Out of Town Thread - New Year's Edition!

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Miller Time

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Sep 16, 2004
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We're definitely hearing a larger quantity of voices than in the past, but we're not actually hearing a greater diversity or range of voices.

I'll assume that you're enthusiastic about CNN having a lot of reporters who are Black, women, LGBQTIIA+, etc. The retort to that is that it doesn't matter if Fareed Zakaria looks distinct from Anderson Cooper if they have an identical world view and if they read from the same teleprompters.

In general, the quality of writing and public discourse has gone down by a lot, due to various factors such as shorter attention spans and lower academic standards.

DA... i appreciate so much of your posting so I say this with much respect... You really need to get better informed. The bolded is so obviously and demonstrably false as to be laughable. Not sure where you go for information, but a statement like that suggests that your sources of information lack diversity and are very dubious.

As far as CNN... don't watch it. Terrible assumption. If that's your reference point, I can understand a bit better how you'd come to such poor and ungrounded conclusions. Again, encourage you to broaden your sources of information and learning.

mainstream media is, as you point out, terribly homogeneous. Unlike 10-20 years ago, mainstream media is not only not the only way for voices to be heard, they are both in significant decline.

In general, the quality of writing and public discourse available and easy to access is FAR FAR greater than it's ever been... one just needs to branch out beyond their TV to access it.

and, if you are a woman, person of colour, person with a disability, person of various sexual orientation or identity, the "quality of general public discourse" is INFINITELY better than it was in the 80's or 90's.
Duke of Hazards, Don Cherry, Andrew Dice Clay... the normalized racism/bigotry/sexism/ableism that was a hallmark of the 70's/80's/90's is simply not there anymore. A white, straight, able bodied man might claim that things have "gotten worse", but that perspective and the immense ignorance it reflects, is the very problem... and the very reason there is a backlash that needs to be called out at every opportunity.

"Lower academic standards"? Not sure when or where you went to school, or if you have kids, but i would say that again here, you are very poorly informed. An elementary school kid today has the entire breadth of the internet at their disposal to research and create whatever class project they are working on... my generation had the encyclopedia and whatever books were available at the local library. My daughter regularly produces content that is light years ahead of what anyone in my school came up with at the same age... and, she knows about residential schools, doesn't use words like Homophobic Slur or Pejorative Slur, and regularly points out the egregious flaws and biases in movies like Back to the future 3 that i once watched without any awareness of the normalized racism and power differentials that are so blatanly present.

Things are better now, if one values things like inclusion and diversity. Many don't, and some are angry about how loud the diverse voices are getting, so they want to fight back and try to reclaim the status quo that they preferred. Not sure that this is the camp you really want to align yourself with, but to each their own.
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
24,044
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There's always been a political aspect though. The military has always had a deep connection to pre game ceremonies especially in the US.

Didn't the national anthems at hockey games also become a thing during the world war?

Black lives, first Nations reconciliation, and LGBT issues are newer political messages at hockey games, but political messages are from being a new phenomenon in the nhl.

Bingo.

Fox news rhetoric 101. When we do it, it's good/patriotic/honorable.... when "they" do it, it's bad/communist/woke et.

Kapernick is a scum bag for kneeling.
Staal is a hero for exercising his right to not be compelled to blah blah blah

hypocrisy in its most blatant and obvious form
 

Belial

Registered User
Oct 22, 2014
26,142
14,323
Montreal
DA... i appreciate so much of your posting so I say this with much respect... You really need to get better informed. The bolded is so obviously and demonstrably false as to be laughable. Not sure where you go for information, but a statement like that suggests that your sources of information lack diversity and are very dubious.

As far as CNN... don't watch it. Terrible assumption. If that's your reference point, I can understand a bit better how you'd come to such poor and ungrounded conclusions. Again, encourage you to broaden your sources of information and learning.

mainstream media is, as you point out, terribly homogeneous. Unlike 10-20 years ago, mainstream media is not only not the only way for voices to be heard, they are both in significant decline.

