Ovechkin milestone thread - 850 and Beyond!

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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PP TOI does not make up for the vastly higher scoring of the seasons you were referencig. That was my point. Since Ovi started playing in the NHL, he has about 300 goals more than the second best goalscorer. That's very dominant

He has 261 more goals than the next guy in 150 more games and 2000+ more SOG.

He has more goals, in part to those reasons and more PPG by playing way more minutes on the PP as well.

look Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time but let's not pretend that he doesn't have some advantages over other players as well in scoring goals, ie primary focus, SOG and PP TOI, the stats are pretty clear to see this.

 

YippieKaey

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He has 261 more goals than the next guy in 150 more games and 2000+ more SOG.

He has more goals, in part to those reasons and more PPG by playing way more minutes on the PP as well.

look Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time but let's not pretend that he doesn't have some advantages over other players as well in scoring goals, ie primary focus, SOG and PP TOI, the stats are pretty clear to see this.

Welcome to the club:) Sure, he scores more because he focuses on that and he is the all time leading powerplay scorer. Agreed!
 

filinski77

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Feb 12, 2017
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He has 261 more goals than the next guy in 150 more games and 2000+ more SOG.

He has more goals, in part to those reasons and more PPG by playing way more minutes on the PP as well.

look Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time but let's not pretend that he doesn't have some advantages over other players as well in scoring goals, ie primary focus, SOG and PP TOI, the stats are pretty clear to see this.

You always say this, and always ignore the context.

Primary focus: Because he's the best goal scorer in NHL history, and on his team. Of course his team will make him the focus, just like other teams focus on trying to stop him.

SOG: You always act like total raw SOG is a bad thing, despite ignoring the following:
-> Distance he shoots the puck from: He shoots often from very far away, of course he will have lower shooting %'s than guys who shoot on average from closer up. It makes it an apples to oranges comparison.
-> Getting a shot off is a skill. Ovechkin is one of the best at being able to get a shot off quickly, and making it dangerous. There's going to be tons of opportunities where if Ovi is in a certain position or scenario, he can get an effective shot off, but most other players couldn't. It's the same for your boy Sid and being able to make passes in areas that others couldn't.
-> Getting a shot off despite it being a "nothing" play can still be a good thing. It can create rebounds, force defensive movement etc.

PP TOI: You still always make this argument and ALWAYS ignore context
-> 2nd unit: Ovechkin spends more time on the 2nd PP unit than any other elite stars do. That will inherently lower his rate stats despite higher raw time.
-> Most importantly, the PP strategy/deployment: Ovechkins unique skillset allows him to essentially be dangerous without exerting any energy. His one-timer is such a threat that he can do NOTHING and force PK'ers to either shadow him and give up a 4-on-3 , or to leave him open. This allows him to stay out longer without reducing his effectiveness. There are NOT many players (if any) that have this ability. If you swap Ovi for a different elite player, the Caps would have to switch up their process to adapt for different skillsets, and that player that was swapped out would not be able to stay out for as long as Ovi does and still be effective. The fact that you continue to act ignorant to this (despite it being brought up so many times) shows you have an agenda you want to stick to.
 

edog37

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Yeah you missed the part where you asserted that Ovie can't be part of a big 5 because that would indicate 5 players were all on the same level, except nobody else is on Wayne's level, so you kinda made no sense there.

Anyway, there is no "big 4" because Lemieux and Orr are massively overrated and have no business being put on a level with Gretzky. They both have massive gaping weaknesses on their resumes. Not so for Howe and Gretzky.

you clearly never watched Lemieux play live. And you certainly never saw Orr play either.
 
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edog37

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Lemieux was always injured. It wasn't just cancer. His conditioning was terrible. There's luck that goes into injuries, but it was partially his own fault. He had a dominant '96 season post-cancer, it was the back injuries that really forced him to retire.

the first time yes, but it was a heart issue that actually ended his career.
 

um

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you clearly never watched Lemieux play live. And you certainly never saw Orr play either.
Agreed that Lemieux and Orr are most definitely part of the big 4. But what does seeing them live have to do with anything?

Their stats and accomplishments put them into that group.
 
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edog37

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Agreed that Lemieux and Orr are most definitely part of the big 4. But what does seeing them live have to do with anything?

Their stats and accomplishments put them into that group.

because watching highlights on YouTube & watching them play live are two different things. Lemieux & Orr are part of the Big Three/Four because of the way they controlled play/changed the way the game was played outside of scoring. The stats merely reflect the end result. I saw Lemieux stick handle through five guys & not score, but that never makes it to YouTube. Likewise, I saw him control the play to such a degree the other team feared him on the ice. There was actually palpable fear inside the arena by the opposing team. Even without scoring, you could pick this up by watching him play but it doesn't translate over to watching highlights. That is why when people say those guys were overrated clearly never watched them play.
 

um

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because watching highlights on YouTube & watching them play live are two different things. Lemieux & Orr are part of the Big Three/Four because of the way they controlled play/changed the way the game was played outside of scoring. The stats merely reflect the end result. I saw Lemieux stick handle through five guys & not score, but that never makes it to YouTube. Likewise, I saw him control the play to such a degree the other team feared him on the ice. There was actually palpable fear inside the arena by the opposing team. Even without scoring, you could pick this up by watching him play but it doesn't translate over to watching highlights. That is why when people say those guys were overrated clearly never watched them play.

I think the Stats do translate it. The only guy with comparable stats to Lemieux are Gretzky, Howe, and Orr. Everything you said also applies to the other guys in the big 4.

In fact Lemieux probably had the best highlights of all 4 guys, but thats not the point, highlights don't really dictate the quality of the player. There was a time people were blown away by Semin because of his pretty wrist shot, but he was no superstar.

Agreed that people saying they're overrated are wrong. Lemieux is a beast, If someone called him the GOAT, I understand it.
 

Midnight Judges

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That's nonsense.
I think the Stats do translate it. The only guy with comparable stats to Lemieux are Gretzky, Howe, and Orr. Everything you said also applies to the other guys in the big 4.

In fact Lemieux probably had the best highlights of all 4 guys, but thats not the point, highlights don't really dictate the quality of the player. There was a time people were blown away by Semin because of his pretty wrist shot, but he was no superstar.

Agreed that people saying they're overrated are wrong. Lemieux is a beast, If someone called him the GOAT, I understand it.
That's gibberish.

Lemieux's peak is equal to Gretzky's, except Gretzky achieved that peak far more often and contributed many more points over many more games. Those contributions are real, and they separate him from Lemieux by a huge amount.

Same for Orr.
 

um

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That's nonsense.

That's gibberish.

Lemieux's peak is equal to Gretzky's, except Gretzky achieved that peak far more often and contributed many more points over many more games. Those contributions are real, and they separate him from Lemieux by a huge amount.

Same for Orr.
what's gibberish? I don't know what you're talking about.

I got Gretzky at #1 myself.
 

Caps8112

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Gonna be sad when ovi and sid retire. We won't have the same arguments over and over again with the same pens and caps posters anymore. Crazy that it's been going on since 06.
 

ALLCAPSALLTHETIME

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Pens will get another generational superstar and move on to new arguments, while us Caps fans will be living in the past.

Lucky bastards.
Meh. Who cares about the Pens. Especially in this thread.

Ovie is still moving up the charts. Road goal #391. 12 more goals to become the highest road goal scorer of all time. :)
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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you clearly never watched Lemieux play live. And you certainly never saw Orr play either.

I think that Mario is the "weakest" of the big 4 but the other guys saying that Orr has massive weaknesses is just out to lunch and not making it back to the office anytime soon.
 
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