Out of Town Thread: Part 14

[417]

I'm not sure I subscribe to that. I remember people saying Backstrom, Ovechkin and Carlson weren't playoff warriors because they couldn't get past the second round.

The same was said of Tampa before their back-t0-back cup wins.

Playoffs sometimes is a lot of luck. When you look at the history of cup winners, the vast majority of them have teams loaded up with players like Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander, Muzzin, Reilly. When you look at the evolution of those cup winning rosters, you notice a lot changes in support cast from year-to-year.

It takes a while to find the right mix of stars and support casts. Some teams find it right away, some it takes longer, some never find it (the Sharks).

Any GM in the league would manage the leafs more or less the same, the biggest difference being that they probably would have passed on signing Tavares... though I'm not so sure.

I also remember when people said Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't "playoff warriors".

It's just one of those things that take on a life of their own and then people start repeating it as though it means something.

 

[417]

Sabres spanked the TB Cup champs 5-1..............just saying guys.
A free for all on parity this season...

Anything that happens in October is quite often a mirage.

 

[417]

I think the Leafs need to move on from Marner. He can't cut it there and his mental health is taking a beating.

I think that would be a massive mistake...but I hope Dubas listens to you.

I still think the move the that the Leafs should have never made was signing John Tavares.

 

[Andy]

Anything that happens in October is quite often a mirage.

Yah, i think people get really caught up in the numbers. A bad team can have a 5 win streak in the middle of the season, but because you have like a 50 game record to compare it to, it doesn't seem meaningful.

But because records at the beginning of the season are a clean slate, people read too much into "5-0-0" or "0-0-6"

Same thing with points. A 3rd liner getting 7 points in4 games at the beginning of the season is "breaking out" but a 3rd liner who gets 7 points in their last 4 games (and has 20 points on the season) is just on a hot-streak.

People need to let the season breathe.

 

[Andy]

I think that would be a massive mistake...but I hope Dubas listens to you.

I still think the move the that the Leafs should have never made was signing John Tavares.

I think most GMs in Dubas' position make that move (re: signing Tavares)

At the end of the day, one of Marner, Matthews and Tavares may have to be moved. Tavares will be the hardest to move, and you don't trade a goal scorer like Matthews.

I do want to clarify that if the leafs do nothing this year, then I think Marner should be moved.

 

[Goalfield13]

I also remember when people said Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't "playoff warriors".

It's just one of those things that take on a life of their own and then people start repeating it as though it means something.

I remember people saying the same about Thornton and Marleau, and they were right.

 

[MilesNewton]

Wasn't Marner a teenage wonder and I might have read his dad really controlled his development.
Has to be hard on the guy when he has to figure out how to get out of the slump

 

[Goalfield13]

Wasn't Marner a teenage wonder and I might have read his dad really controlled his development.
Has to be hard on the guy when he has to figure out how to get out of the slump

Marner was a scrappy player when he first joined the leafs. Blocked shots. Put in 100% effort. He is now a soft perimeter passer whose idea of effort is showing a grimace after a whistle. He is so predictable.

 

[417]

I think most GMs in Dubas' position make that move (re: signing Tavares)

Yeah...I get it, it would have been difficult to say no to him.

But i'm also not MMQB'ing this, I thought it was a mistake at the time so i'm just maintaining that.

That was a tough spot for Dubas to be in.

But I think it's throw their entire salary structure out of whack and forced them to be a top heavy team and having to cheap out in other critical areas.

At the end of the day, one of Marner, Matthews and Tavares may have to be moved. Tavares will be the hardest to move, and you don't trade a goal scorer like Matthews.

I do want to clarify that if the leafs do nothing this year, then I think Marner should be moved.

I get it...I think Dubas should resist the temptation though, it's not easy to win a Cup. They had a plan with this team, I think they just need to see it through.

That being said...Campbell/Mrazek, especially behind THAT defense and the lack of commitment from the forwards upfront to play a 200 foot game.

Is going to be extremely difficult to do.

 

[417]

I remember people saying the same about Thornton and Marleau, and they were right.

How?

The Stanley Cup is not an individual accomplishment, it's a team accomplishment.

I mean there were series that JT played in where he lead his team in scoring, they'd lose...happens.

 

[Goalfield13]

Yeah...I get it, it would have been difficult to say no to him.

But i'm also not MMQB'ing this, I thought it was a mistake at the time so i'm just maintaining that.

