OT: MLS closing in on NFL, NBA, MLB in U.S. - Landon Donovan

[Lepardi]

5. The world cup 2026 will be in North America and it's going to be another stepping stone to develop football/soccer interest in North America.

It'll be great to finally have the World Cup in a place worth visiting. The 2026 tournament will be the first time that happens since 2006. Euro 2020 and Euro 2024 will also be nice travel destinations but the World Cup in 2022 is a definite no go.

 

[Lepardi]

MLS is attracting the minor league baseball crowd. People are going to games because they're affordable, it's fun for the family, half the people don't know the score of the game. They don't follow the teams like they follow their European favorites, despite most of them never seeing those games in person.

I've been to plenty of NHL games in North America, and I've noticed that most people attending those games don't understand much about hockey. Generally speaking people here in Tampere, Finland have a better understanding of what's happening on the ice than people in places like Boston, Chicago, New York, New Jersey, Washington and Philly, even though there are a lot of clueless homer fans here too.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I've been to plenty of NHL games in North America, and I've noticed that most people attending those games don't understand much about hockey.

In non-traditional hockey areas, there's a lot of people like that. For people who live in markets where there's no snow, it's not part of the culture. This isn't Finland. Every single market in Liiga has had hockey since the 50s and 60s, with many going back to the 20s and 30s. I think the youngest team is Pelicans, who started in the 90s, but Lahti still has had pro hockey going back to World War II. America's oldest non-traditional market is LA, who started in '67. In the NHL, many of the markets have only had exposure to hockey for two or three decades. Of course there's people who can't tell the difference between a hockey puck and a doorknob. Not every team is going to have the hockey-heavy fanbases that Montreal, Toronto, Minnesota, Vancouver, Edmonton and the other northern ones have.

 

[Lepardi]

In non-traditional hockey areas, there's a lot of people like that. For people who live in markets where there's no snow, it's not part of the culture. This isn't Finland. Every single market in Liiga has had hockey since the 50s and 60s, with many going back to the 20s and 30s. I think the youngest team is Pelicans, who started in the 90s, but Lahti still has had pro hockey going back to World War II. America's oldest non-traditional market is LA, who started in '67. In the NHL, many of the markets have only had exposure to hockey for two or three decades. Of course there's people who can't tell the difference between a hockey puck and a doorknob. Not every team is going to have the hockey-heavy fanbases that Montreal, Toronto, Minnesota, Vancouver, Edmonton and the other northern ones have.

Good points, but I also have to comment on some of them. I've actually never been to NHL games in places like Texas, Florida, or California. I bet the fans there are less knowledgeable than the fans in cities I've visited (New York, Chicago, Boston, etc.). The Rangers, Blackhawks and Bruins had all already been established when engineer Yrjö Salminen dropped a bunch of hockey sticks he'd brought from England on the ice of Lake Pyhäjärvi in December 1926 here in Tampere and uttered his legendary words "pelakkaa, pojat", which would translate roughly as "game on, boys". That is considered to be the starting point of Finnish hockey.

I'm also fairly certain that Lahti didn't have pro hockey shortly after World War 2. Even the best teams in Finland couldn't be called professional before the 1980s. There were certainly a lot of brown envelopes changing hands, but Finnish Elite League players also had to work real jobs in the 1970s and largely in the 1980s too.

There's some decent fan culture, Nashville has the goalie chant after each goal, Winnipeg is pretty vicious, Montreal gets very loud. If you went to a NHL game and did half the stuff that Ultras did, you'd get kicked out of the game. Lighting flares, disrupting the game, the occasional racist chant, open and well publicized support for political extremism, running onto the field and attacking a player, and the other things that European ultras regularly do wouldn't be put up with and isn't part of the culture of the sport in North America. It's a completely unfair comparison.

