Out of Town Thread - New Year's Edition!

[ReHabs]

How is the conflict of compelled speech resolved when one of these guys has a gay teammate and declares that playing in any games alongside their gay teammate is endorsing a political movement they disapprove of?

This hasn’t happened. Why would you even go to this?!

it's the same old love the sinner hate the sin argument.

I don’t want to get into the Christian topic at all and really it’s like nails on a chalkboard for me. It could be very well they don’t want to endorse the LGBT+ lifestyle (whatever that means) through the lens of their religious beliefs. And honestly… to me it’s still fair enough. Why should they be made to endorse something that runs contrary to their values? Why can’t they simply tolerate it quietly and pluralistically as they have so far?

Imagine how fun this discourse would be if the league was 10% Muslim? Hah! What joys the underpaid moderates would have endured…

(Rest of your comment was great, I just didn’t want to blockquote too heavily. Enjoy the pizza, listen to Pink Floyd.)

 

[Andy]

I'm afraid that I see this as"if you're not with us, you're against us".

No it's not. At all.

 

[Miller Time]

You can imagine a lot of things… but cannot imagine that for certain people Pride events could have a socio-political meaning beyond “inclusion and diversity” and that people could be entitled to not want to be compelled to endorse them.

Okay well I guess that’s our impasse.

Have you read any of my replies?

I can imagine that a person can hold deeply inconsistent and self-serving interpretations of religious texts that allow them to maintain a sense of or access to privilege. It's called hypocrisy.

I can imagine that people can be ignorant and dream all sorts of inferences that ignore the direct and expicit communication provided to them... happens every day, and there are a host of cognitive biases that explain such closed-minded behavior. It's called ignorance.

I can imagine that some build up massive strawmen rather than sticking to direct and relevant arguments. It's called friday night on HFboards

i don't think our impasse is what you think it is.

 

[DAChampion]

The crowds are slowly shifting, as our the demographics of our communities... and that is giving more and more voice to those without the privilege so many in these environments have taken for grnted for so long, hence the "two steps back" DA speaks to... change is uncomfortable, especially when it's change that forces a person, a community or a society to start looking past the rosy picture that privilege allows.

With respect, no. That said we're about to enter a devastating recession so a lot of cope may be overcome.

 

[ReHabs]

Cmon DAC... the Staals never invoke their christianity for anything. When they did, they did it for Pride. What do you think that means? Don't be naive because doing so allows you to dismiss people in this thread you don't agree with.

Do they talk about Christianity and how it squares up with wealth? Do they talk about chrisitianity and drug abuse in the hockey community? Or Christianity and the treatment of women in the hockey communit? Or Christianity and adultery?

No, the Staals rarely ever speak up politically. They did once about Pride. And then invoked christianity as a reason for not participating.

Don't play dumb because doing so allows you to conveniently dismiss arguments.

The Staals only spoke because the NHL put them in a position where they were forced to speak by having this poorly conceived event in the first place.

Causality. One happens before the other.

 

[DAChampion]

Do they talk about Christianity and how it squares up with wealth? Do they talk about chrisitianity and drug abuse in the hockey community? Or Christianity and the treatment of women in the hockey communit? Or Christianity and adultery?

Nobody in this thread has any idea, quite frankly, which is part of the reason it's odd that people are making very specific judgments about them.

 

[Walrus26]

No it's not. At all.

Sorry Andy, you clearly said that refusal to participate - participate is "with" to me (you didn't say wearing pride colours, but that's what participating means in this context?) was a low level symbolic critisicm - which is "against" to me.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, then. Which is perhaps the whole point here.

Good debate is just that. Have a good weekend all.

 

[Andy]

Nobody in this thread has any idea, quite frankly, which is part of the reason it's odd that people are making very specific judgments about them.

They told us the reason: "we feel that by us wearing a Pride jersey it goes against our Christian beliefs."

 

[DAChampion]

They told us the reason: "we feel that by us wearing a Pride jersey it goes against our Christian beliefs."

