OT: OT: Lets Go Cardinals! (All Baseball Talk Here) Part 2
- Thread starter simon IC
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joe galiba
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- Apr 16, 2020
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bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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He's not a terrible target, was just wishing for a bit more. He has bad defense, but like you said, he does still crush LHP.
- Jul 4, 2014
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I’ll laugh my ass off if they turn him into a right handed hitter.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
Not gonna lie that was probably my favorite moment from this season, just awesome, especially how pumped the dugout was. We gotta keep these good vibes flowing
He will hit .250 with 25 bombs next year for sure
ChicagoBlues
Terraformers
- Oct 24, 2006
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And D. Carlson went 0-3 with 1 k in his Rays debut. Gorman is another one who is broken.
Siani seems to be coming on, though.
Is f*** Face still the Manager?
TheDizee
Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
- Apr 5, 2014
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Bobby Orrtuzzo
Ya know
542365
2018-19 Cup Champs!
- Mar 22, 2012
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Wetherholt has hit into a ton of bad luck and still sports a .406 OBP. He should be in Peoria shortly. Every ball he hits is triple digit exit velocity.
Bobby Orrtuzzo
Ya know
- Feb 12, 2008
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I’ve been watching his highlights, very impressed. He’s a much, much better version of Donovan and Edman.
Brewers finally get their 1982 World Series trophy, as former clubhouse attendant Zito brings them the Stanley Cup: https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/panthers-gm-...tanley-cup-to-american-family-field-1.2162293
TheDizee
Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
- Apr 5, 2014
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People need to stay away from the ballpark and watch something else on TV. Only way this management will make changes to Bowtie boy.
Hopefully. They need to lean into the tank because a better draft position is the only thing they can salvage from this season.
Do you think it's at all possible for us to be contenders while only addressing a portion of our needs in the offseason and not spending very much money? Asking for a DeWitt.
Yes. Let Goldschmidt walk, do not collect the options on Gibson and Lynn. Find a true number one pitcher, and maybe start sending supermodels covered in contracts and condoms to Roki Sasakis house
joe galiba
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I am going AND turning all 3 televisions on so they get credit for the viewership too
bleedblue1223
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Mathews is killing it at AA. He had 1 rough start in July, but in August, he has a 0.50 ERA with 28 K's in 18 innings, and a 0.67 WHIP. Hence seems to be on a strict inning/pitch count, but Mathews feels like he could push for a spot sooner than later.
Memento
Future Authoress.
From the other thread, @BleedBlue14 :
Mozeliak, Marmol, the whole coaching staff, and everyone in the Cardinals front office (amateur scouting aside) can all gladly get fired, in my opinion, but Dylan Carlson isn't the reason why - or, at the very least, is only a microcosm of the reason why.
Firstly, the organizational philosophy has stagnated. It's old and tired. We used to zag when everyone else zigged, and now everyone else has done the same except for us. We're playing catch-up, reacting to everything, while other, more successful teams been proactive. We've been like this since Oscar Taveras's untimely death (which, honestly still upsets me, given that he should've been a cornerstone of our organization for a very long time), and it's led us into some really atrocious deals that have all but bitten us in the ass. Marcell Ozuna is the absolute most glaring example: it cost us two cost-controlled All-Star pitchers in Zac Gallen and Sandy Alcantara in exchange for some really shit seasons from a domestic abuser, but Jason Heyward wasn't exactly a stellar trade either, even though we really ended up giving up nothing in the grand scheme. It also didn't help that we gave up on Randy Arozarena and Adolis Garcia, although, to be fair on the latter's case, everyone gave up on him except for Texas.