I think fan sections can also create a great atmosphere without all the unnecessary violence, racism, etc, or at least without excessive amounts of all those negative aspects. I have actually seen small soccer-style fan groups in NHL games too. The last time that happened was in Barclays Center a month ago. They had a few dozen fans chanting and singing in the upper corner. We've got those soccer-style fan sections at hockey games here in Europe, especially in places like Sweden and Germany. If they had a couple of hundred people singing for the Islanders instead of a few dozen, that would do wonders to the atmosphere. This is what the playoffs look like in the Swedish hockey league:



But I also have to give credit where credit is due. At said Islanders game there were 300 people in one section rooting for the referees, wearing black-and-white striped jerseys. They cheered loudly whenever there was an offside, icing, or a penalty against the visiting team. I thought it was hilarious, and I've never seen anything like it in Europe.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I'm also fairly certain that Lahti didn't have pro hockey shortly after World War 2. Even the best teams in Finland couldn't be called professional before the 1980s. There were certainly a lot of brown envelopes changing hands, but Finnish Elite League players also had to work real jobs in the 1970s and largely in the 1980s too.

Lahdin Reipas played in the SM-sarja after relocating from Vyborg, which was taken by the Soviets. I'm not incredibly familiar with Finnish hockey, but while it may not have been pro or real high level, it was hockey. That's more than double the sport exposure than half of the markets in the NHL have had. It's a massive difference in building a fanbase.

The Rangers, Blackhawks and Bruins had all already been established when engineer Yrjö Salminen dropped a bunch of hockey sticks he'd brought from England on the ice of Lake Pyhäjärvi in December 1926 here in Tampere and uttered his legendary words "pelakkaa, pojat", which would translate roughly as "game on, boys". That is considered the starting point of Finnish hockey.

The Bruins were founded 2 years prior and the Rangers and Blackhawks were founded in that year and the NHL was just getting started. That's more or less historically simultaneous.

Good points, but I also have to comment on some of them. I've actually never been to NHL games in places like Texas, Florida, or California. I bet the fans there are less knowledgeable than the fans in cities I've visited (New York, Chicago, Boston, etc.).

It's fun buying $15 tickets and walking into the arena in flip flops surrounded by scantily clad girls. But, I live near Boston. Bruins tickets are passed down the generations like Red Sox tickets, a huge portion of the population plays organized hockey and even more people follow it. The sport is big enough that there's 4 college teams within a few miles of TD Garden that all draw very well, too. It certainly draws more people than the warmer weather cities.

I think fan sections can also create a great atmosphere without all the unnecessary violence, racism, etc, or at least without excessive amounts of all those negative aspects. I have actually seen small soccer-style fan groups in NHL games too. The last time that happened was in Barclays Center a month ago. They had a few dozen fans chanting and singing in the upper corner. We've got those soccer-style fan sections at hockey games here in Europe, especially in places like Sweden and Germany. If they had a couple of hundred people singing for the Islanders instead of a few dozen, that would do wonders to the atmosphere. This is what the playoffs look like in the Swedish hockey league:

Nassau Coliseum during the Tavares return was insane. Bruins-Canadiens games are always intense. But, American sports fans are overwhelmingly much more calm than our European counterpart. Intensity increases with the fewer games played. NFL fans have 16 games and get crazier than baseball fans who are borderline comatose throughout their 162 game season. It's hard to get up for 82 NHL games, I think the liiga still plays around a 50 game season?

 

[End on a Hinote]

What is the biggest soccer league in the world?

Premier League as far as revenue

 

[Hoek]

The Lightning have an unofficial supporters section with a group that chants all game as well. I like it but a lot of the older crowd don't.

 

[Lepardi]

The Lightning have an unofficial supporters section with a group that chants all game as well. I like it but a lot of the older crowd don't.

Do you remember some of the comments the olders folks have made about those supporters? Why don't they like it? Does it distract them from the highly interesting hot dog, pizza, taco, doughnut, KFC, and insurance advertisements that are so ubiquitous in North American sports leagues?