In general, the quality of writing and public discourse available and easy to access is FAR FAR greater than it's ever been... one just needs to branch out beyond their TV to access it.

and, if you are a woman, person of colour, person with a disability, person of various sexual orientation or identity, the "quality of general public discourse" is INFINITELY better than it was in the 80's or 90's.
Duke of Hazards, Don Cherry, Andrew Dice Clay... the normalized racism/bigotry/sexism/ableism that was a hallmark of the 70's/80's/90's is simply not there anymore. A white, straight, able bodied man might claim that things have "gotten worse", but that perspective and the immense ignorance it reflects, is the very problem... and the very reason there is a backlash that needs to be called out at every opportunity.

"Lower academic standards"? Not sure when or where you went to school, or if you have kids, but i would say that again here, you are very poorly informed. An elementary school kid today has the entire breadth of the internet at their disposal to research and create whatever class project they are working on... my generation had the encyclopedia and whatever books were available at the local library. My daughter regularly produces content that is light years ahead of what anyone in my school came up with at the same age... and, she knows about residential schools, doesn't use words like Homophobic Slur or Pejorative Slur, and regularly points out the egregious flaws and biases in movies like Back to the future 3 that i once watched without any awareness of the normalized racism and power differentials that are so blatanly present.

Things are better now, if one values things like inclusion and diversity. Many don't, and some are angry about how loud the diverse voices are getting, so they want to fight back and try to reclaim the status quo that they preferred. Not sure that this is the camp you really want to align yourself with, but to each their own.
This entire post is brutal!

And it doesn't understand the real debate.
 

PhysicX

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
7,996
6,576
MTL
DA... i appreciate so much of your posting so I say this with much respect... You really need to get better informed. The bolded is so obviously and demonstrably false as to be laughable. Not sure where you go for information, but a statement like that suggests that your sources of information lack diversity and are very dubious.

As far as CNN... don't watch it. Terrible assumption. If that's your reference point, I can understand a bit better how you'd come to such poor and ungrounded conclusions. Again, encourage you to broaden your sources of information and learning.

mainstream media is, as you point out, terribly homogeneous. Unlike 10-20 years ago, mainstream media is not only not the only way for voices to be heard, they are both in significant decline.

In general, the quality of writing and public discourse available and easy to access is FAR FAR greater than it's ever been... one just needs to branch out beyond their TV to access it.

and, if you are a woman, person of colour, person with a disability, person of various sexual orientation or identity, the "quality of general public discourse" is INFINITELY better than it was in the 80's or 90's.
Duke of Hazards, Don Cherry, Andrew Dice Clay... the normalized racism/bigotry/sexism/ableism that was a hallmark of the 70's/80's/90's is simply not there anymore. A white, straight, able bodied man might claim that things have "gotten worse", but that perspective and the immense ignorance it reflects, is the very problem... and the very reason there is a backlash that needs to be called out at every opportunity.

"Lower academic standards"? Not sure when or where you went to school, or if you have kids, but i would say that again here, you are very poorly informed. An elementary school kid today has the entire breadth of the internet at their disposal to research and create whatever class project they are working on... my generation had the encyclopedia and whatever books were available at the local library. My daughter regularly produces content that is light years ahead of what anyone in my school came up with at the same age... and, she knows about residential schools, doesn't use words like Homophobic Slur or Pejorative Slur, and regularly points out the egregious flaws and biases in movies like Back to the future 3 that i once watched without any awareness of the normalized racism and power differentials that are so blatanly present.

Things are better now, if one values things like inclusion and diversity. Many don't, and some are angry about how loud the diverse voices are getting, so they want to fight back and try to reclaim the status quo that they preferred. Not sure that this is the camp you really want to align yourself with, but to each their own.
The first part of your post, I agree with.

Not so much the second part.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
30,193
21,645
DA... i appreciate so much of your posting so I say this with much respect... You really need to get better informed. The bolded is so obviously and demonstrably false as to be laughable. Not sure where you go for information, but a statement like that suggests that your sources of information lack diversity and are very dubious.

As far as CNN... don't watch it. Terrible assumption. If that's your reference point, I can understand a bit better how you'd come to such poor and ungrounded conclusions. Again, encourage you to broaden your sources of information and learning.

mainstream media is, as you point out, terribly homogeneous. Unlike 10-20 years ago, mainstream media is not only not the only way for voices to be heard, they are both in significant decline.

