OT: MLS closing in on NFL, NBA, MLB in U.S. - Landon Donovan

[Last Gleaming]

Team names more creative than FC, might help too.

It would improve the folkloric potential of American soccer, at least. The league had an extreme reaction to some of the garish, Nike-picked original brands: Clash, Burn, Wiz (although I always enjoyed its replacement, Wizards), Mutiny, etc. Happily, we never had to endure the Chicago Rhythm. There have been exceptions like the revival of the Sounders, Timbers, and Whitecaps, but generally, the new team names have been pure Euro-kitsch. Maybe there'll come a future wave of memorable (re-)names to bury this copycatted blandness.

 

[Hasbro]

It would improve the folkloric potential of American soccer, at least. The league had an extreme reaction to some of the garish, Nike-picked original brands: Clash, Burn, Wiz (although I always enjoyed its replacement, Wizards), Mutiny, etc. Happily, we never had to endure the Chicago Rhythm. There have been exceptions like the revival of the Sounders, Timbers, and Whitecaps, but generally, the new team names have been pure Euro-kitsch. Maybe there'll come a future wave of memorable (re-)names to bury this copycatted blandness.

I did like the Urologists Bowl between the Wiz and Burn.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I did like the Urologists Bowl between the Wiz and Burn.

The Gonorrhea Derby

 

[eddygee]

I did like the Urologists Bowl between the Wiz and Burn.

Alex I'll take things you don't want hand and hand for $500.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Average age in MLS: 25.3.
Average age in EPL: 26.7.

MLS is not a retirement league anymore.

So, when do we see Mbappe, Pogba, Kane, Lukaku, and so on? Wait, they're not coming over here because they're over in Europe playing in the top leagues there? You mean we can't even snag a 34-year old Thiago Silva or a 33-year old Lukas Podolski? [We do have 34-year old Bastian Schweinsteiger, who's on the retirement plan and is an absolute shell of his former self, so there's that.]

I don't get why your stating LIGA Mx's history to make a point of how it relates to future MLS growth, especially when MLS is in hyper growth. The moment in time MLS catch’s Liga Mx or surpasses it, all history is irrelevant re: best league.

It has nothing to do with the future growth of MLS. It has everything to do with how good MLS is relative to other leagues. As in, "can our best teams consistently beat their best teams?" And so far, the answer is a fairly resounding no.

If Ligue 1 is currently the 5th best league in the world (widely assumed to be top 5) , I'd bet MLS would catch Ligue 1 in the next 5 years.

I would love to take your money on that, presuming you can come up with objective criteria regarding the quality of play in the league. Don't give me "number of teams" and "number of teams that have a chance" because number of teams means squat, and I can cite dozens of examples of sports conferences that were "more competitive" within itself and couldn't sniff the jock strap of other conferences that clearly had better teams.

MLS might not have a PSG type team in 5 years because they will spread out their talent among 28 teams. Overall the league will have games that are much more competitive. (More regular competition in Liga MX, MLS - Martino)

So what? Will MLS be "more competitive" than other leagues? Probably. Will any of those MLS teams manage to hang on the pitch with even middle-tier European clubs?

So how could MLS catch Ligue 1 in 5 years? Here's some different factors you would consider.

You're using a really detached definition of "competitive" and "better" to make your argument. I mean, if you narrow the criteria sufficiently you could get MLS into the top-3 or top-2, or maybe even #1. Meanwhile, the rest of the world sees "how competitive is [league]" and starts asking "how do the better teams in that league stack up to better teams in other leagues?"

Plus, you conveniently leave out that Ligue 1 [and other European leagues] have relegation, which shuffles out weaker teams in favor of ... well, weaker teams that get a season to sink or swim, and it's not that uncommon that they sink back. MLS teams are fully insulated from that and likely always will; that alone will probably make the bottom teams better [especially since there's no Chivas USA clogging up the drain]. It in no way means our better teams are getting better, though. But hey, I guess "a more competitive group top-to-bottom" is OK, as long as you realize the New York Red Bulls, Atlanta, and Portland would get their asses kicked by anyone making the UEFA Champions League and well over half of those making the group stage in the UEFA Europa League - and that's not going to change for a number of years to come.