I've personally never been in one of those fan sections, because I already felt too old for that stuff when my favorite team's home games started to get some of that European vibe about a decade ago. Back when I was a child and still cared enough to make noise at hockey games, we also just had the occasional short, boring chant. But even though I'm never gonna join one of those supporters' groups myself, I think they're a great addition to the game experience when there are hundreds of them singing in the corner. And when there are thousands of them in both ends singing and chanting throughout the game like in the Stockholm soccer derby we went to see in 2012, it's pretty darn impressive. We don't really care about the Swedish soccer league (it's about #20 in Europe) and didn't know any of the players except for the one Finn on the pitch, but we traveled to Stockholm to see the amazing atmosphere we'd read about and seen some videos of online. It certainly didn't disappoint. My friends still agree that it was by far the best atmosphere any of us have ever witnessed at a sporting event, and we've traveled a lot seeing hockey, soccer, and basketball games across Europe and in North America. We even saw our first NFL game at the Soldier Field last November.

To make this more on-topic, I hope the example of the MLS will bring more of that fan culture into other North American sports too. Now that Seattle is getting an NHL team, it might be a very interesting place to visit for us who like to watch hockey, soccer, and the NFL (sadly Lauri Markkanen won't be playing there anytime soon). I've seen some videos of Seattle Sounders matches on YouTube, and it seems like they have a very large and vocal following.

 

[Hoek]

Do you remember some of the comments the olders folks have made about those supporters? Why don't they like it? Does it distract them from the highly interesting hot dog, pizza, taco, doughnut, KFC, and insurance advertisements that are so ubiquitous in North American sports leagues?

Hahah I know right? The comment is just that they're annoying and "this isn't soccer." I will say I wish they would come up with some new chants. They've been doing the same handful for 3 years now. "I believe that we will win" is getting old.

 

[rojac]

To me, supporter groups with their chants and dances are trying to make themselves the show. It’s part of what makes me think of fans as more parasites than patrons.

I go to a hockey game to watch hockey. If I wanted to sing and dance, I’d do community theatre.

 

[Hoek]

It's not about the fans trying to take the spotlight or ignoring the game. The fans goal is to spur on the team. What makes a bigger impression on the players, a boring, uncreative "Let's go ____" which is entirely orchestrated by a jumbotron, or a song that the fans took time to create and practice that says something specific to the team? I know the Bolts have specifically called out the Sticks of Fire a few times when talking about playing at home crediting them for the atmosphere.

 

[adsfan]

That's simply not true the TV ratings have grown each yr since 2013 its went from 185k to 276k in that time frame. They will most likely get 3-4x more in their next TV deal they're doing ok viable on TV. I'm not sure why that is still a thing maybe old assumptions idk.

View attachment 188727

That is interesting. The Milwaukee Brewers averaged 48,000 households viewing per game, which is 4th highest in MLB for 2018. I don't know if they broadcast all 162 games. If they do, that would make 7.78 million viewers in a season for them alone.

MLS has 24 teams, on their way to 28, so their viewership isn't that great. They have hope for the future, but baseball isn't going away. I still attend 3 or 4 Brewers games a season. I used to go to 5 or 6. I know people with 10 packs, but I don't know many STHs. It has been more expensive since Miller Park opened. You could sit in the upper deck behind home plate at County Stadium for $9 and call the balls and strikes.

 

[Lepardi]

Hahah I know right? The comment is just that they're annoying and "this isn't soccer."

They should go to a hockey game in Germany. I've personally talked to Finnish hockey players like Ville Koistinen and Sinuhe Wallinheimo who have traveled quite a lot playing professional hockey in different countries. Koistinen even got to play 103 NHL games. Both of them said that the atmosphere in Germany was by far the best they've ever gotten to experience as players.

 

[Coinneach]

Major league.

