Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

[MacMacandBarbie]

I thought I have answered this question from you a few days ago - and indeed I did
Is Ovechkin passing Crosby?



It was not worth a discussion in 2006-2010, because Ovechkin was clearly better

Not really. By 2009, Crosby had closed the small regular season gap between the two with his incredible back to back playoff performances. Everyone agrees he was much better in 06-07 and OV was much better in 07-08.

It doesn’t help that he took home a gold medal at the beginning of 2010. The discussions were really good and back and forth at that time.

By 2014, after 4 years where Crosby clearly looked better, discussions died out.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer ever and arguably the best LW ever (the memory of Bobby Hull is beginning to fade, so Ovechkin as the best LW ever will get more and more traction)
This is something that is hard to match; just like Jagr's 4 Art Rosses in a row, the more time passes and no one comes close, the greater the respect for Ovechkin is going to be
Ovechkin also has a very high, clearly pronounced peak of three consecutive seasons. I am not sure, for example, McDavid has three consecutive seasons to match Ovechkin's 2007-2010. And again, the longer passes before anyone matches Ovechkin peak, the more impressive it is going to be.

On the other hand, the blemishes in Ovechkin's resume will look more and more petty. For the future generations of fans, Ovechkin will be a Conn Smythe winner, who won the first Cup for his franchise and led his era in PO goals. They will be much less receptive to stories of Caps PO struggles, just like no one holds early-career PO struggles of Yzerman and Datsyuk against them. Likewise, all the silly complaints about Ovechkin's down seasons will end, just like no one remembers any longer Hull's and Howe's under-ppg seasons, and even the memories of Jagr's Washington stint are beginning to fade.

Crosby's legend has very little growth potential, since he is not close to being the best ever in anything. There is nothing in his career for the next generations to look at and be amazed. Three Lindsays? McDavid has matched that already. Two Art Rosses? Duh. Three Cups in the salary-cap era? Toews and Kane also have three, Kucherov and Stamkos and Vasi may well join them. Crosby is likely to be overshadowed by McDavid; more prolific scorers will likely come.
In a sense, Crosby's legend is already beginning to fade - as much as Crosby was pumped to be 1B to Ovechkin's 1A in 2007-2010, no one is buying that any longer. Back in 2007-2010, many folks drank the media cool-aid and bought in "the rivalry" NHL was trying to sell. Now pretty much everyone realizes that in 2007-2010 Ovechkin was just better.

Agreed with this (my like isn't working atm). Ovi is literally all the talk in the last couple of years. If he does 50 this year he gets nine 50 goal seasons tying gretz and bossy, while doing it at 36 years old. And he should have done it 2 years ago with 10 games left before covid. Does ovehckin break waynes record, maybe maybe not, but put a bunch of asterix next to lockout and covid seasons, because he would break it easily at that point. Maybe even by now.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Crosby was viewed as better than Ovechkin in multiple seasons when OV won the Rocket. Care to guess why?

Because he is canadian? Maybe Don Cherry's disdain leaking into the general public? I literally use to hear, yeah well grapes is never wrong. Is that how we determine who is good? Because someone doesn't like on ice celebrations and prefers someone bland and boring. What a dumb way of making an opinion.

OVI greatest goal scorer ever. Nice to be able to watch him play. I don't even care about the era argument and if he dies tomorrow it doesn't change this fact. Lindros is in the HHOF and if you actually look at his achievements they are a little overblown, injury or not. YET people at the time some said he was better than anyone but wayne and mario and this includes Cherry.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

To get this back to topic, Ovie is closing in on several empty net milestones, he already tied his personal season best for empty net goals in ONLY!!!! 40 games with 6, which is also recording breaking pace. He is still well on pace to break the single season empty net record which Pavel Bure holds with 9 goals from 1999-2000. Ovie also at one point had a record breaking 25% of his goal total were empty netters.

