OT: MLS closing in on NFL, NBA, MLB in U.S. - Landon Donovan

[John Price]

Not a surprise Garber has done a great job expanding the league and making it very strong in America. Good for MLS.

 

[Gecklund]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet but the MLS Cup final had more in attendance than the Super Bowl in the same stadium (by about 3K).

 

[Coinneach]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet but the MLS Cup final had more in attendance than the Super Bowl in the same stadium (by about 3K).

Ok, but only 1.6M viewers on FOX.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet but the MLS Cup final had more in attendance than the Super Bowl in the same stadium (by about 3K).

purely a factor of stadium configuration and media.

Each network (NBC, CBS, NFL, etc) took over sections of seats to build large studios in the stadium, for example.

MLS Cup average ticket price: $271
SB53 average ticket price: $5,239

 

[Butch 19]

I watch a lot of soccer every 4 years.

 

[Coinneach]

"Compared to the 2018 opening weekend, the viewing numbers for the nationally televised games this past weekend were:
• Down 24% on Univision for Orlando-New York City,
• Down 13% on ESPN for DC United-Atlanta United,
• Up just 6% for LA Galaxy-Chicago and Seattle-Cincinnati on FS1."

"In the MLS 2018 regular season, viewing numbers were down on both ESPN and FS1. ESPN and ESPN2 had their lowest audience for MLS games since 2014. FS1 failed on multiple occasions to draw more than 200,000 viewers to their broadcasts. While the viewing numbers were up for the over-the-air FOX network, it was only because they aired the games immediately after World Cup matches when TV sets were left on..."

MLS begins 2019 season with disappointing TV ratings on ESPN, FS1 and Univision - World Soccer Talk

 

[Licentia]

I'm not happy about the growth of soccer in North America. I feel it is a threat to leagues like the Canadian Football League.

 

[David Dennison]

I live in St Louis, what are the odds we get team #28? It seems to be between us and Sacramento. Both cities have played around with getting a team before but never got anything done, and both have got solid money behind the bids this time too.

It will be interesting to see youth participation numbers over the next decade. It has always been you play soccer until maybe 4th or 5th grade when most people switch to the other sports. But with concussion/safety concerns and rising costs of youth sports, soccer is well positioned as safer and more affordable than hockey, football, and other niche sports.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I'm not happy about the growth of soccer in North America. I feel it is a threat to leagues like the Canadian Football League.

It's weird, especially in Toronto. The TV numbers for soccer are terrible, but attendance and game atmosphere is great. For the CFL, it's the exact opposite. TV numbers are awesome, but in stadium attendance is suffering.

Each league wants what the other has

Soccer will be a gate driven league for a while in NA.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet but the MLS Cup final had more in attendance than the Super Bowl in the same stadium (by about 3K).

Means nothing without context.

Simply a matter of configuration and ticket prices.

Super Bowl tickets prices would have seen 20K at the MLS Cup more than likely.

Take away all the media and sponsors and allow a maximized ticket configuration and the Super Bowl blows it away.

 

[aqib]

But... I am not talking about the world... I am talking about the fact that it’s a top league in US and Canada.

And if you have an issue with a name for some reason, it just seems petty. Who cares?

American football is only entertaining st highest quality. Soccer can be fun to watch even at lower level, that’s why I watch MLS games. As well as Premier League and La Liga and etc. Heck I watch Scottish football.

Are you not familiar with college football? Its kind of a big deal.

I don't have an issue with the name, I was just saying that in the soccer universe MLS is still minor league.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Are you not familiar with college football? Its kind of a big deal.

I don't have an issue with the name, I was just saying that in the soccer universe MLS is still minor league.

College football is important in a similar sense why junior hockey is important. You are looking out for next NFL stars.
And also school spirit plays big part too. None of which can be provided by AAF or XFL.

And you clearly do have an issue with the name then.

 

[eddygee]

I'm not happy about the growth of soccer in North America. I feel it is a threat to leagues like the Canadian Football League.

