OT: OT: Lets Go Cardinals! (All Baseball Talk Here) Part 2

BleedBlue14

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Feb 9, 2017
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It's never a good sign when players you bring in don't get any better, and players you trade away 90% of the time reach the hopes that you had had for them that they couldn't in your organization.

I listen to quite a few analytics podcasts etc for baseball, alot have former players within.

In my opinion, once the Luhnow to Astros thing happened and the Cardinals had to forefeit the pick for going into Luhnow's system etc. they put a hold on all analytics development. Which really seems to hold true with alot of things. The Cardinals are years behind in terms of getting with the new times of baseball - internal analytics, ways of digesting all of the information that trackman etc can give and creating their own model, as well as internal development with pitching labs etc.

I'm not sure if it's an ego thing on Mozeliaks end or a stupid blindness that our way has worked for so long that this is how it's done, but regardless there has been an extreme neglect to get with the times that started with pitcher development in the 2016 time frame. If you notice throughout the leagues teams have things they look towards for pitchers . A few examples:

Rays find guys with different arm angles
Yankees developed a bunch of sweeper sinker guys
Red Sox are moving off of 4 seams
A lot around the league added in splitters.

Pitching has evolved at such a high rate since I graduated college and was on the other side of the scale in terms of player vs. observer/fan and it's fascinating to watch. However, our hometown team continually tries to grind with the old instead of getting with the times. There was alot of mention of this over the last 2 years or so so i'm hoping it's a change in the right direction. But in general those systems - per people in that industry - take 4-5 years to get into place a lot of times. It's crazy to me that in Sonny's first few pressers after signing he was talking about a lot of the things the Cardinals didn't have and Mo was "Interested in adding them". In professional sports you can't be almost a decade behind and then only get the ideas and build off of them from a players viewpoint from other organizations. We direly need fresh blood throughout. It's not surprising Jeff Albert didn't last long here. He was a pretty big analytics guy, and he was brought into a prehistoric environment. In general I lean towards supporting the old fashioned line of thinking and can at least somewhat understand the lack of movement - sports isn't all analytics. But whenever you don't have an internal way to digest things and put things into motion to get ahead of the curve, you are never going to be at the curve.

I don't know what to think about the hitters as that's not where my general interest is. But the Cardinals have a fascinatingly great skill of creating the non influential players on the offensive side of the ball - Nootbaar, Burleson, Donovan, Edman etc. the list goes on and on and that's a great thing to have. However, it's troubling that they cannot allow for guys to eclipse that level of mediocrity and honestly struggle making guys better once they get to the major league levels - especially with extreme talents - Gorman, Walker etc. It's not surprising that guys like Arenado and Goldschmidt went out to Driveline a few years ago, but it's also something the franchise needs to support. Unfortunately we are more concerned with growing BPV (which is great) and less concerned about player development and analytics when the game has been going that direction for so long.

Sorry to add on to your rant, just thought I could share some of the things i've picked up as i'm a bit nerdy on that front and love listening to podcasts with guys that have been in front offices analytics and ex players who can explain what these pitching labs and analytics departments bring to franchises.
 

Memento

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Sep 12, 2011
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Yeah, Jeff Albert was a sacrificial lamb for management to blame. Turns out he knew what he was doing: Texas won a WS with him as the hitting coach. I disagree on analytics: a lot of the teams that have had a record of success have gone mostly analytical. Atlanta, Tampa (especially) L.A. Dodgers, Cleveland (especially), Minnesota, Baltimore, Milwaukee, etc., have all been heavily analytical. Honestly, Houston may be the only exception, and we all know what went on with their "analytics".

But yeah, pitching-wise, we haven't looked at anything more than control/pitch-to-contact, and we certainly haven't been analytical when it comes to the pitchers we've looked at. As for hitters, all of them- save for Winn and Burleson - have been awful this year from the major leagues down. That doesn't happen unless there's a fundamental problem in hitting philosophy. Part of it may be age and injury, but there's no excuse for every single hitter save for a few to suddenly get worse. If it was just Goldschmidt, Gorman, Walker, Arenado, etc., I could justify it, but everyone from Saggese (who tore up AAA last year) and Scott (who should've never been promoted directly to the Majors from Double-A), to Bernal, Cho, and basically all of our hitters in the minors all became much worse. That's scary when it comes to developing hitters, and it doesn't happen unless there's a fundamental problem within the whole of the organization.

