in the art Ross by 20% margin is his 65 goal season.

Poll done like a year ago (with a pretty large voting turnout) where Ovechkin was voted with 3 of the 5 best seasons post-lockout (all were ahead of any Crosby season). It’s commonly accepted by many that Ovechkin peaked higher.

I just think there’s way too many extremists on either side. I personally have Ovechkin higher all-time, but Crosby is no more than 1-3 spots behind him at worst in my opinion. There are many good points to argue either or as being better all-time:

Ovechkin
-> Higher peak
-> Greatest goal-scorer of all time
-> Better individual trophy case
-> Still more points despite being goal heavy (which is still statistically harder than being assist-heavy)

Crosby
-> Better overall player over the whole course of their careers
-> Better team based trophy case
-> Best playoff performer of his generation
-> One of the best point/gp finishes and hart trophy finish resumes all-time

I don’t see much as far as Ovechkin fans saying Crosby isn’t top-10 all time, but it’s very common to see Crosby fans say Ovi is in that 10-20 range, while having Crosby at #5. My personal opinion is that there’s great arguments for both, and that at worst they’re 1-3 spots away from each other in an all-time ranking. The difference would come from how much you weigh and value the different arguments for each player.

 

[Beljavskij]

I don’t see much as far as Ovechkin fans saying Crosby isn’t top-10 all time, but it’s very common to see Crosby fans say Ovi is in that 10-20 range, while having Crosby at #5. My personal opinion is that there’s great arguments for both, and that at worst they’re 1-3 spots away from each other in an all-time ranking. The difference would come from how much you weigh and value the different arguments for each player.

Well spoken. However, I'm always curious as to where @Zuluss and @Midnight Judges have Crosby on their all-time ranking?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Honestly, the whole reason why I started posting on hfboards is because of a few (very loud) individuals seem to have made it their mission to trash Crosby in any way possible to pump up Ovi's greatness. They will both be all-time greats so I don't see any reason to bash another players career. I see this happening a lot more in the Ovi-threads to Crosby than I see in the Crosby-threads to Ovi.

Clearly you weren’t here around 2016-17. It’s been going back and forth for the past 15 years.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Clearly you weren’t here around 2016-17. It’s been going back and forth for the past 15 years.

The actual discussions happened from 2006-10 and now 2022. From 2011-2019 it was not worth a discussion

 

[Zuluss]

Well spoken. However, I'm always curious as to where @Zuluss and @Midnight Judges have Crosby on their all-time ranking?

I thought I have answered this question from you a few days ago - and indeed I did
Is Ovechkin passing Crosby?

The actual discussions happened from 2006-10 and now 2022. From 2011-2019 it was not worth a discussion

It was not worth a discussion in 2006-2010, because Ovechkin was clearly better, but quite a few folks drank the media cool-aid about "the rivalry" and kept the discussion going.
By 2012, it settled in into "Ovechkin has had a better career, but Crosby is a better player" - primarily based on the expectation that Crosby will finally get healthy and deliver several seasons that will be better than Ovechkin's best.
Which did not happen, but somehow a lot of people learned to pretend that it did - after all, a collection of paper-thin margins over #5 in points are so much better than Harts and legendary seasons
I guess it is time now to settle back in into "Ovechkin has had a better career, but... but.." - well, Ovechkin did have a 65-point season back 10 years ago, that must be the most important thing

 

[Doc McKenna]

Lemieux missed 22 games with cancer.

The other games he missed were primarily due to a bad back, and many were simply due to him being a quitter. Clearly, durability was a huge weakness for Lemieux.

Quitting is an obvious weakness. Poor leadership was also a huge weakness for Lemieux - one that Jagr inherited. You realize that the Pens traded away a hall of fame defenseman at the beginning of his prime (Zubov) for a washed-up player in return, all because Mario was pissed that Zubov didn't pass him the puck enough on the power play, right?