Really? So you want it to fail? I'm actually not shocked I've found and always thought there was a subset of this kind of person but shocked you admitted it. Just replace Canadian Football League with National Hockey League or Major League Baseball etc.

It's just bizarre to me as a sports fan, as you can like multiple sports. I want the NHL to grow, I want MLS to grow. As for baseball it's more personal I want my Orioles to win a freaking World Series in my lifetime. I'm not sure why its so tribal. I think the subject would make for a great book call it the "The Sports Mind".

 

[eddygee]

Are you not familiar with college football? Its kind of a big deal.

I don't have an issue with the name, I was just saying that in the soccer universe MLS is still minor league.

But it's not, it's only used by that term by two sets of people Euro Snobs that don't tend to be the most knowledgeable well rounded soccer fans and and people who are anti soccer because they have a gate keeper mentality and see it as a threat to whatever sport or league they like.

 

[NCRanger]

"Compared to the 2018 opening weekend, the viewing numbers for the nationally televised games this past weekend were:
• Down 24% on Univision for Orlando-New York City,
• Down 13% on ESPN for DC United-Atlanta United,
• Up just 6% for LA Galaxy-Chicago and Seattle-Cincinnati on FS1."

"In the MLS 2018 regular season, viewing numbers were down on both ESPN and FS1. ESPN and ESPN2 had their lowest audience for MLS games since 2014. FS1 failed on multiple occasions to draw more than 200,000 viewers to their broadcasts. While the viewing numbers were up for the over-the-air FOX network, it was only because they aired the games immediately after World Cup matches when TV sets were left on..."

MLS begins 2019 season with disappointing TV ratings on ESPN, FS1 and Univision - World Soccer Talk

MLS TV numbers are terrible because the the games are scheduled at times where they get buried. 3-4-5 PM on a Sunday during the spring and summer are not a time when people are watching TV, unless it's baseball.

I know a 3 PM start is a traditional start time for European leagues, but that does not translate well to American sports TV.

Games really need to be noon, 1, and nights. And stick to a set schedule. Games all over the place on multiple providers makes it extremely difficult to even know when and where games are televised. And it doesn't help that ESPN tends to cover the same 5 teams all the time (Portland, KC, Seattle, and the LA teams.)

 

[eddygee]

Exactly what tier the MLS is in was never the point, though.

The ratings are bad, that's a fact, and the simple reason is that there's way better leagues. That will likely always be true.

I'm a fan of MLS but I also watch Europe like many American fans, and some just watch Europe and not MLS. I don't know anybody who just watches MLS and not Europe.

As such, using MLS to determine the success of soccer in the US will never be accurate because it will never be the first choice.

The thing that pours cold water over this theory and approach is that MLS US TV ratings are higher than the the US TV Ratings the every Euro League sans EPL. It only trails EPL by about 100k viewers.

So its not about better options to watch. It comes down to it just has taken time for MLS to grow into to what it now is since its inception in 1996. We are seeing MLS slowly but steadily grow in TV ratings as it gets a deeper cultural foothood.

At some point if we are gonna have this debate/conversation about MLS and whether its growing or failing as a league, we have to start using data and stop just going with our opinions of what we want or choose to believe.

 

[Licentia]

Really? So you want it to fail? I'm actually not shocked I've found and always thought there was a subset of this kind of person but shocked you admitted it. Just replace Canadian Football League with National Hockey League or Major League Baseball etc.

It's just bizarre to me as a sports fan, as you can like multiple sports. I want the NHL to grow, I want MLS to grow. As for baseball it's more personal I want my Orioles to win a freaking World Series in my lifetime. I'm not sure why its so tribal. I think the subject would make for a great book call it the "The Sports Mind".

Sports fans only have so many dollars to go around, and only so much time to dedicate to the hobby. It is not possible for every sport and league to flourish in North America. It just isn't. Desiring for every league to succeed isn't going to make it possible.

Soccer is very popular the world over. It wouldn't cease to exist if MLS failed. The CFL; however, is a unique game. It is unique to Canada. If it dies, it is gone forever.