Which is clearly not adequate information for the rest of us to make specific judgments about them, for example your comments on adultery and wealth.

 

[Andy]

Sorry Andy, you clearly said that refusal to participate (you didn't say wearing pride colours, but that's what participating means iin this context?) was a low level symbolic critisicm.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, then. Which is perhaps the whole point here.

Good debate is just that. Have a good weekend all.

I just don't understand the logic of: the Staal's can disagree with x because y and that is okay. But if people disagree with the Staal's because of a, those people are somehow creating division? That doesn't make any sense at all.

The Staal's can refuse to support a community not part of their vision of "us". But somehow critizing the Staal's because they don't fit some other version of "us" is to sow division?

 

[Miller Time]

I think the point is..

They refused to wear the ribbon.

You can hate on them, call them names, be mad about it, that's your prerogative, but it shouldn't go any further than that.

They did not actively do anything to disparage anyone, they did not name call anyone, they literally didn't do anything, pun intended.

Are we going to condemn everyone who believes in the bible now?

What?

I don't hate them. I hate their actions and hypocrisy, but them? I don't know them and I don't really hate anyone... all ignorance and misguided values stem from something going wrong in the nurturing and caring of a human being. We are built to care for each other, our species couldn't survive without that embedded within us. Sociopathic outliers are the anomaly. I don't think the Staals or Reimer have ever done anything to suggest they are sociopaths.

Were exactly do you think the internet chat critique of their behavior is going to go? If i met Staal again, I'd ignore him. If I was in a position to help Staal, i'd treat him with the same compassion and intention i treat anyone I'm in a position to help... but i'd certainly use the opportunity to get to know him, and hopefully over time nudge him away from his hypocrisy and (what seems likely) disgusting views of human sexuality and orientation.

Claiming that you can't support a night of community celebration focused on inclusivity and safety for all, because it goes against your religion, does directly imply that your religious beliefs are intolerant of those values... that so many in our community suffer because people in power and privilege don't speak up on their behalf does disparage.

sometimes "doing nothing" is the most harmful thing a person can do... it erases others. that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

One of the best people i know is a pastor in a church in the mid-west. Openly gay. wise and kind beyond almost belief.

The bible is just a book... As is the Q'ran

good and evil has been done in the names of both. The problem isn't the book, it's when people hypocritically use the book as either a shield or a spear to exclude and harm others around them.

the Staal's are hypocrites. It is precisely because I value the Bible as an important and incredible work of human storytelling, community building and attempt at making sense of the world (however flawed, no attempt at understanding existence is perfect) that their cowardly hypocrisy is so disturbing, and should be called out as such.

 

[Andy]

Which is clearly not adequate information for the rest of us to make specific judgments about them, for example your comments on adultery and wealth.

Fair enough.

 

[Walrus26]

The bible is just a book... As is the Q'ran

good and evil has been done in the names of both. The problem isn't the book, it's when people hypocritically use the book as either a shield or a spear to exclude and harm others around them.

I'm not going to get drawn into the viewpoints expressed by any of the hockey-playing adherents mentioned in this debate, but this *snip* from @Miller Time 's longer post is well worth quoting for truth.

Spot on.

 

[Miller Time]

With respect, no. That said we're about to enter a devastating recession so a lot of cope may be overcome.

No to what?
that there are more voices being heard today than there have been in the recent (and long term past)?

that the presence of those voices at the table is, predictably, triggering backlash?

With respect... we have very different grasps of human history and very different levels of awareness about the state of affairs on the ground today.

But yes, the coming storm is going to be ugly. the fall of empires always is, (trust me, the economic recession is the least of our concerns), and this one is playing out not much different than those before, at least in the behaviors. humans are humans, not quite as complicated as we like to make ourselves out to be.
The technological and military advances are such that it might just be the last time we get to ride this roller coaster... unless of course, we can take a bunch of steps forward.

promise you one thing, i'll stand beside you and anyone willing to keep hoping we can move forward right till that last devastating moment. (but you might want to steer clear of the staals... can't trust hypocrites and people with shallow values, especially when things get real).