 

[Hoek]

Okay so one team plays in a baseball stadium. That's only because building a stadium in NYC is a massive pain in the ass, just ask the Islanders. The Red Bulls resorted to building in NJ and never hear the end of it.

 

[rojac]

It's not about the fans trying to take the spotlight or ignoring the game. The fans goal is to spur on the team. What makes a bigger impression on the players, a boring, uncreative "Let's go ____" which is entirely orchestrated by a jumbotron, or a song that the fans took time to create and practice that says something specific to the team? I know the Bolts have specifically called out the Sticks of Fire a few times when talking about playing at home crediting them for the atmosphere.

You know, I’ve always assumed that players are simply trained to say that for business purposes. Given that team home and away records are often close, just how much impact does the crowd really have? Also, if a player is being paid millions, they shouldn’t need a cheering crowd to competently play a game.

It always seems to me that fans are always looking for ways to feel important and of course, teams and players are going to encourage that because it usually puts more money in their pockets.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Okay so one team plays in a baseball stadium. That's only because building a stadium in NYC is a massive pain in the ass, just ask the Islanders. The Red Bulls resorted to building in NJ and never hear the end of it.

The bigger issue with Red Bulls is 1) They spend virtually 0 on marketing, and 2) They are named after a freaking energy drink.

Yea they play in NJ but its accessible via public transit so I don't think honestly, that is a big hurdle to overcome. Still a hurdle, though.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

The bigger issue with Red Bulls is 1) They spend virtually 0 on marketing, and 2) They are named after a freaking energy drink.

Yea they play in NJ but its accessible via public transit so I don't think honestly, that is a big hurdle to overcome. Still a hurdle, though.

I went to NJ to watch Red Bull play. The location is shit. A team with his own stadium in Manhattan would be amazing but also almost impossible due to the real estate cost and lack of vacant field.

 

[Lepardi]

To me, supporter groups with their chants and dances are trying to make themselves the show. It’s part of what makes me think of fans as more parasites than patrons.

I go to a hockey game to watch hockey. If I wanted to sing and dance, I’d do community theatre.

I'm fairly certain you'd feel a little bit different about this if you got to attend a game like the AIK-Djurgården derby in Stockholm. This video is from a soccer game, but the same fans also support the same teams in hockey. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single person on the sidelines (where they usually don't take part in the singing) who doesn't like the atmosphere the fan sections are creating. I know me and my friends went to this match all the way from Finland to witness the massive fan sections first-hand, and we don't regret making the trip one bit. There are quite a few Finns who fly or take the ferry to Sweden for the same reason:

You know, I’ve always assumed that players are simply trained to say that for business purposes. Given that team home and away records are often close, just how much impact does the crowd really have?

From 2011 to 2016 home teams won 54.5 percent of the games in the NHL. 54.5 vs. 45.5 is a siginificant difference.

 

[Lepardi]

I will say I wish they would come up with some new chants.

I can say the same thing about my hometown team. The same fans have been singing the same songs at both hockey and soccer matches for years now. They could learn something from the British fans, whose chants are often quite humorous, as can be seen in this video:



I don't know how well stuff like this would fly in the politically correct American atmosphere though. I have to confess I laughed at 03:20 when they sang this to Park Ji-Sung who's from South Korea:

Park, Park, wherever you may be,
You eat dogs in your home country,
It could be worse, You could be scouse,
Eating rats in your council house...

Maybe Rangers fans for instance could sing something of similar nature to their western rivals from the Garden State.

It always seems to me that fans are always looking for ways to feel important and of course, teams and players are going to encourage that because it usually puts more money in their pockets.

A great fan section will also attract spectators who aren't going to take part in all the chanting and singing, cause it enhances the game experience. That does help the team financially, which enables them to acquire better players. The problem is that the most vocal fans often also engage in mindless violence, which in turn can keep people away from the games. But I've seen some fights between fans in North America too in games where they didn't have supporters' sections. The fact that the fans of both teams sit in the same sections with each other can also help in fights breaking out. When you buy tickets to Premier League matches for instance, you are told before completing your purchase that you are not allowed to sport the visiting team's colors unless you're purchasing a ticket in the part of the stadium allocated to their fans.