Hey, I've got this garden... It's full of flowers and weeds. I work hard to water, and care for both the flowers and weeds. I really want for everything to flourish, but it's just not working out somehow... Why, oh why not?!?

 

[aqib]

College football is important in a similar sense why junior hockey is important. You are looking out for next NFL stars.
And also school spirit plays big part too. None of which can be provided by AAF or XFL.

And you clearly do have an issue with the name then.

That is the case in New York but in large parts of the country college football is a religion and is followed with more passion than the NFL. Ask anyone in BIG 10, SEC, of Big 12 country

As far as the name "Major League Soccer" goes, I don't have issue with it. My point is that in the soccer universe MLS is on par with AAF and XFL.

 

[aqib]

But it's not it's only used by that term by two sets of people Euro Snobs that don't tend to be the most knowledgeable well rounded soccer fan and and people who are anti soccer because they have a gate keeper mentality and see it as a threat to whatever sport or league they like.

If the MLS Cup champ was placed in the EPL, Serie A, La Liga, or Bundesliga how do you think they would fare?

 

[eddygee]

Duplicate post mobile acting up sorry.

 

[eddygee]

Delete

 

[eddygee]

Deleted

 

[eddygee]

If the MLS Cup champ was placed in the EPL, Serie A, La Liga, or Bundesliga how do you think they would fare?

It's hard to say because the salary structure is so different you have teams spending 26mil at the top 6 mil at the bottom in MLS. It depends on the league. So look at it like this MLS teams are allowed 3 DPS can pay them whatever. Depending on the league these DPs range from Service Starters for some top table teams to significant contributors for mid and bottom table sides. You then have a large chunk of (TAM) players Targeted Allocated Players making 1.5m yr, they'd be first 18 role players off the bench guys. The other 4-5 starters for MLS teams would be 2nd Divisions starters in those foreign leagues.

So all in all I'd say the MLS Champ would be lower mid table to perennial relegation battle team in the EPL. In some of the other leagues that aren't as rich as the EPL maybe they could establish themselves as a solid mid table team but I think the same reality of being a lower mid table to perrenial team at risk of relegation would be their existence.

 

[Lepardi]

Kids who play soccer are watching the EPL on NBC and the Champions League on Fox Sports on TV. The USA not qualifying for the World Cup and generally being very bad doesn't help.

From the perspective of a person whose country has never even made it to the European Championships, saying that USA is "generally very bad" in soccer doesn't sound completely right. They've made it to the knockout stage in four of the last seven World Cups, and even reached the quarterfinals in 2002.

I can't see the MLS drawing interest from people who know better while they can turn on their TV pretty much every weekend and a ton of weekdays to see a significantly higher level of play.

Attending your local team's games and supporting that team has nothing to do with "not knowing better". I know full well that the Finnish hockey league is garbage compared to the NHL and the Finnish soccer league is utter garbage compared to the UEFA Champions League. That doesn't stop me from supporting my local team Ilves in both hockey and soccer and sometimes attending their games. Seeing the game in person is a lot different from watching sports on TV, and socializing with your friends and fellow townsmen is a big part of that experience.

I've been to watch some Premier League and UEFA Champions League matches in North American sports bars like the Football Factory in NYC, and I often find the passion the locals show for their European favorites a bit comical. You've got plenty of people shouting and screaming at TV screens when teams like Chelsea or Barcelona play, and I bet many of them have never even been to London or Catalonia. But at least American ManU and Liverpool fans usually speak fluent English unlike their Finnish counterparts. The Finns' Premier League fandom looks even more ludicrous when they sing about George Best in broken English:



There is a term for this activity. It's called "barstooling". From the urban dictionary:

Barstooler : Noun (bar' stool- er)

Sports
1) A person who claims to be a passionate follower of a sports team, even though their active support is confined solely to the TV screen of a public house or bar.
2) A variation on the theme of 'armchair supporter'.
3) Commonly found throughout Ireland, usually associated with certain English and Scottish teams, and almost always in possession of a Sky viewing card.