And in the world of international football, that's what "being competitive" means, not "ooh, their 28 teams had a bunch of revenue and atmospheres were swell and attendance was good and the spread from top to bottom was 'only' however many points and there could have been 17 teams really vying for the title."

My estimation is young players in North America, South America and Central America will choose MLS in 2024 over playing for a mid table Ligue 1 clubs; mean while MLS teams will have opened up the strings to allow teams to spend more.

MLS isn't opening the purse strings any time soon. It's tightly controlled for a reason: to control player salaries so no one goes stupid spending a la Man City, Barcelona, PSG, etc. As soon as a "good young" player from outside North America appears [you know, presuming they weren't somehow spotted years prior], they'll attract attention from Europe and someone will gladly pay a transfer fee to fetch them. We're getting perhaps the 2nd-tier and 3rd-tier best from Central America and South America, not the blue-chip guys; they were plucked long ago and have spent years in the [likely top] club academies in Europe. If you're going to attract those guys first, you better have a plan to tab them and beat Europe to them - and "we're going to have a bunch of teams" and "we'll have a great atmosphere" isn't going to cut it.

Look, I know you want to go to bat for MLS - and I get it. MLS isn't nearly as bad as it was 20 years ago. But it's also clearly not a top-tier destination for the premier guys in the sport, and it's not going to be for a number of years to come. Enjoy MLS for what it is: a mid-tier football league in the world, that is slowly building depth but is nowhere near ready to start splurging for top-level talent and certainly doesn't have world-class talent sitting in the wings ready to shine on the pitch. It's not a top-5 league now, it's not close to a top-5 league now, and it's not going to be a top-5 league 5 years from now.

 

[PCSPounder]

I'm not here to support that MLS will pass a lot of leagues in 5 years. Mind you, 10 is possible, but I'm not holding my breath.

I just want to remind you of SUM. Which is my way of saying that MLS is designed to lose money. It's not the profit center. There's a profit center. Factor that in.

 

[eddygee]

I'm not here to support that MLS will pass a lot of leagues in 5 years. Mind you, 10 is possible, but I'm not holding my breath.

I just want to remind you of SUM. Which is my way of saying that MLS is designed to lose money. It's not the profit center. There's a profit center. Factor that in.

Exactly which is why I roll my eyes at the MLS is Minor League teams are losing money it's failing talk. SUM=MLS they are one in the same. MLS owners own the majority stake. In 2017 SUM was valuated at $ 2 billion dollars, that doesn't count the just about $1 billion dollars for MLS , that's 3 billion dollars business that the men running MLS are running. It shows a lack of understanding of how the league is operated. Which is why I think its sooner rather than never like some believe for MLS. The owners sent commissioner Don Garber out way back in 2015 to say that the league was aiming to be a top 5 league in the world by 2022. While that may not technically come true it points to the plan and vision of the owners to where they are gearing to position MLS.

MLS sits arguably about Top 12-13 globally the owners most likely timed that 2022 date with the expiring TV deal and will go all in with their resources after the expected 2022 TV deal windfall.

The guys running MLS have planned it's rise strategically. It's been cool watching the rise of this league the past 14 yrs, many people along the way have doubted it and proclaimed it is was gonna implode. When their proclamations proved wrong they moved on to nit-picking about MLS "well its not Europe" "it's Minor League". When it was a lowly league 5-10 yrs ago barely top 50 in the world the argument was "see it's such poor quality it's not even top 15-20 in the World I can't take it serious". Now that its met those bars I hear the goal post moved to "well see it's not Top 5 in the World and see the problem is Americans won't embrace it because it's not the Top league in the World like the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL". It's like they figured that'd buy them sometime despite that reasoning being so flawed in actual logic. MLS doesn't have to be the top soccer league in the World for it to make it big and be considered Major League. #1 it is already Major League despite what some haters online think. #2 Soccer is unique there isn't a monopoly on who is the king of it, hence it's called the World's game. There are about 5-6 leagues all vying to be the best league in the World annually, with those leagues falling up and down the pecking order cyclically. MLS while already being Major is a tier below those leagues and sits at the top 10-15 range. The best way to get there is resources. MLS is already close as the 9th wealthiest soccer league in the World.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Soccer is unique there isn't a monopoly on who is the king of it, hence it's called the World's game. There are about 5-6 leagues all vying to be the best league in the World annually, with those leagues falling up and down the pecking order cyclically. MLS while already being Major is a tier below those leagues and sits at the top 10-15 range. The best way to get there is resources. MLS is already close as the 9th wealthiest soccer league in the World.