 

[rojac]

I'm fairly certain you'd feel a little bit different about this if you got to attend a game like the AIK-Djurgården derby in Stockholm. This video is from a soccer game, but the same fans also support the same teams in hockey. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single person on the sidelines (where they usually don't take part in the singing) who doesn't like the atmosphere the fan sections are creating. I know me and my friends went to this match all the way from Finland to witness the massive fan sections first-hand, and we don't regret making the trip one bit. There are quite a few Finns who fly or take the ferry to Sweden for the same reason:

<<<Video removed>>>

It's annoying on video. I can only imagine it's even more annoying in person.

I go to a sporting event to watch the game. I'm paying for the players, not the crowd, to entertain me. I don't mind organic excitement and noise that develops from the action of the game. Songs and chants feel forced.

For example, as a teenager in 1977, I was at Yankee Stadium on a Sunday afternoon to see Goose Gossage enter the game in the ninth with the tying run on base and no one out and proceed to strike the side. It was a packed house and as the strikes mounted, the crowd began chanting "Goose! Goose! Goose!" and the energy just build. But it was organic -- it wasn't Gossage coming into the game and some supporter section starting a chant. It was built from the energy we the crowd were feeling as Gossage's performance built.

From 2011 to 2016 home teams won 54.5 percent of the games in the NHL. 54.5 vs. 45.5 is a siginificant difference.

Fair enough. But I do have to wonder how much of that is because of the crowd and how much is from sleeping at home, not traveling, etc.

 

[rojac]

I can say the same thing about my hometown team. The same fans have been singing the same songs at both hockey and soccer matches for years now. They could learn something from the British fans, whose chants are often quite humorous, as can be seen in this video:



I don't know how well stuff like this would fly in the politically correct American atmosphere though. I have to confess I laughed at 03:20 when they sang this to Park Ji-Sung who's from South Korea:

Park, Park, wherever you may be,
You eat dogs in your home country,
It could be worse, You could be scouse,
Eating rats in your council house...

Maybe Rangers fans for instance could sing something of similar nature to their western rivals from the Garden State.

To be honest, that just seems stupid and childish. I'd be embarrassed to hear fans of my team chant/sing something like that.

A great fan section will also attract spectators who aren't going to take part in all the chanting and singing, cause it enhances the game experience.

Isn't the game experience watching the game? This kind of nonsense would keep me away. It's right up there with vuvuzelas for me.

That does help the team financially, which enables them to acquire better players.

While there will be some fans attracted by it, others will stay away. Only helps if the attracted fans outnumber those driven away.

The problem is that the most vocal fans often also engage in mindless violence, which in turn can keep people away from the games. But I've seen some fights between fans in North America too in games where they didn't have supporters' sections. The fact that the fans of both teams sit in the same sections with each other can also help in fights breaking out. When you buy tickets to Premier League matches for instance, you are told before completing your purchase that you are not allowed to sport the visiting team's colors unless you're purchasing a ticket in the part of the stadium allocated to their fans.

That's a big problem. Everything possible should be done to get rid of idiots who would get in a fist fight over an entertainment product. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Lepardi]

Isn't the game experience watching the game?

If it was only about that, I could just as well just watch the game on TV. The social aspect is a big part of attending sports events, as we are animals too who feel the need to belong to a herd.

 

[DoyleG]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet but the MLS Cup final had more in attendance than the Super Bowl in the same stadium (by about 3K).

Allowing standing room attendance helps.

 

[Bookie21]

I heard from a buddy who was at the home opener in New England and said there was about 1,500 actual people at the game. He said paid attendance was 13,000 lol