OT: OT: Lets Go Cardinals! (All Baseball Talk Here) Part 2

[Xerloris]

I ever tell you guys I hate baseball?

 

[TheDizee]

'We're not looking to blow up this team,' says Mozeliak as trade deadline nears: Cardinals Extra

“But we are looking for ways to improve this team," president of baseball operations adds, meaning they could juggle long-term need with short-term deals.

www.stltoday.com

 

[TheDizee]

Last 15 Starts:

Adam Wainwright:
75.1 IP, 57 ER, 117 H, 6.83 ERA

Steven Matz:
75.1 IP, 47 ER, 90 H, 5.63 ERA

Jack Flaherty:
80 IP, 44 ER, 84 H, 4.95 ERA

Miles Mikolas:
90.1 IP, 39 ER, 98 H, 3.90 ERA

Jordan Montgomery:
85.1 IP, 35 ER, 88 H, 3.69 ERA

Dakota Hudson:
80 IP, 51 ER, 93 H, 5.74 ERA

Matthew Liberatore:
52.2 IP, 32 ER, 61 H, 5.51 ERA (13 GS)

Jake Woodford:
65.1 IP, 35 ER, 77 H, 4.83 ERA (14 GS)

 

[Lord Helix]

Seems like a reasonably unbiased take???

 

[Mike Liut]

Montgomery is going to bring back a nice return from a playoff team

 

[TheDizee]

deleting his twitter was the least of his problem

 

[Xanadude]

Man, what a horrible, horrible year. I knew pinching pennies on pitching would end up biting us, but I didn't think Molina leaving would be that catalyst. If we get decent pitching, hitting goes cold. We hit, pitching falls apart. Get both, the bullpen implodes.

The scary thing is how delusional ownership is...but we're those BFiB packing the stands and the chuckleheads at the top just roll around in our dough. Who cares if we suck, there's 35,000 St. Louisans in attendance for every weekday game!

 

[TheDizee]

Man, what a horrible, horrible year. I knew pinching pennies on pitching would end up biting us, but I didn't think Molina leaving would be that catalyst. If we get decent pitching, hitting goes cold. We hit, pitching falls apart. Get both, the bullpen implodes.

The scary thing is how delusional ownership is...but we're those BFiB packing the stands and the chuckleheads at the top just roll around in our dough. Who cares if we suck, there's 35,000 St. Louisans in attendance for every weekday game!

nothing changes until people stop giving them their money

 

[PJJJP]

Man, what a horrible, horrible year. I knew pinching pennies on pitching would end up biting us, but I didn't think Molina leaving would be that catalyst. If we get decent pitching, hitting goes cold. We hit, pitching falls apart. Get both, the bullpen implodes.

The scary thing is how delusional ownership is...but we're those BFiB packing the stands and the chuckleheads at the top just roll around in our dough. Who cares if we suck, there's 35,000 St. Louisans in attendance for every weekday game!

Yeah we have the 4th most money spent in the league on starting pitching. It's more like the money isn't being spent well and on the right players that's the problem.

 

[TheDizee]

Yeah we have the 4th most money spent in the league on starting pitching. It's more like the money isn't being spent well and on the right players that's the problem.

u mean paying wainwright like 18 million for his age 42 season wasnt a good decision?

 

[Xerloris]

u mean paying wainwright like 18 million for his age 42 season wasnt a good decision?

Who the f*** would ever retire at that price?

 

[BadgersandBlues]

The Cards should trade Goldschmidt and Arenado at this point. Get a haul for both. Build around Gorman/Walker/Wynn for your infield (Gorman goes back to 3rd, Walker moves to 1st [or vice versa], Wynn stays at short) and Nootbar/Carlson for your outfield. That's 5 position players all at 25 or under. Target ace level pitching or Centerfield with these two trades. Get whatever you can for Monty, Flaherty, etc. Look to compete again next year with a nucleus that you believe in. And get some god damn balance to our lineup, I'm sick of seeing five RH hitters in a row.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

The Cards should trade Goldschmidt and Arenado at this point. Get a haul for both. Build around Gorman/Walker/Wynn for your infield (Gorman goes back to 3rd, Walker moves to 1st [or vice versa], Wynn stays at short) and Nootbar/Carlson for your outfield. That's 5 position players all at 25 or under. Target ace level pitching or Centerfield with these two trades. Get whatever you can for Monty, Flaherty, etc. Look to compete again next year with a nucleus that you believe in. And get some god damn balance to our lineup, I'm sick of seeing five RH hitters in a row.

this is what SHOULD happen, so we all know it won’t

 

[Allens Five Hole]

The Cards should trade Goldschmidt and Arenado at this point. Get a haul for both. Build around Gorman/Walker/Wynn for your infield (Gorman goes back to 3rd, Walker moves to 1st [or vice versa], Wynn stays at short) and Nootbar/Carlson for your outfield. That's 5 position players all at 25 or under. Target ace level pitching or Centerfield with these two trades. Get whatever you can for Monty, Flaherty, etc. Look to compete again next year with a nucleus that you believe in. And get some god damn balance to our lineup, I'm sick of seeing five RH hitters in a row.