That's why I enjoy the MLS despite having that North American mentality that if it's not the biggest league then I wont follow it (I don't follow CFL mainly for that reason). Soccer fans have a different mentality in that you follow YOUR league, not the biggest.

Do Germans, Italians or Spaniards really care that Bundesliga, Serie A, or La Liga isn't the Premier League?

 

[eddygee]

That's why I enjoy the MLS despite having that North American mentality that if it's not the biggest league then I wont follow it (I don't follow CFL mainly for that reason). Soccer fans have a different mentality in that you follow YOUR league, not the biggest.

Do Germans, Italians or Spaniards really care that Bundesliga, Serie A, or La Liga isn't the Premier League?

Heck each will look you dead in the eye and tell you why they are the best not giving a inch. The funny thing too is that Europeans that know their soccer/football respect our league more than we do who lack the knowledge appreciation of the skill that's developed in MLS. This why it's important to point out the fallacy to those who believe in the theory that since MLS isn't the top league in the world then it will never matter to North Americans. The culture in soccer is that if one follows it a closely they will learn and understand. I suspect more in more in the next 5-10 yrs that people's understanding will grow and become more sophisticated and realize that there really isn't a best league title where the other leagues outside the self proclaimed best league are deemed "minor". The best comparison would be to power 5 College Football, except that not all of the conferences play each other. People who are alumna or located in the state of a university support their school regardless. Soccer is the same you follow YOUR league and team, regardless. Trying to compare its structure and culture to the other Big leagues in the US/Canada is futile. It's why some can't understand the crazy success of some MLS teams getting 50-60-70k to games.

 

[varsaku]

Just under 15 years ago Toronto FC paid an expansion fee of $10 million to join the league. Now expansion fee is around $150 million. No one will be paying that much higher of an expansion fee if there wasn’t any potential growth. Values of teams have been increasing at an incredible pace. I think that is what Landon was trying to conve. The rate of growth could potentially lead MLS being able to compete with the big 4. The amount of disposable income spent on sports leave still room for other sports like soccer to take root here. Majority of people righting off MLS base their opinions of stereotypes and rumors about the league than forming their opinions. That’s why the retirement league naming calling still is around despite data proving that wrong.

 

[eddygee]

Just under 15 years ago Toronto FC paid an expansion fee of $10 million to join the league. Now expansion fee is around $150 million. No one will be paying that much higher of an expansion fee if there wasn’t any potential growth. Values of teams have been increasing at an incredible pace. I think that is what Landon was trying to conve. The rate of growth could potentially lead MLS being able to compete with the big 4. The amount of disposable income spent on sports leave still room for other sports like soccer to take root here. Majority of people righting off MLS base their opinions of stereotypes and rumors about the league than forming their opinions. That’s why the retirement league naming calling still is around despite data proving that wrong.

That's the dead give away when someone doesn't know what they are talking about when they are talking MLS but want to act like they do. It's ok to say I don't know or I haven't paid enough attention to know. However they go to a decade old concept and stick to that and try to debate you despite data showing their view point is incorrect. Same thing applies to MLS finances and rate of growth. In this thread we've seen the MLS would've been fine if it had stop growing fallacy argument, despite factual evidence that this is blatantly false. MLS got stronger, richer, more notoriety in the US/world and the quality is better than it's ever been since it started to expand. It was a nothing fledgling league before it expanded outward from 10 to 24 teams. At 24 teams and with plans to expand to 32 MLS only occupies 21 US markets while the other Big leagues occupy 25 to 32 US Markets, so get ready for more expansion 8 additional major US Cities will be entering the league in the next 5 to 10 yrs. Why was it/is ok for the other big leagues in the US/Canada to expand thus increasing their TV footprint for TV$ and grow the game but it's deemed bad when MLS did it? Why are people so quick to judge a league that's made it? We are getting to see in our lifetime in real time the evolution of growth that the other Big US leagues went thru in their 75-100+yr histories with MLS. Isn't that kinda cool to watch?