"The Cardinal Way" is a f***ing rotting skeleton of an organizational motto because it is no longer relevant in the best baseball teams. The best baseball teams don't consider re-f***ing-signing Paul Goldschmidt after his atrocious year, and therefore blocking younger, better players from playing for years and years to come (Alec Burleson should be playing first base, and we already have a f***ing right-handed hitting outfielder in Jordan Walker sitting his ass on the bench doing f*** all because management, from the top down, is a f***ing joke that thinks that sitting younger players on the bench instead of letting them play is a good path to development - hint: It. f***ing. Isn't.) - just because he's a "future Hall-of-Famer" (Actually, no, he really isn't.), just because they want those players to retire as Cardinals. It worked with Albert, but guess what? Albert was in the final season of a long career, and was chasing seven-hundred home runs, and he had played all of his best years as a Cardinal, AND he wasn't relied on to be the starter. It didn't work with Molina (who will be a HOFer someday, but was atrocious his final year, even defensively). It didn't work with Wainwright (who picked up a couple of career milestones that still won't get him close to the HOF). We've picked sheer sentimentality over winning the past ten years, and as a sports team that always has to make the hard choices, you cannot have one with the other. Sports teams ALWAYS have to make difficult decisions, and they should NEVER let sentimentality get in the way of those decisions. Sentimentality is for fans only.
Secondly, the professional scouts are obviously getting horrible information guiding them on the players they get. There's absolutely no reason we should've gone into the year with Sonny Gray (who has really fallen off, even though it isn't entirely his fault) and a bunch of old, way-past-their-prime pitchers (Kyle Gibson, Lance Lynn, re-signing Mikolas for yet another year, not jettisoning Matz into the f***ing moon, even though they knew that every one of those pitchers were horribly flawed in some way, well over thirty, and that at least taking a chance on a younger pitcher would've helped more.) for the entirety of a 162-game season. There's no reason we should've signed Contreras, who cannot play a passable catcher and therefore cost us a valuable second round pick that could've helped this team's prospect pool even further for a permanent DH. I have no issues with signing Sonny Gray, but Contreras was inexcusable then - especially the catchers who were dealt and were on the market (Sean Murphy, Gabriel Moreno, Williams Contreras - who is so much better than his brother in Milwaukee that it's not even funny - possibly even Danny Jansen or Alejandro Kirk) at that time - and it's even more inexcusable now. We could've even gone with Ivan Herrera and Andrew Knizner (at the time)/Pedro Pages, and it would've been better than Willson Contreras.
Thirdly (and this is one of the two rants I have about the Carlson trade), the professional scouts don't know when to cut their losses on the players who stagnate. Paul Goldschmidt should've been dealt before this year. Tyler O'Neill should've been dealt right after his career year, long before we dealt him to the Red Sox for two lottery tickets, one of which is gone and the other who will be gone after this year. Dylan Carlson should've been dealt long before his development stagnated - and everyone was saying it even before this year when we dealt him for an ancient sucky relief pitcher. Lars Nootbaar should've been dealt for an elite young catcher (whether that was Murphy or Moreno; there were rumors on him being the main piece for Toronto and Oakland that we balked on - which looks absolutely stupid in both hindsight and back then). Brendan Donovan should've been dealt to Seattle for one of their young pitchers (yes, there were rumors there that the Mariners were interested in Donovan for one of Bryce Miller or Bryan Woo, both of whom would look so much better than all but one of - if not all of - our current starting pitchers). Paul DeJong should've been cut bait on a while back, Tommy Edman last season, possibly even Arenado before this year, the list goes on and f***ing on.
We got f*** all for players that our front office knew had flaws because we were afraid to take any sort of risk that these players might turn out better on another team and hoping and wishing that they'd bounce back. Well, you don't f***ing win a World Series without risk, plain and simple. If you don't believe me, 2011 certainly proved it when we dealt Colby Rasmus for a lot of relief pitchers that helped us win, despite him being a starting center fielder we had developed. One thing's for f***ing sure: if we don't deal Ryan Helsley this offseason, I am going to be pissed. It'll have proved that our front office has learned nothing about cultivating and dealing value when it's most valuable.