It's why I'm so adamant about us changing to move with the times, pick different people from various successful organizations to help with the Cardinals, whether they're coaches, GMs, scouts, etc., because our current course is set for failure. Doing the things we're doing right now over and over again while expecting different results is insanity. Doing them over and over while expecting different results and refusing to fix it so that it's right is arrogance to the extreme.
 

MissouriMook

Still just a Mook among men
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Head of the snake is the DeWitt family.

Mozeliak is just following orders.
This. It has been painfully obvious to me that Mo has been directed to do the bare minimum while keeping up appearances as long as the crowds were still filing in. His comment a couple of years back about being a 90 win team if everything goes right (spoiler: it never does) was where they lost me. This franchise used to be about winning championships. Now it’s about squeaking into a wild card spot.
 

BadgersandBlues

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Jun 6, 2011
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The shifting philosophy from trying to win actual championships to barely treading water is obvious. Even baseball media makes fun of the Cardinals - they basically all say, yea, every year they go in looking to win around 4-5 game above .500, squeak into a wild card, then get their doors blown off in round 1 to a real playoff team. No one takes us seriously as contenders anymore, they probably haven't for 5ish years.
 
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BleedBlue14

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The shifting philosophy from trying to win actual championships to barely treading water is obvious. Even baseball media makes fun of the Cardinals - they basically all say, yea, every year they go in looking to win around 4-5 game above .500, squeak into a wild card, then get their doors blown off in round 1 to a real playoff team. No one takes us seriously as contenders anymore, they probably haven't for 5ish years.

I personally agree with this. But a lot of the sentiment around the league through analysis is that you are best suited to approach each season with trying to get to 90 wins.

The infuriating part about the way the Cardinals do it is they are so good at rounding at a roster yet overspend make really bad decisions on who to bring in and who to allocate the money to. This has gotten a bit better chasing Sonny and Willson but in general we always pay a premium for the 3rd tier of guys and then somehow end up with a surplus of Major League talent and think well if something doesn’t work out we can trade for it in season.

The issue with that is we seem to have complete PTSD in terms of moving prospect to address the needs that are generally at the top of our lineup. And we seem to be absolutely terrible at developing stars. If both things are true you cannot be a true contender in the eyes of many without a little luck.
 

TheDizee

Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
Apr 5, 2014
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Cards are going to bring in Madden and let him run the show.
He should have been the manager from his days with TB after the Cards decided to pass on Oquendo. He grew up a massive Cardinals fan, talked about Mike Shannon and so much more in a interview I saw years ago. Would listen to KMOX on his radio.

Cardinals are fools for letting this moron Marmol still manage the team. It's no surprise that the team is a dumpster fire without Yadi or Oquendo involved.

This team is a product of Bowtie boy but Marmol does no favors with his pee wee managing. Joe Maddon or Jose Oquendo should be the manager once we get rid of Bowtie boy.
 

Memento

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Cards are going to bring in Madden and let him run the show.

Would it even matter who we brought in if a front office led by Mozeliak or Girsch hamstrung Maddon or anyone else?

The entire thing needs to be stripped to the bare bones, from the absolute top (Mozeliak, to Girsch, to our professional scouts, to Marmol and the entire coaching staff) down and replaced with people who are not affiliated with this team. We need new ideas, new innovations, a whole new philosophy about pitching and hitting and having the people to stick with it.

I don't entirely blame the DeWitt family; fate knows we could easily have someone like Marge Schott calling the shots, and I'm pretty sure none of us want a reincarnation of her running or potentially moving this team. They're at least willing to spend on free agency and our own contracts: they just have all - Sonny Gray aside, and even that is quickly becoming a question - been the wrong move for us.

The first step that they must do, though, is admit that they've done the wrong thing for the wrong reasons from the right mindset. Arrogance is earned, and we haven't earned it in over a decade. It's time for everyone in the organization to humble themselves. They need to realize that past glories don't mean shit in a new century; that while we have a proud history to live up to, we can't keep on our current path; that our old way needs to be put down; that we must move with the times, continuing to innovate, to embrace the newest philosophies to be the best version of our team; to not just be satisfied with squeaking into the playoffs and getting bounced immediately, but to challenge all of the top teams; to not give a shit about sentimentality if it's hurting the team.