In general, the quality of writing and public discourse available and easy to access is FAR FAR greater than it's ever been... one just needs to branch out beyond their TV to access it.

and, if you are a woman, person of colour, person with a disability, person of various sexual orientation or identity, the "quality of general public discourse" is INFINITELY better than it was in the 80's or 90's.
Duke of Hazards, Don Cherry, Andrew Dice Clay... the normalized racism/bigotry/sexism/ableism that was a hallmark of the 70's/80's/90's is simply not there anymore. A white, straight, able bodied man might claim that things have "gotten worse", but that perspective and the immense ignorance it reflects, is the very problem... and the very reason there is a backlash that needs to be called out at every opportunity.

"Lower academic standards"? Not sure when or where you went to school, or if you have kids, but i would say that again here, you are very poorly informed. An elementary school kid today has the entire breadth of the internet at their disposal to research and create whatever class project they are working on... my generation had the encyclopedia and whatever books were available at the local library. My daughter regularly produces content that is light years ahead of what anyone in my school came up with at the same age... and, she knows about residential schools, doesn't use words like Homophobic Slur or Pejorative Slur, and regularly points out the egregious flaws and biases in movies like Back to the future 3 that i once watched without any awareness of the normalized racism and power differentials that are so blatanly present.

Things are better now, if one values things like inclusion and diversity. Many don't, and some are angry about how loud the diverse voices are getting, so they want to fight back and try to reclaim the status quo that they preferred. Not sure that this is the camp you really want to align yourself with, but to each their own.
I don't get my information from CNN, but to deny its relevance as you're doing is foolish. The importance of the mainstream media is that it's the most widely watched and the most influential, which is reflected in public opinion and public discourse and even your own posts read like MSM talking points.

With respect to lower academic standards, I'm a publishing scientist and I teach courses at one of the world's top twenty universities. Students have a harder time keeping up with standard materials, and the top students are almost always foreign exchange students from East Asia, which reflects poorly on the West.

My mentor worked at another elite university and has been assigning the same term paper for nearly twenty five years, so a perfect longitudinal study. He allows the students to write about whatever they want as long as it relates to the course materials, and there's no page limit. Students today benefit from "the entire breadth of the internet" and ... The papers have gotten shorter and less interesting. My mentor says he's less likely to learn anything from the papers, they often just repeat standard information from Wikipedia and show less critical thinking. Note, these are students who are actually better at tasks like multiple choice exams.

I'm aware of videos such as those your daughter makes. I too have watched Tropes Against Women and Anita Sarkeesian. I used to like them. They make a sport of "Aha ! A sexist stereotype! Please like my video !" That a lot of people now enjoy partaking in. There's an issue with that though ... The overall narratives and scriptwriting from Hollywood are actually weaker structurally today than they were twenty or thirty years ago. Back to the future may be an example of "Cis Heteronormative Patriarchal White Supremacy" (TM) but it has a very strong story and characters that feel real, it's flat out enjoyable forty years after its release. When I watch Netflix now I barely care about the Hollywood productions, I'm most excited about the foreign ones.
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
24,044
16,824
I don't get my information from CNN, but to deny its relevance as you're doing is foolish. The importance of the mainstream media is that it's the most widely watched and the most influential, which is reflected in public opinion and public discourse and even your own posts read like MSM talking points.

This kind of reply sounds like an echo chamber.

Perhaps it's because you watch too much CNN that the reading is affected so much? It appears your own bias is preventing real understanding of my posts... Or perhaps I'm just bad at communicating my point :dunno:

There's a massive difference between "most widely watched" and "only outlet available".

As a % of viewership, there has never been a time where the dominant news outlets had a smaller relative share... Streaming and access to niche content brings greater diversity, which quite likely is a contributing factor to the polarization of mainstream outlets as they struggle to keep eyes on them.

With respect to lower academic standards, I'm a publishing scientist and I teach courses at one of the world's top twenty universities. Students have a harder time keeping up with standard materials, and the top students are almost always foreign exchange students from East Asia, which reflects poorly on the West.

I see... Perhaps I missed where you framed it as the academic standards of western students?

I didn't realize that academic standards excluded the largest populations on the planet... My comments have been from a humanity perspective, not a localized one.

I'd agree that our education system in North America is failing on many fronts, though it's inextricably linked to factors outside of the school system. Greater diversity, contrary to many poorly grounded talking points, is not one of them.