Non empty net goals & goals per games without empty nets lists below:

From the lists below we can see that Ovie this season is without a doubt the leagues finest empty goal scorer, however while being in the 10-20th rank when it comes to scoring with a goaltender in net, goals per game. (as many teams have played up to 6 games less than WSH at the moment) Before Ovies 2 quick goals against Matt Murray Ovie was just scraping in the top 20)

Non-empty net goals:

1. Kreider 29 goals - GP 43
2. Draisaitl 26 goals - GP 38
3. Matthews 25 goals - GP 36
4. DeBrincat 24 goals - GP 43
5. Ovechkin 23 goals - GP 44
6. Forsberg 21 goals - GP 31
7. Rantanen 21 goals - GP 38
8. Terry 21 goals - GP 40
9. Connor 20 goals - GP 39
10. Larkin 20 goals - GP 38
11. Pastrnak 20 goals - GP 40
12. Bertuzzi 19 goals - GP 35
13. Marchand 19 goals - GP 35
14. Guentzel 19 goals - GP 36
15. Meier 19 goals - 38 GP
16. Tkachuk 19 goals - 38 GP
17. Duchene 19 goals - 40 GP
18. Stamkos 19 goals - GP 42
19. Hertl 19 goals - GP 43
20. Aho 18 goals - GP 36

*Mcdavid 16 goals - GP 37


Goals per game - Top 20:

1. Matthews 0.69
2. Draisaitl 0.68
3. Kreider 0.67
4. Forsberg 0.67
5. DeBrincat 0.55
6. Rantanen 0.55
7. Bertuzzi 0.54
8. Marchand 0.54
9. Guentzel 0.527
10. Terry 0.526
11. Larkin 0.526
12. Ovechkin 0.522
13. Connor 0.51
14. Aho 0.5
15. Meier 0.5
16. Tkachuk 0.5
17. Pastrnak 0,5
18. Duchene 0.47
19. Pavelski 0.45
20. Stamkos 0.45

*Mcdavid 0.43

Empty net goals leaders - Top 10

1. Ovechkin - 6 goals
2.McDavid - 4 goals
3. Svechnikov - 4 goals
4. Landeskog - 3 goals
5. Josh Anderson - 3 goals
6. Duclair - 3 goals
7. Draisaitl - 3 goals
8. Connor - 3 goals
9. Texier - 3 goals
10. 15 players tied - 2 goals

Nice backhanded compliment. Yes, Ovie is good at scoring empty net goals.

At least it's somewhat on topic and not this Crosby/Lemieux/Jagr garbage that has been polluting this thread. So for that, I thank you.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Well spoken. However, I'm always curious as to where @Zuluss and @Midnight Judges have Crosby on their all-time ranking?

Today, I'd probably have Crosby 6th all time, right after Ovie.

If you want to accuse someone of trashing a player, go over to the nutty little history forum where they ranked Ovechkin 22nd. It's really just the same crap as when the Canadian hockey brain trust claimed Malkin was not top 100.

Take it up with the "well-respected" guy who maintains that Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovie.

Or the guy who claimed Crosby could have scored just as many goals as Ovie if he wanted to.

Or the guy who ranked Ovie 59th - after like 8 players from the 1957 Canadiens.

Or any of the other homers who claim Ovie is a "shoot-only" player despite leading his generation in points, being top 10 in assists, and top 4 in hits.

Or any number of other lies told about Ovechkin.

You simply cannot match the lies and slanders thrown at Ovechkin, with how Crosby is treated. Not even close.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Nice backhanded compliment. Yes, Ovie is good at scoring empty net goals.

Except Crosby has basically the same empty net points, and that dude knows it.

 

[Sentinel]

I mean, not really? His ‘generation’ overlaps with Orr, Gretzky, Potvin, Clarke, Esposito. Despite that, I have never seen him ranked outside the top 20.

His peak / prime lies squarely outside of all the people you listed, except Potvin (a defenseman). After Orr, Clarke, and Espo, but before Gretzky. The only competition he had was Trottier and, possibly, Dionne.

Of course Lafleur is not ranked outside of top 20! And rest assured: neither will Crosby. If you're happy with him being in the 10s, we're in complete agreement.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

His peak / prime lies squarely outside of all the people you listed, except Potvin (a defenseman). After Orr, Clarke, and Espo, but before Gretzky. The only competition he had was Trottier and, possibly, Dionne.

Of course Lafleur is not ranked outside of top 20! And rest assured: neither will Crosby. If you're happy with him being in the 10s, we're in complete agreement.

Only because it’s so short, he has 6 seasons where he was either the best in the NHL or close to it. Outside of those, it’s pretty underwhelming compared to the other greats. Jagr, OV, Crosby all have the same peak but also have 10+ seasons where they were talked about as being the very best player in the league. That’s why I have them all in the top 10 and Lafleur in the 15-20 range.