But until all of those things happen, they do not deserve my attention over the three other sports teams I follow that have done - and are still doing - the things I mentioned that the Cardinals need to do.

So, TL;DR: Cardinals need to entirely clean house and find the best minds from the best teams, no matter what the philosophy of "The Cardinal Way" stands for.
 
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tfriede2

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Would it even matter who we brought in if a front office led by Mozeliak or Girsch hamstrung Maddon or anyone else?

The entire thing needs to be stripped to the bare bones, from the absolute top (Mozeliak, to Girsch, to our professional scouts, to Marmol and the entire coaching staff) down and replaced with people who are not affiliated with this team. We need new ideas, new innovations, a whole new philosophy about pitching and hitting and having the people to stick with it.

I don't entirely blame the DeWitt family; fate knows we could easily have someone like Marge Schott calling the shots, and I'm pretty sure none of us want a reincarnation of her running or potentially moving this team. They're at least willing to spend on free agency and our own contracts: they just have all - Sonny Gray aside, and even that is quickly becoming a question - been the wrong move for us.

The first step that they must do, though, is admit that they've done the wrong thing for the wrong reasons from the right mindset. Arrogance is earned, and we haven't earned it in over a decade. It's time for everyone in the organization to humble themselves. They need to realize that past glories don't mean shit in a new century; that while we have a proud history to live up to, we can't keep on our current path; that our old way needs to be put down; that we must move with the times, continuing to innovate, to embrace the newest philosophies to be the best version of our team; to not just be satisfied with squeaking into the playoffs and getting bounced immediately, but to challenge all of the top teams; to not give a shit about sentimentality if it's hurting the team.

But until all of those things happen, they do not deserve my attention over the three other sports teams I follow that have done - and are still doing - the things I mentioned that the Cardinals need to do.

So, TL;DR: Cardinals need to entirely clean house and find the best minds from the best teams, no matter what the philosophy of "The Cardinal Way" stands for.
“The Cardinal[s have lost their] Way” - I hope people bring signs to home games saying that
 

Stelmacki

Registered User
May 2, 2017
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The saddest part about the Cardinals is that, if they finally learn how to start developing good players, they are still about 2-3 years away from getting into a position where you can start being hopeful for the future.
 

BleedBlue14

UrGeNcY
Feb 9, 2017
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Back to back smallest non-Covid crowds in the stadium’s history. Everyone who’s been clamoring for people to stay away has gotten their wish.

I have a hard time choosing a side on the argument of not going to show that you don't support the team. One one side, yeah it's certainly a way to get the point across.

On the other hand, what are the repercussions or cuts that the team will have to make to compensate for the ticket sales being down? It's really hard telling if the DeWitt group will go the route of cutting spending or will go with the belief that if they invest more, more people will come.
 

SirPaste

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I have a hard time choosing a side on the argument of not going to show that you don't support the team. One one side, yeah it's certainly a way to get the point across.

On the other hand, what are the repercussions or cuts that the team will have to make to compensate for the ticket sales being down? It's really hard telling if the DeWitt group will go the route of cutting spending or will go with the belief that if they invest more, more people will come.
With all the investment in BPV and the surrounding area they need people to be down there and spending money. I have a hard time believing they will cut spending due to the poor attendance this year but I have been wrong before. Also, if the reports are true and they are about to ask the taxpayers to help pay for the stadium renovations they probably know they are going to need the goodwill of the fans. I am hoping they are starting to understand that what they are doing isn't working, if they haven't figured it out yet the future doesn't look good because I doubt they ever will. The fans are beyond frustrated and to be put simply they simply can't continue on with Mo in charge, the fanbase is done with him.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Oct 24, 2006
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I have a hard time choosing a side on the argument of not going to show that you don't support the team. One one side, yeah it's certainly a way to get the point across.

On the other hand, what are the repercussions or cuts that the team will have to make to compensate for the ticket sales being down? It's really hard telling if the DeWitt group will go the route of cutting spending or will go with the belief that if they invest more, more people will come.
They'd probably increase spending a little bit, but they would exponentially pump up the hype machine.
 
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Mike Liut

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We better hope Matthews - Hence - Hjerpe are the second coming of Maddux - Glavine - Smoltz or it’s going to be a long decade equivalent to the 70’s
 

tfriede2

Registered User
Aug 8, 2010
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Management, coaches, and upper management need to be gutted. Don’t see that happening, though.
 
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