Winn is not going to be anything special. He is a defense-first short stop with no hitting tool. Gorman is an extremely flawed hitter in the same vein as Max Muncy. He will go on hot streaks but should not be a piece relied upon to build around. Walker is the only one that should be in the "build around" group.

The Cardinals FO have put themselves in a really terrible position. The minor leagues are bare and the major league team has no hope. We've essentially spent the last draft taking college, high floor, low ceiling players to replenish the system that we exhausted trading for Arenado, Goldschmidt, Ozuna and then others like Happ, Lester, Quintana. Even if the trade itself wasn't that "bad" (Happ deal), it still removes minor leaguers from your system. Then, we end up not taking a chance on a high school kid with plus tools because they have to start in rookie ball for 2 years or whatever it ends up being rather than the 22 year old who played SEC ball who can make his way up to AA within a year.

There is so much wrong with how the Cardinals have managed the organization and I suspect its going to take a few lean years to truly build a contender and not just paper over the cracks to sneak into the playoffs.

 

[TheDizee]

this is what SHOULD happen, so we all know it won’t

Mo needs to add a 40year old LHP at the deadline to push us over and into a world series contender.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

Winn is not going to be anything special. He is a defense-first short stop with no hitting tool. Gorman is an extremely flawed hitter in the same vein as Max Muncy. He will go on hot streaks but should not be a piece relied upon to build around. Walker is the only one that should be in the "build around" group.

The Cardinals FO have put themselves in a really terrible position. The minor leagues are bare and the major league team has no hope. We've essentially spent the last draft taking college, high floor, low ceiling players to replenish the system that we exhausted trading for Arenado, Goldschmidt, Ozuna and then others like Happ, Lester, Quintana. Even if the trade itself wasn't that "bad" (Happ deal), it still removes minor leaguers from your system. Then, we end up not taking a chance on a high school kid with plus tools because they have to start in rookie ball for 2 years or whatever it ends up being rather than the 22 year old who played SEC ball who can make his way up to AA within a year.

There is so much wrong with how the Cardinals have managed the organization and I suspect its going to take a few lean years to truly build a contender and not just paper over the cracks to sneak into the playoffs.

There are doomer takes and then there's this.

The farm is bare? We are consistently top 10 in rankings from multiple publications.

Gorman isn't a perfect hitter, duh. Not many are. But he's only 23 and he's putting up a 111 OPS+ this season, that's pretty good. Muncy you say? The guy with a 121 career OPS+ who's been in the top 15 of MVP voting multiple times in his career? If that's Gorman's ceiling I'll take that any day.

Wynn is struggling at the plate, no doubt. But not everyone needs to be the next Elly De La Cruz or Jackson Holliday. Wynn is special defensively and you can carry one guy like that on your team, especially if he plays SS.

Our prospect discussion doesn't take into account the value we're going to get back from Goldschmidt and Arenado. I'm not moving either guy unless we get a consensus top 15 type player as the centerpiece of the deal, Painter from Philly would be my target if we trade Goldy there and then as I said an OF (preferably someone who projects as a 4-5 tool centerfielder who hits left-handed.) Druw Jones might be available since Corbin Carroll looks like the real deal and Arizona is actually good this year. If we can't get someone to bite on either guy with a prospect like that then we just keep our MVP caliber guys and try to reset next year.

We are also going to get a solid return for Monty (He's shaping up to be one of the better pitchers available at the deadline if we decide to sell) and probably at least something for JF.

We are also slated to get a high pick (Top 5) in next years draft as we're legit one of the worst teams in the league, and moving Goldy/Arenado is only going to make us worse in the short term.

In a lot of ways, the Cardinals are mirroring the Blues in terms of picking one of the better years to suck. There are a lot of surprise teams that are succeeding and probably won't be looking to sell, a lot of the guys who everyone thought would be top of the market for trade bait are either struggling or injured, and the teams that really really suck (Oakland/Colorado/Washington etc) have nothing much left to sell, making this more of a sellers market then in previous years.

I think the Cardinals need an organizational reset in many ways. To act like we're the Athletics is a bit much though. The Central is still going to suck again next year, and possibly the year after that. We do have a lot of talent, we just need some f***ing pitching to come through our system and make an impact. Flaherty has been an absolute bummer for the last number of years. It happens. Time to move on and reload.

 

[TheDizee]

they arnt serious about being the class of the NL and havent since january 2014.

keep throwing wainwright out there tho, i mean u paid him all that money might as well take the next 3 months to make sure he gets 2 measly wins in the next 20 starts

 

[The Note]

If there were any doubt this team was cooked, tonight should do it. What a dreadful ball club

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Embarrassing lol

 

[Vladys Gumption]

That was a very fitting way for this team to lose. What a joke

 

[BrokenFace]

Walker deserved to have his 9th inning 2 run homer stand as the game winning moment. Team couldn't deliver though.

 

[Spear]

Cardinals proving they'll do anything to get Skip a win!

Too bad he's not our manager.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

The implosion of this team. Lol

 

[TheDizee]

Cardinals proving they'll do anything to get Skip a win!

Too bad he's not our manager.

bowtie boy and marmol are certainly special

 

[Mike Liut]

Trade all the UFA’s (Monty, Flaherty,Hicks) and Goldy. Really no reason to keep Arenado either.