Fourthly, we apparently have no f***ing idea how to develop younger players. Conversely to what my dad and some other Cardinals fans believe, I do not think Mike Schildt would make this team better; after all, he's the one who demanded that we deal Arozarena after the smartphone snafu. We simply don't relate to younger players or know how to best streamline their developmental plan. Walker's mismanagement, Scott's mismanagement, basically attempting to bury Burleson and Winn early this year (playing Fermin and Crawford over the latter was horrific mismanagement, and Burleson should've been penciled in early on this year), Thompson and Pallante not being options for starters (over f***ing Mikolas and f***ing Matz, and sadly, I think we send down Pallante - again - for f***ing Matz), and even our hitters in the minors struggled and struggled. Something is very wrong with our development towards younger players. You don't see the same thing with teams like the Orioles, the Dodgers, the Braves, the Rangers, the Guardians, the Rays, the f***ing Brewers, f***ing Pirates, f***ing Reds, hell, most teams that are successful at the moment know how to search for and develop younger talent. And maybe that's part of why "The Cardinal Way" should be buried in the f***ing grave: we have no idea how to develop younger players, and whatever way we're using right now should immediately stop.
And that leads me to my final point: the arrogance of the front office to refuse to do anything but promote from within our own little bubble of people within the organization and expecting new ideas to flourish and flower. Matheny, Schildt, Marmol? All promotions from within. Our entire coaching staff, pretty much? All from within. Mozeliak, Girsch, Moises Rodriguez, Randy Flores, Gary LaRocque? All from within. We hired Chaim Bloom, which is a solid start, but I want someone from a successful organization. I want to pick from the people who built the powerhouses in baseball, the Dodgers, the Rays, the Braves, the Orioles, the Guardians. We're obviously never going to outspend the top teams, so let's outdevelop everyone like we used to. Let's make smart trades, smart re-signings. Let's cut the bullshit that "The Cardinal Way" is the way to go. It clearly isn't right now and hasn't for over a decade.
Firing Mozeliak, Girsch, Marmol, etc., etc. is never going to work if we keep doing the same old f***ups. We fired Matheny and Schildt and nothing changed. We've gone through countless organizational soldiers and nothing's changed. So please, for the love of holy f*** f***ing f***ity f***ing fate, do something different. Do something innovative. Don't be afraid to go outside of the organization for help. f***ing hell knows we're stagnating because of our arrogance in believing that we're the only ones with the right answer.
And...that's all I have for a rant. Right now, I'm in wait-and-see mode. There's absolutely no reason for the Cardinals to be as bad as they have been at almost everything this year. They clearly have talent that they don't know how to use. But I'm not seeing any real changes on the horizon, and if there isn't real change - change completely outside of the organization on all counts and the willingness to embrace that change - I am going to eventually stop paying attention to them entirely and focus more on the Los Angeles Rams, the Blues, the Missouri Tigers: teams that embrace change, even if it comes from outside the organization, even if it comes from unexpected people.
I have literally been a Cardinals fan and a Blues fan since before the day I was born (my mom carried me eight months pregnant to both teams' games), and thirty-three years of life have been good to me as far as sports has gone. But that's honestly how I feel. The Cardinals, like them or not, have expectations to shoulder that they haven't.
Mozeliak, Marmol, the whole coaching staff, and everyone in the Cardinals front office (amateur scouting aside) can all gladly get fired, in my opinion, but Dylan Carlson isn't the reason why - or, at the very least, is only a microcosm of the reason why.
Firstly, the organizational philosophy has stagnated. It's old and tired. We used to zag when everyone else zigged, and now everyone else has done the same except for us. We're playing catch-up, reacting to everything, while other, more successful teams been proactive. We've been like this since Oscar Taveras's untimely death (which, honestly still upsets me, given that he should've been a cornerstone of our organization for a very long time), and it's led us into some really atrocious deals that have all but bitten us in the ass. Marcell Ozuna is the absolute most glaring example: it cost us two cost-controlled All-Star pitchers in Zac Gallen and Sandy Alcantara in exchange for some really shit seasons from a domestic abuser, but Jason Heyward wasn't exactly a stellar trade either, even though we really ended up giving up nothing in the grand scheme. It also didn't help that we gave up on Randy Arozarena and Adolis Garcia, although, to be fair on the latter's case, everyone gave up on him except for Texas.