Could MLS teams eventually grab their loyalties and become relevant? The potential has been there for decades. That's more of a negative than a positive.

The MLS already has a better fan culture than the NHL. They've got actual fan sections instead of just the occasional "let's go xxxxx" and "referees suck" chants. I've seen some MLS games live and noticed that a few hundred Toronto FC or New York Red Bulls fans with their songs and chants can easily create an atmosphere that's better than your average NHL game.

 

[Lepardi]

But it's not it's only used by that term by two sets of people Euro Snobs that don't tend to be the most knowledgeable well rounded soccer fan and and people who are anti soccer because they have a gate keeper mentality and see it as a threat to whatever sport or league they like.

Good points. A league that can attract players like Zlatan, Wayne Rooney, Andrea Pirlo and David Villa when they aren't even that far past their primes can't be called awfully small.

 

[Lepardi]

Could it over take the NHL? Possibly. But, IMO, the one thing that is holding it back is that it is not, nor ever will be, the #1 soccer league in the world. Americans, and a large number of Canadians, only tend to care about the biggest league in their respective sport. Something that the NHL, NBA, MLB, and NFL all are.

What is the biggest soccer league in the world?

Nobody is dismissing it as the same old, same old. They're dismissing it as ever catching up to MLB, NBA, NFL or NHL. Those are the best leagues in their sport in the world. The MLS is like 10th in their sport and that makes it almost impossible to pass the best leagues in another sport in terms of popularity.

What if the MLS becomes the 5th best soccer league in the world? Would it still be impossible to pass the number one league of a small sport like hockey?

2. Even more critically: soccer should be a cheap sport to run. Literally, you need a ball and a goal and a pair of shoes.

Is even the goal really that necessary? Little boys in the park, jumpers for goalposts...marvellous.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

From the perspective of a person whose country has never even made it to the European Championships, saying that USA is "generally very bad" in soccer doesn't sound completely right. They've made it to the knockout stage in four of the last seven World Cups, and even reached the quarterfinals in 2002.

For the amount of money invested in all forms of American soccer over the past 20 years, the USA is generally very bad. Finland is in Europe, which is traditionally the hardest region to qualify from. Failing to qualify for the World Cup and regularly losing to Caribbean island nations is very bad. And reaching the quarterfinals in 2002 isn't something bragging worthy. Turkey made the semifinals that same World Cup, you would hardly consider them to be a powerhouse. Most accomplishments more than 10 years old are considered irrelevant on modern status.

Attending your local team's games and supporting that team has nothing to do with "not knowing better". I know full well that the Finnish hockey league is garbage compared to the NHL and the Finnish soccer league is utter garbage compared to the UEFA Champions League.

I've been to watch some Premier League and UEFA Champions League matches in North American sports bars like the Football Factory in NYC, and I often find the passion the locals show for their European favorites a bit comical.

MLS is attracting the minor league baseball crowd. People are going to games because they're affordable, it's fun for the family, half the people don't know the score of the game. They don't follow the teams like they follow their European favorites, despite most of them never seeing those games in person. This supports my point that the MLS is pretty irrelevant in comparison to the MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA. People in their markets are cheering for teams that aren't even on the same continent.

The MLS already has a better fan culture than the NHL. They've got actual fan sections instead of just the occasional "let's go xxxxx" and "referees suck" chants. I've seen some MLS games live and noticed that a few hundred Toronto FC or New York Red Bulls fans with their songs and chants can easily create an atmosphere that's better than your average NHL game.

Ultras and everything they do is ingrained into soccer. Other sports don't do that in North America. There's some decent fan culture, Nashville has the goalie chant after each goal, Winnipeg is pretty vicious, Montreal gets very loud. If you went to a NHL game and did half the stuff that Ultras did, you'd get kicked out of the game. Lighting flares, disrupting the game, the occasional racist chant, open and well publicized support for political extremism, running onto the field and attacking a player, and the other things that European ultras regularly do wouldn't be put up with and isn't part of the culture of the sport in North America. It's a completely unfair comparison.