That was a tough spot for Dubas to be in.

But I think it's throw their entire salary structure out of whack and forced them to be a top heavy team and having to cheap out in other critical areas.


I get it...I think Dubas should resist the temptation though, it's not easy to win a Cup. They had a plan with this team, I think they just need to see it through.

That being said...Campbell/Mrazek, especially behind THAT defense and the lack of commitment from the forwards upfront to play a 200 foot game.

Is going to be extremely difficult to do.

It wasn't JUST Tavares. Dubas had next to no plan going forward when he signed him. When you sign a guy like Tavares, and you have a bunch of young forwards on the team with no depth on D, the answer then (and it doesn't take hindsight) was to trade one of the forwards for help elsewhere. Signing Marner to that ridiculous contract just aggravates the situation.

They lost Hyman and Andersen. They are about to lose Rielly. Their best forward outside of the top 4 is Spezza. Without Rielly, their third best D will be Holl. Two backups in net. Terrible. They may win their share in the regular season, but that will not win a series in the playoffs. Ever.

 

[Goalfield13]

How?

The Stanley Cup is not an individual accomplishment, it's a team accomplishment.

I mean there were series that JT played in where he lead his team in scoring, they'd lose...happens.

Fair point, but they were the leaders of the team, and those teams constantly choked. In the case of the leafs, their forwards make up nearly half the cap, so at that point saying it is a team loss is only really a half truth. The truth is, your best players need to be your best players in the playoffs at key times. No one is going to blame Spezza for a series loss, but it is fair to criticize Matthews.

 

[417]

It wasn't JUST Tavares. Dubas had next to no plan going forward when he signed him. When you sign a guy like Tavares, and you have a bunch of young forwards on the team with no depth on D, the answer then (and it doesn't take hindsight) was to trade one of the forwards for help elsewhere. Signing Marner to that ridiculous contract just aggravates the situation.

They lost Hyman and Andersen. They are about to lose Rielly. Their best forward outside of the top 4 is Spezza. Without Rielly, their third best D will be Holl. Two backups in net. Terrible. They may win their share in the regular season, but that will not win a series in the playoffs. Ever.

There's an art to building a team, and it can't just be throwing a handful of individually talented players together and then allowing him to do whatever they want.

Either way, I think the Leafs are going to be fine this regular season, it's a lot of panic over there for nothing...their advanced numbers show they're not playing as bad as their record shows, their shooting % is bound to get back to normal.

It's always going to be about how they perform in the playoffs.

 

[417]

Fair point, but they were the leaders of the team, and those teams constantly choked. In the case of the leafs, their forwards make up nearly half the cap, so at that point saying it is a team loss is only really a half truth. The truth is, your best players need to be your best players in the playoffs at key times. No one is going to blame Spezza for a series loss, but it is fair to criticize Matthews.

Yes there were years JT didn't deliver...but there were years where he played really well and for whatever reason, the Sharks couldn't get through.

I mean...even Matthews vs the Habs last year, it's not like he was bad lol

 

[Whitesnake]

Names will be dropping from Chicago today...and maybe beyond that...

 

[Andy]

It wasn't JUST Tavares. Dubas had next to no plan going forward when he signed him. When you sign a guy like Tavares, and you have a bunch of young forwards on the team with no depth on D, the answer then (and it doesn't take hindsight) was to trade one of the forwards for help elsewhere. Signing Marner to that ridiculous contract just aggravates the situation.

They lost Hyman and Andersen. They are about to lose Rielly. Their best forward outside of the top 4 is Spezza. Without Rielly, their third best D will be Holl. Two backups in net. Terrible. They may win their share in the regular season, but that will not win a series in the playoffs. Ever.

Didn't he add Muzzin and Brodie after signing Tavares? I feel like people are underrating Brodie. He's been very solid.

He also brought in vets like Spezza, Thornton and Simmonds to round out the experience depth, and added Kerfoot to get some middle 6 offense.

Bringing in Campbell worked out well for them as well.

The plan was there. Adding Muzzin, Brodie, Kerfoot, Thornton, Spezza, Simmonds, Campbell is the opposite of no plan. That's a pretty good support group to a pretty good core.

If Carey Price doesn't steal the series, I think we see a Leafs-Tampa final last year and the conversation is different this year.