My mentor worked at another elite university and has been assigning the same term paper for nearly twenty five years, so a perfect longitudinal study. He allows the students to write about whatever they want as long as it relates to the course materials, and there's no page limit. Students today benefit from "the entire breadth of the internet" and ... The papers have gotten shorter and less interesting. My mentor says he's less likely to learn anything from the papers, they often just repeat standard information from Wikipedia and show less critical thinking. Note, these are students who are actually better at tasks like multiple choice exams.

The overall approach to evaluation in our academic institutions is part of the systemic issues that need to be addressed... And yet another area that diversity of thought and voices is challenging dogmas of the past...

Elite universities no longer are the gate keepers of knowledge acquisition, yet remain in many fields the gatekeepers to accessing privilege, social capital and socio-economic advancement. Long past are the days where academia was primarily driven by the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake.

Follow the money... When research and science is driven by private and corporate donor interests rather than intellectual curiosity, you get what was paid for.

Nevertheless, while institutions can foster advances in human thought they are not nor have ever been the only avenue... that is only more true today precisely because access to knowledge and diverse thought is greater and spreads faster than ever before.

It also means a lot of poor information & thought spreads rapidly. Hence why I fully agree with you that the risk of backlash and regression is prominent...

Indeed, We might screw it all up.

But that wouldn't be because of the rich diversity of voices that greater inclusion and access provide, it will be because those too stuck in their old ways of thinking, or too blind to their unconscious biases, prefer to burn it all down for fear of the only constant in life. Change.

Discernment is an important aspect of critical thinking. Elite universities are increasingly poor places to develop that capacity, and it ain't the students fault... That's what teachers are supposed to be there for, but increasingly that is not the case... It's sadly no longer what their institutions funders pay them to do. Follow the money.

I'm aware of videos such as those your daughter makes. I too have watched Tropes Against Women and Anita Sarkeesian. I used to like them. They make a sport of "Aha ! A sexist stereotype! Please like my video !" That a lot of people now enjoy partaking in. There's an issue with that though ... The overall narratives and scriptwriting from Hollywood are actually weaker structurally today than they were twenty or thirty years ago. Back to the future may be an example of "Cis Heteronormative Patriarchal White Supremacy" (TM) but it has a very strong story and characters that feel real, it's flat out enjoyable forty years after its release. When I watch Netflix now I barely care about the Hollywood productions, I'm most excited about the foreign ones.

Wow... Just wow. You completely missed the mark here.

I'm not sure that my daughter has ever made a school video yet, she's a writer at heart & that's the medium of content I was referring to. See here how your reading drew conclusions that reflect your bias vs what was offered.

This response sounds eerily like a Jordan Peterson YouTube rant lol (admittedly, my disdain for that vacuous fraud and his empty talking points should not frame my reading of your post, but human all to human am I).

An 8 year old in North America watching a film that casually inserts racist tropes like the hero Calvary chasing off the savage Indians and pointing out that it's problematic for that historical injustice to be portrayed this way, is a sign of the kind of progress being made.

At that age, I was playing with Dukes of Hazzard toys and cheering on the Calvary in every film where the good guys gave chase to the bad guys with no concept of what those normalized depictions were actually about. Go on, tell me more about the quality character & plot development of that bygone era 🤣

Ironically, that the scene had no relevance to the actual plot, calls into question your romantizing of past script writing & yet again points to a heavy unconscious bias worth exploring.

Needless to say that I disagree with your perspective on art & film history, but let's leave that for another time.

The type of bias on display in your post I too am working my way through... Our kids simply have a head start (at least those not stuck in school systems being forced back in time by politicians & school trustees trying to run backwards).

If your a scientist, than I'd imagine you appreciate the importance of rigorously acknowledging and exploring your own biases, no?

This has veered well away from hockey. Happy to continue the discussion away from the thread... The offer to share some resources that might help you explore thinking outside the spaces that frame your current perspective remains open. Learning beyond mainstream news, elite institutions & netflix is easier than its ever been... At least for now.
 

26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
33,207
25,601
Man, how did we pass on Tolvanen when he was on waivers????

I guess his size (5'10) played a factor.
 

Team_Spirit

95% Elliotte
Jul 3, 2002
39,249
21,025
Must watch if you care about jerseys

History of jerseys/who could make them next



NHL goes with Fanatics

 
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