 

[daver]

Because he is canadian? Maybe Don Cherry's disdain leaking into the general public? I literally use to hear, yeah well grapes is never wrong. Is that how we determine who is good? Because someone doesn't like on ice celebrations and prefers someone bland and boring. What a dumb way of making an opinion.

OVI greatest goal scorer ever. Nice to be able to watch him play. I don't even care about the era argument and if he dies tomorrow it doesn't change this fact. Lindros is in the HHOF and if you actually look at his achievements they are a little overblown, injury or not. YET people at the time some said he was better than anyone but wayne and mario and this includes Cherry.

No, because he got better Hart and/or Lindsay recognition in seasons when Ovechkin won the Richard.

 

[Zuluss]

No, because he got better Hart and/or Lindsay recognition in seasons when Ovechkin won the Richard.

Ovechkin wins the Rocket and finishes ahead of Crosby in Hart voting: 2007/08, 2008/09, 2012/13, 2014/15, 2017/18, 2019/20
Ovechkin wins the Rocket, but Crosby finishes ahead in Hart voting: 2013/14, 2015/16, 2018/19
6-3 in Ovechkin's favor

It is almost as if winning the Rocket matters

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Why do they always have to bring Crosby into an Ovechkin discussion?

Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer and left wing in the history of hockey.

Crosby? Well, forgive me for having an unpopular opinion: in the last 30 years I've seen several centres who were better than Crosby in their prime:
- Gretzky
- Lemieux
- Forsberg
- Fedorov
- Sakic
- even Malkin (when he's in a mood)
* and probably, McDavid too in near future

 

[shtorm2005]

 

[wetcoast]

Why do they always have to bring Crosby into an Ovechkin discussion?

Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer and left wing in the history of hockey.

Crosby? Well, forgive me for having an unpopular opinion: in the last 30 years I've seen several centres who were better than Crosby in their prime:
- Gretzky
- Lemieux
- Forsberg
- Fedorov
- Sakic
- even Malkin (when he's in a mood)
* and probably, McDavid too in near future

I'm really curious on what criteria you are using for "prime" here?

Most people use best 7 consecutive years as prime. or something around that.

Peak Ovechkin is quite good but his prime argument makes it a bit muddled against other wingers like Jagr, Lafleur, Bobby Hull and maybe Mike Bossy.

I do agree with you that Ovechkin is the best goal scorer in hockey history and have thought that since 2019 but the milestone is really being over rated by some in this thread, if he reaches it.

 

[authentic]

Agreed with this (my like isn't working atm). Ovi is literally all the talk in the last couple of years. If he does 50 this year he gets nine 50 goal seasons tying gretz and bossy, while doing it at 36 years old. And he should have done it 2 years ago with 10 games left before covid. Does ovehckin break waynes record, maybe maybe not, but put a bunch of asterix next to lockout and covid seasons, because he would break it easily at that point. Maybe even by now.

He’s already led the league in goals more than Bossy and Gretzky combined so the 50 goal seasons are pretty irrelevant when ranking them.

 

[Doc McKenna]

He’s already led the league in goals more than Bossy and Gretzky combined so the 50 goal seasons are pretty irrelevant when ranking them.

Its another record which is relevant. And bossy didn't play long enough so its another reason.

 

[authentic]

Its another record which is relevant. And bossy didn't play long enough so its another reason.

For cross era comparisons they are completely irrelevant.

 

[Doc McKenna]

For cross era comparisons they are completely irrelevant.

Are you arguing with yourself? Having 50 goal seasons regardless of what you think Is still milestones that people look at. Otherwise no one would care that wayne and mike are the only 2 to ever had 9 of them.

 

[authentic]

Are you arguing with yourself? Having 50 goal seasons regardless of what you think Is still milestones that people look at. Otherwise no one would care that wayne and mike are the only 2 to ever had 9 of them.

Comparing Ovechkins 50 goal seasons doesn’t mean anything when 50 goals was harder to come by in his era, most would agree.

 

[mrfagerstrom]

I usually just like to lurk around here, but reading this thread and looking up Ovechkins statistics I found his career very interesting. Forgive my ignorance and rambling, as I don't follow NHL that much anymore - I tend to see maybe 5 games a season for the last ten years or so.