It reminds of when everyone said the Caps had to blow everything up in 2009 when Halak stole series. There wasn't really anything wrong with the way the caps were built. They just ran into a hot goalie.

 

[Goalfield13]

There's an art to building a team, and it can't just be throwing a handful of individually talented players together and then allowing him to do whatever they want.

Either way, I think the Leafs are going to be fine this regular season, it's a lot of panic over there for nothing...their advanced numbers show they're not playing as bad as their record shows, their shooting % is bound to get back to normal.

It's always going to be about how they perform in the playoffs.

I watched them last night as did the leaf fans that are currently in panic mode. The leafs did not register a shot for the first 10 mins of the second. Campbell kept them in it for as long as he could, but it was clear the leafs were getting dominated. Leaf fans watch the games and can see how poor they play regardless of advance stats.

In regards to team building being art, I agree. Dubas' team represents a Jackson Pollock painting.

 

[MarkJ]

Bowman steps aside.

I wonder if other will too.

 

[Goalfield13]

Didn't he had Muzzin and Brodie after signing Tavares? I feel like people are underrating Brodie. He's been very solid.

He also brought in vets like Spezza, Thornton and Simmonds to round out the experience depth, and added Kerfoot to get some middle 6 offense.

Bringing in Campbell worked out well for them as well.

The plan was there. Adding Muzzin, Brodie, Kerfoot, Thornton, Simmonds, Campbell is the opposite of no plan. That's a pretty good support group to a pretty good core.

If Carey Price doesn't steal the series, I think we see a Leafs-Tampa final last year and the conversation is different this year.

It reminds of when everyone said the Caps had to blow everything up in 2009 when Halak stole series. There wasn't really anything wrong with the way the caps were built. They just ran into a hot goalie.

Yes, he finally improved the D after taking away all depth the leafs had at F outside of the top 4. JVR, Bozak, Kapanen, AJ, Kadri, Brown... Now Hyman is gone as well. They took away from their depth as a price, and they are still likely to lose Rielly. They played Bunting with Matthews and Marner yesterday lol...

 

[Hope Of Glory]

Stan Bowman is out.

The Hawks aren't messing around with this, good.

 

[MarkJ]

I have a feeling Timmins will be our new GM...

 

[ClasslessGuy]

Stan Bowman is out.

The Hawks aren't messing around with this, good.

That’s debatable

 

[Andy]

Yes, he finally improved the D after taking away all depth the leafs had at F outside of the top 4. JVR, Bozak, Kapanen, AJ, Kadri, Brown... Now Hyman is gone as well. They took away from their depth as a price, and they are still likely to lose Rielly. They played Bunting with Matthews and Marner yesterday lol...

Teams move their depth all the time to retain their stars:

Chicago dumped Leddy, Ladd, Versteeg, Teravainen, Bickell, Byfuglien, Shaw, Oduya.

That's how it works. Stars take up your cap. You need to be shrewd on depth signings, trades and drafting to round out your club.

Every GM in T.Os situation keeps Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Reilly and Tavares and dumps the players you mentioned.

Just go look at how often depth guys on the Caps, Pens, Bolts change from year to year. You keep your stars. Every team knows and does this.

 

[le_sean]

It wasn't JUST Tavares. Dubas had next to no plan going forward when he signed him. When you sign a guy like Tavares, and you have a bunch of young forwards on the team with no depth on D, the answer then (and it doesn't take hindsight) was to trade one of the forwards for help elsewhere. Signing Marner to that ridiculous contract just aggravates the situation.

They lost Hyman and Andersen. They are about to lose Rielly. Their best forward outside of the top 4 is Spezza. Without Rielly, their third best D will be Holl. Two backups in net. Terrible. They may win their share in the regular season, but that will not win a series in the playoffs. Ever.

The biggest mistake was 2018-19. They had a newly signed Tavares with Matthews and Marner still on ELCs. They should have gone all in that season knowing their depth was going to take a massive hit the following year. The poor decision making started with not signing Nylander before the season started so his cap hit was over $10m that year.

They did trade for Muzzin but they needed a lot more help than that. They still had Hainsey getting the 2nd most icetime on D and Zaitsev/Gardiner 4th and 5th. You can’t expect to go anywhere with that D.

 

[Hope Of Glory]

That’s debatable

They definitely handled it poorly at the time and when the news came out earlier this year, for sure. Now they're firing everybody involved at time, at least now they're doing the right thing.