"The Cardinal Way" is a f***ing rotting skeleton of an organizational motto because it is no longer relevant in the best baseball teams. The best baseball teams don't consider re-f***ing-signing Paul Goldschmidt after his atrocious year, and therefore blocking younger, better players from playing for years and years to come (Alec Burleson should be playing first base, and we already have a f***ing right-handed hitting outfielder in Jordan Walker sitting his ass on the bench doing f*** all because management, from the top down, is a f***ing joke that thinks that sitting younger players on the bench instead of letting them play is a good path to development - hint: It. f***ing. Isn't.) - just because he's a "future Hall-of-Famer" (Actually, no, he really isn't.), just because they want those players to retire as Cardinals. It worked with Albert, but guess what? Albert was in the final season of a long career, and was chasing seven-hundred home runs, and he had played all of his best years as a Cardinal, AND he wasn't relied on to be the starter. It didn't work with Molina (who will be a HOFer someday, but was atrocious his final year, even defensively). It didn't work with Wainwright (who picked up a couple of career milestones that still won't get him close to the HOF). We've picked sheer sentimentality over winning the past ten years, and as a sports team that always has to make the hard choices, you cannot have one with the other. Sports teams ALWAYS have to make difficult decisions, and they should NEVER let sentimentality get in the way of those decisions. Sentimentality is for fans only.
Secondly, the professional scouts are obviously getting horrible information guiding them on the players they get. There's absolutely no reason we should've gone into the year with Sonny Gray (who has really fallen off, even though it isn't entirely his fault) and a bunch of old, way-past-their-prime pitchers (Kyle Gibson, Lance Lynn, re-signing Mikolas for yet another year, not jettisoning Matz into the f***ing moon, even though they knew that every one of those pitchers were horribly flawed in some way, well over thirty, and that at least taking a chance on a younger pitcher would've helped more.) for the entirety of a 162-game season. There's no reason we should've signed Contreras, who cannot play a passable catcher and therefore cost us a valuable second round pick that could've helped this team's prospect pool even further for a permanent DH. I have no issues with signing Sonny Gray, but Contreras was inexcusable then - especially the catchers who were dealt and were on the market (Sean Murphy, Gabriel Moreno, Williams Contreras - who is so much better than his brother in Milwaukee that it's not even funny - possibly even Danny Jansen or Alejandro Kirk) at that time - and it's even more inexcusable now. We could've even gone with Ivan Herrera and Andrew Knizner (at the time)/Pedro Pages, and it would've been better than Willson Contreras.
Thirdly (and this is one of the two rants I have about the Carlson trade), the professional scouts don't know when to cut their losses on the players who stagnate. Paul Goldschmidt should've been dealt before this year. Tyler O'Neill should've been dealt right after his career year, long before we dealt him to the Red Sox for two lottery tickets, one of which is gone and the other who will be gone after this year. Dylan Carlson should've been dealt long before his development stagnated - and everyone was saying it even before this year when we dealt him for an ancient sucky relief pitcher. Lars Nootbaar should've been dealt for an elite young catcher (whether that was Murphy or Moreno; there were rumors on him being the main piece for Toronto and Oakland that we balked on - which looks absolutely stupid in both hindsight and back then). Brendan Donovan should've been dealt to Seattle for one of their young pitchers (yes, there were rumors there that the Mariners were interested in Donovan for one of Bryce Miller or Bryan Woo, both of whom would look so much better than all but one of - if not all of - our current starting pitchers). Paul DeJong should've been cut bait on a while back, Tommy Edman last season, possibly even Arenado before this year, the list goes on and f***ing on.