 

[varsaku]

MLS had 12 teams in 2006, has 24 now, 28 in two years, and the commissioner just started he wants to go to 40 teams. Where the hell are they going to find the talent? NHL has added one team in the last 20 years (Vegas), and I think with Seattle coming in a couple years, we risk diluting the product a little, and that's 2 teams in 25 years. What the MLS is doing is very irresponsible for the league, from a talent perspective. They're going for short term gains with the collection of expansion fees, over a long term healthy and competitive talent base

MLS expanding will do nothing to dilute talent. It will dilute domestic talent but that can be easily reversed by adding more international roster spots. Soccer unlike the big 4 has a massive world wide talent pool. The big 4 however have to be cautious of expansion because the talent pool is limited and further expansion dilutes the talent.

 

[frivolousz21]

This is true for every league minus the very top clubs in the world. In global soccer you gain clout by having those those type of players to sell. You work your way up the ladder. MLS has a advantage over those other selling leagues outside the top 5 they have the resources to draw players outside of their price range.

The problem is Americans are fully saturated in being top flight.

This will severely cap the growth potential of MLS.

There is no way people will accept MLS as top flight investment on the whole when it's so far away from that.

 

[frivolousz21]

Brazil and Argentina have so extremely strong domestic player development that the MLS can not really challenge them as long as it is not as desirable destination as the European top leagues are. This season alone Brazilian first league clubs have earned more than 200 million euros from player transfers which enables them to maintain a very high level broadly comparable to the second-tier European ones. If we take the market value estimates provided by Transfermarkt, the league ranking would look as follows (average squad value in million €):

414.09 ENG1
276.50 ESP1
238.67 GER1
233.38 ITA1
165.39 FRA1
58.16 POR1
56.98 RUS1
55.99 NED1
49.46 ENG2
47.93 BRA1
40.94 BEL1
39.93 MEX1
35.09 TUR1
33.32 CHN1
31.61 ARG1
28.64 SUI1
24.58 AUT1
23.56 UKR1
23.19 KSA1
22.37 GER2
21.96 MLS
19.45 GRE1
19.26 JPN1
18.76 SCO1
17.70 ITA2
15.58 ESP2
14.58 CRO1
13.64 CZE1
13.75 FRA2
13.40 COL1

Within the MLS Atlanta United is by far the most valuable at 59.25 million (would be 5th in Portugal), followed by Los Angeles FC at 33.65 million (7th in China) and Columbus Crew at 27.05 million (5th in Switzerland). The last would be Vancouver Whitecaps at 14.63 million (4th in Croatia).

That's amazing when you consider the economy the Americans and Canadians have.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The problem is Americans are fully saturated in being top flight.

This will severely cap the growth potential of MLS.

There is no way people will accept MLS as top flight investment on the whole when it's so far away from that.

Disagree. More and more American kids are playing the sport and that will eventually translate to more talents

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Disagree. More and more American kids are playing the sport and that will eventually translate to more talents

30+ years and counting on that one

 

[varsaku]

Disagree. More and more American kids are playing the sport and that will eventually translate to more talents

30+ years and counting on that one

Before MLS there were no academies and the strain of player development was left to college and pay to play programs. Over time we have seen this to be a very inefficient way to develop quality talent and excludes many potential athletes. Since MLS made it a requirement to have academies, we are seeing more players come through and make the first team. However majority of these academy players end up being depth players but with time academies will be able to develop quality talent once the kinks are worked out.

 

[eddygee]

The problem is Americans are fully saturated in being top flight.

This will severely cap the growth potential of MLS.

There is no way people will accept MLS as top flight investment on the whole when it's so far away from that.