 

[Walrus26]

But yes, the coming storm is going to be ugly. the fall of empires always is, (trust me, the economic recession is the least of our concerns), and this one is playing out not much different than those before, at least in the behaviors. humans are humans, not quite as complicated as we like to make ourselves out to be.
The technological and military advances are such that it might just be the last time we get to ride this roller coaster... unless of course, we can take a bunch of steps forward.

promise you one thing, i'll stand beside you and anyone willing to keep hoping we can move forward right till that last devastating moment.

Stop putting brilliant stuff in amongst stuff I don't want to actively endorse ;-)

Having one's eyes wide open is currently very scary indeed.

 

[hvac412]

Sick goal by rookie Ken Johnson from the Blue Jackets,cmon Suzi/Dach you can do it

 

[Team_Spirit]

 

[DAChampion]

that there are more voices being heard today than there have been in the recent (and long term past)?

We're definitely hearing a larger quantity of voices than in the past, but we're not actually hearing a greater diversity or range of voices.

I'll assume that you're enthusiastic about CNN having a lot of reporters who are Black, women, LGBQTIIA+, etc. The retort to that is that it doesn't matter if Fareed Zakaria looks distinct from Anderson Cooper if they have an identical world view and if they read from the same teleprompters.

In general, the quality of writing and public discourse has gone down by a lot, due to various factors such as shorter attention spans and lower academic standards.

 

[JianYang]

With respect, I'm not going to get into a political L v R thing so have snipped out that part of your post. However, you could not be more spot on with this observation above.

And that applies just as equally to the whole uniform / forces fetish that I see on North American sports feeds far too often.

In London in the 1980's, Stonewall (famous UK gay rights group) ran a brilliant ad campaign on the side of London buses. The simple line was "some people are gay, get over it" and that's stuck with me since I first saw it in my early teens because it's simply right. However, many people are not gay, and people need to get over that as well.

Live and let live.

There's always been a political aspect though. The military has always had a deep connection to pre game ceremonies especially in the US.

Didn't the national anthems at hockey games also become a thing during the world war?

Black lives, first Nations reconciliation, and LGBT issues are newer political messages at hockey games, but political messages are from being a new phenomenon in the nhl.

 

[holy]

This is no place to post hockey related content.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

There's always been a political aspect though. The military has always had a deep connection to pre game ceremonies especially in the US.

Didn't the national anthems at hockey games also become a thing during the world war?

Black lives, first Nations reconciliation, and LGBT issues are newer political messages at hockey games, but political messages are from being a new phenomenon in the nhl.

military appreciation night: "show your respects!"

LGBT night: "dOn'T fOrCe mE tO bOw dOwN tO yOuR iDeOlOgY!!"

 

[River Meadow]

military appreciation night: "show your respects!"

LGBT night: "dOn'T fOrCe mE tO bOw dOwN tO yOuR iDeOlOgY!!"

tbf, you don't need to wear a specific colored shirt for military appreciation night

 

[Belial]

military appreciation night: "show your respects!"

LGBT night: "dOn'T fOrCe mE tO bOw dOwN tO yOuR iDeOlOgY!!"

How is this comparable?

And no one asked anyone to wear specific gear to "ShOw ReSpEk".

 

[Prairie Habs]

How is this comparable?

And no one asked anyone to wear specific gear to "ShOw ReSpEk".

Agreed. Saying that the LGBTQ+ should be welcome in hockey should be far less controversial than a night of paid advertising by the military industrial complex. Especially to Christians who are supposed to be all about that peace and love stuff.

 

[Belial]

Agreed. Saying that the LGBTQ+ should be welcome in hockey should be far less controversial than a night of paid advertising by the military industrial complex. Especially to Christians who are supposed to be all about that peace and love stuff.

Paid advertising? What the hell?

It's just a light gest to commemorate our past for god sake.