Wow ignorant take. Gretz saw almost zero hits in his entire career while mario was fighting and carrying 2 guys on his back during the clutch and grab era. You might want to check your facts a bit. Mario deserves to be in the same conversation as wayne and is the better goal scorer, and still a top 5 playmaker all time.

Quitter. Punk answer dude.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I thought I have answered this question from you a few days ago - and indeed I did
Is Ovechkin passing Crosby?

Ovechkin is at 1.32 ppg. Not exactly out of this world lol. Compared to his past seasons of under ppg I can see why your excited though

It was not worth a discussion in 2006-2010, because Ovechkin was clearly better, but quite a few folks drank the media cool-aid about "the rivalry" and kept the discussion going.
By 2012, it settled in into "Ovechkin has had a better career, but Crosby is a better player" - primarily based on the expectation that Crosby will finally get healthy and deliver several seasons that will be better than Ovechkin's best.
Which did not happen, but somehow a lot of people learned to pretend that it did - after all, a collection of paper-thin margins over #5 in points are so much better than Harts and legendary seasons
I guess it is time now to settle back in into "Ovechkin has had a better career, but... but.." - well, Ovechkin did have a 65-point season back 10 years ago, that must be the most important thing

 

[Dessloch]

To get this back to topic, Ovie is closing in on several empty net milestones, he already tied his personal season best for empty net goals in ONLY!!!! 40 games with 6, which is also recording breaking pace. He is still well on pace to break the single season empty net record which Pavel Bure holds with 9 goals from 1999-2000. Ovie also at one point had a record breaking 25% of his goal total were empty netters.

Non empty net goals & goals per games without empty nets lists below:

From the lists below we can see that Ovie this season is without a doubt the leagues finest empty goal scorer, however while being in the 10-20th rank when it comes to scoring with a goaltender in net, goals per game. (as many teams have played up to 6 games less than WSH at the moment) Before Ovies 2 quick goals against Matt Murray Ovie was just scraping in the top 20)

Non-empty net goals:

1. Kreider 29 goals - GP 43
2. Draisaitl 26 goals - GP 38
3. Matthews 25 goals - GP 36
4. DeBrincat 24 goals - GP 43
5. Ovechkin 23 goals - GP 44
6. Forsberg 21 goals - GP 31
7. Rantanen 21 goals - GP 38
8. Terry 21 goals - GP 40
9. Connor 20 goals - GP 39
10. Larkin 20 goals - GP 38
11. Pastrnak 20 goals - GP 40
12. Bertuzzi 19 goals - GP 35
13. Marchand 19 goals - GP 35
14. Guentzel 19 goals - GP 36
15. Meier 19 goals - 38 GP
16. Tkachuk 19 goals - 38 GP
17. Duchene 19 goals - 40 GP
18. Stamkos 19 goals - GP 42
19. Hertl 19 goals - GP 43
20. Aho 18 goals - GP 36

*Mcdavid 16 goals - GP 37


Goals per game - Top 20:

1. Matthews 0.69
2. Draisaitl 0.68
3. Kreider 0.67
4. Forsberg 0.67
5. DeBrincat 0.55
6. Rantanen 0.55
7. Bertuzzi 0.54
8. Marchand 0.54
9. Guentzel 0.527
10. Terry 0.526
11. Larkin 0.526
12. Ovechkin 0.522
13. Connor 0.51
14. Aho 0.5
15. Meier 0.5
16. Tkachuk 0.5
17. Pastrnak 0,5
18. Duchene 0.47
19. Pavelski 0.45
20. Stamkos 0.45

*Mcdavid 0.43

Empty net goals leaders - Top 10

1. Ovechkin - 6 goals
2.McDavid - 4 goals
3. Svechnikov - 4 goals
4. Landeskog - 3 goals
5. Josh Anderson - 3 goals
6. Duclair - 3 goals
7. Draisaitl - 3 goals
8. Connor - 3 goals
9. Texier - 3 goals
10. 15 players tied - 2 goals