- Out of his 17 seasons so far, Ovechkin has only managed 11 over PPG seasons (six of which were his six first seasons) and one right at PPG. While he is undoubtedly an all time great, this is a stat I'd more associate with someone way lower down the ranks. He shoots enough that just his rebounds should lead to enough assists to hit PPG every year.
- This year might be the first time in over a decade that he hits 100 points. Seems pretty unusual for anyone to have such a big season this late in his career and after multiple lesser seasons (yes, yes, I know about the 50 goal seasons - they're impressive in their own right).

Given both those things, the fact that he's busting milestones left and right is a testament to his incredible durability. Comparables like Selanne or Bure didn't have that.

His career is probably most comparable to Brett Hull, but if this season is any indicator, he should have a better finish than Hull had. Jagr wasn't exactly the same kind of player as these two and his later career was pretty messy (maybe still overall better player than Ovechkin). Bossy, Lafleur... those guys are so far removed from todays game that comparisons are useless. I feel the same about comparing to other positions as well, whether they're from this era or another one.

 

[Zuluss]

- Out of his 17 seasons so far, Ovechkin has only managed 11 over PPG seasons (six of which were his six first seasons) and one right at PPG. While he is undoubtedly an all time great, this is a stat I'd more associate with someone way lower down the ranks. He shoots enough that just his rebounds should lead to enough assists to hit PPG every year.
- This year might be the first time in over a decade that he hits 100 points. Seems pretty unusual for anyone to have such a big season this late in his career and after multiple lesser seasons (yes, yes, I know about the 50 goal seasons - they're impressive in their own right).

Season	#5 in points	#10 in points
11-12	83	78
12-13	55	49
13-14	82	79
14-15	81	73
15-16	82	77
16-17	85	75
17-18	97	89
18-19	100	96

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Between 2011 and 2017, "ppg" meant finishing top5 in points; 100+ points was an almost guaranteed Art Ross.
In the current scoring environment, 100 points means finishing top5 in points. If scoring in mid-2010s was the way it is now (or the way it was when Ovechkin started playing), he would have been above ppg in all his seasons and would have added at least two (and probably more) 100-point seasons to his resume.
Not that it matters, of course; performance is always relative.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Season	#5 in points	#10 in points
11-12	83	78
12-13	55	49
13-14	82	79
14-15	81	73
15-16	82	77
16-17	85	75
17-18	97	89
18-19	100	96

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Between 2011 and 2017, "ppg" meant finishing top5 in points; 100+ points was an almost guaranteed Art Ross.
In the current scoring environment, 100 points means finishing top5 in points. If scoring in mid-2010s was the way it is now (or the way it was when Ovechkin started playing), he would have been above ppg in all his seasons and would have added at least two (and probably more) 100-point seasons to his resume.
Not that it matters, of course; performance is always relative.

So in other words ovechkin just wasn't good enough to score it. Care to explain 65 points in 78 games at 26 years old. And 69 points in 82 games at 31 years old?

 

[Zuluss]

So in other words ovechkin just wasn't good enough to score it. Care to explain 65 points in 78 games at 26 years old. And 69 points in 82 games at 31 years old?

You don't care to listen, what's the use?
Nothing is going to change your stupid idea that players should be evaluated by how mediocre they were at their worst, not by how great they were at their best.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

You don't care to listen, what's the use?
Nothing is going to change your stupid idea that players should be evaluated by how mediocre they were at their worst, not by how great they were at their best.

Answer this question honestly. Do you see mcdavid at any point from here until he's in his late 30s where he is gonna score 65 69 and 71 in a full season?

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

You don't care to listen, what's the use?
Nothing is going to change your stupid idea that players should be evaluated by how mediocre they were at their worst, not by how great they were at their best.

Shouldnt the entire scenario come into play when judging someone’s body of work?

He has insane highs as well as very mediocre lows. How you put the two together and judge his entire body of work is a different argument. But you don’t just get to look at the good years and forget the bad ones.

 

[wetcoast]

You don't care to listen, what's the use?
Nothing is going to change your stupid idea that players should be evaluated by how mediocre they were at their worst, not by how great they were at their best.

They should be judged by everything they do, to dismiss low points is just a really nonsensical ways to compare players.

Also if one doesn't want to look at low points or seasons it's pretty telling that those people have some sort of bias going on.

It still amazes me when people say, let's discard players X season here and there and only look at the bright spots, it's pretty obvious there is something there they don't want to see as they can't defend it.