This is a half truth, the older MLS teams created in the 90s face this issue but the culture has changed, you see each new MLS city doing actually the opposite of what you said they wouldn't do. They are accepting it as top flight. I can see why it's hard for those who aren't in one of these markets to realize this, I also accept that there are older markets that MLS is a complete afterthought in. The Atlanta's, Seattle's, Real Salt Lakes, Portland's, Toronto's Kansas City's, Orlando's etc... are proving that fans in those cities in ever growing numbers consider their MLS teams to be apart of the US Big 5 Major Leagues, and that's all that really matter. MLS is experiencing a snowball effect in popularity thru expansion. Fans in the newer expansion cities saw the affect of last newest city and say "oh this is suppose to be a Major thing" and so they care. The next 8 cities that come on board will continue on that snowball effect. It's hard getting people who think something to change their ways or opinions on a matter, they often won't accept or believe reality until it actually affects them.

30+ years and counting on that one

To the 30+years and counting crowd there is actual evidence you are wrong its' no longer a proclamation to the future as was made in the 70's. I know it makes you feel really cool and clever but the evidence isn't on your side. If you were actually correct soccer would have failed once again in this country like the NASL did, instead MLS is stronger than ever and enters its 24th season. It's has outlasted the 17 year existence of NASL the league that got "soccer will be the next big thing" quote coined, as you can see on this board some still mockingly say. MLS just has proved those who still mockingly use that term wrong. MLS with its mere existence where/when it's talked about is a constant reminder to them. If I said something and each year what I said got proven to be wrong a little more and more each year, I'd either do two things, admit I was wrong or dig in even more and go all in on my original statement in hopes that people would buy in to my thinking. The problem is while some still buy in, less and less listen to them. You look old and grumpy and are the gatekeepers I mentioned earlier in this thread. "The old guy yelling at the kids to get off my lawn" Or worse the kid of that old guy.

 

[blood gin]

Who is Landon Donovan. Legit never heard of him.

Soccer has a place in the U.S. Always has and always will. Football while far more entertaining and popular IS incredibly dangerous. Soccer needs to exist as that safe boring drab alternative where you can sit in a lawn chair and watch your kids run around on a Saturday morning and not worry about CTE.

 

[eddygee]

Who is Landon Donovan. Legit never heard of him.

Soccer has a place in the U.S. Always has and always will. Football while far more entertaining and popular IS incredibly dangerous. Soccer needs to exist as that safe boring drab alternative where you can sit in a lawn chair and watch your kids run around on a Saturday morning and not worry about CTE.

Lol the Nascar of real sports but CTE has also a become a big issue in soccer unfortunately.

 

[blood gin]

Lol the Nascar of real sports but CTE has also a become a big issue in soccer unfortunately.

it has? Is it just exclusively from heading the ball?

I really had no idea.

 

[Bookie21]

Disagree. More and more American kids are playing the sport and that will eventually translate to more talents

Could you elaborate on the more kids are playing soccer statement? Link?

Redirect Notice

Its actually declining at an alarming rate

 

[eddygee]

it has? Is it just exclusively from heading the ball?

I really had no idea.

Yeah from headers and knocks occuring during corner kicks like guys getting punched, kicked, kneed in the head by keepers with occasional player to player elbows to the face, and head to head contact while going up for the ball.

 

[blood gin]

Kids have been playing tons of soccer in America since the 1970's. And you know what happens? They become teenagers, get bored, stop and just end up watching football on Sundays for the rest of their lives

 

[Machinehead]

Donovan might want to take a look at MLS’ TV ratings... woah, doggie are they bad. MLS Cup gets pitiful ratings and regular season games, even the most popular, equal Seinfeld reruns on TBS (if they are lucky).

MLS could make the leap one day... but they need to pull in better than 1.0 ratings for their prime telecasts before they are even close.

People talk about how baseball has faded and yet baseball still quadruple ups MLS, at a minimum, on the bad days. 13-14 million people watch the World Series. Maybe a million watch MLS Cup.

Good luck, Landon.

Because MLS is like 12th tier league lol

The Premier League gets excellent ratings in the US.