We got f*** all for players that our front office knew had flaws because we were afraid to take any sort of risk that these players might turn out better on another team and hoping and wishing that they'd bounce back. Well, you don't f***ing win a World Series without risk, plain and simple. If you don't believe me, 2011 certainly proved it when we dealt Colby Rasmus for a lot of relief pitchers that helped us win, despite him being a starting center fielder we had developed. One thing's for f***ing sure: if we don't deal Ryan Helsley this offseason, I am going to be pissed. It'll have proved that our front office has learned nothing about cultivating and dealing value when it's most valuable.
Fourthly, we apparently have no f***ing idea how to develop younger players. Conversely to what my dad and some other Cardinals fans believe, I do not think Mike Schildt would make this team better; after all, he's the one who demanded that we deal Arozarena after the smartphone snafu. We simply don't relate to younger players or know how to best streamline their developmental plan. Walker's mismanagement, Scott's mismanagement, basically attempting to bury Burleson and Winn early this year (playing Fermin and Crawford over the latter was horrific mismanagement, and Burleson should've been penciled in early on this year), Thompson and Pallante not being options for starters (over f***ing Mikolas and f***ing Matz, and sadly, I think we send down Pallante - again - for f***ing Matz), and even our hitters in the minors struggled and struggled. Something is very wrong with our development towards younger players. You don't see the same thing with teams like the Orioles, the Dodgers, the Braves, the Rangers, the Guardians, the Rays, the f***ing Brewers, f***ing Pirates, f***ing Reds, hell, most teams that are successful at the moment know how to search for and develop younger talent. And maybe that's part of why "The Cardinal Way" should be buried in the f***ing grave: we have no idea how to develop younger players, and whatever way we're using right now should immediately stop.
And that leads me to my final point: the arrogance of the front office to refuse to do anything but promote from within our own little bubble of people within the organization and expecting new ideas to flourish and flower. Matheny, Schildt, Marmol? All promotions from within. Our entire coaching staff, pretty much? All from within. Mozeliak, Girsch, Moises Rodriguez, Randy Flores, Gary LaRocque? All from within. We hired Chaim Bloom, which is a solid start, but I want someone from a successful organization. I want to pick from the people who built the powerhouses in baseball, the Dodgers, the Rays, the Braves, the Orioles, the Guardians. We're obviously never going to outspend the top teams, so let's outdevelop everyone like we used to. Let's make smart trades, smart re-signings. Let's cut the bullshit that "The Cardinal Way" is the way to go. It clearly isn't right now and hasn't for over a decade.
Firing Mozeliak, Girsch, Marmol, etc., etc. is never going to work if we keep doing the same old f***ups. We fired Matheny and Schildt and nothing changed. We've gone through countless organizational soldiers and nothing's changed. So please, for the love of holy f*** f***ing f***ity f***ing fate, do something different. Do something innovative. Don't be afraid to go outside of the organization for help. f***ing hell knows we're stagnating because of our arrogance in believing that we're the only ones with the right answer.
And...that's all I have for a rant. Right now, I'm in wait-and-see mode. There's absolutely no reason for the Cardinals to be as bad as they have been at almost everything this year. They clearly have talent that they don't know how to use. But I'm not seeing any real changes on the horizon, and if there isn't real change - change completely outside of the organization on all counts and the willingness to embrace that change - I am going to eventually stop paying attention to them entirely and focus more on the Los Angeles Rams, the Blues, the Missouri Tigers: teams that embrace change, even if it comes from outside the organization, even if it comes from unexpected people.
I have literally been a Cardinals fan and a Blues fan since before the day I was born (my mom carried me eight months pregnant to both teams' games), and thirty-three years of life have been good to me as far as sports has gone. But that's honestly how I feel. The Cardinals, like them or not, have expectations to shoulder that they haven't.
