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Ontario Reign 21-22 Thread 2: Reigndrops keep falling on my head

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Raccoon Jesus said:
Re-read. "over his time here," which covers several groups of linemates and seasons, not just those he was fortunate to have people cover up his issues in small sample sizes.

And no, we already did that homework. Byfield smashes it with everyone but AA. So congrats on doubling down on being wrong. Keep going if you like.

(and all of this is JUST the stats...not the eye test. even I didn't expect them to be as damning as they were but they sure confirm who he is, chaos incarnate with immense skill who can score against the flow of play at times. There are some guys behind him in one stat or two but they play FAR harder matchups...imagine getting softies on a tee and still sucking as hard as AA. you must be his agent to want to fight that hard for a guy getting preferential deployment and still getting rocked consistently over 7 years in the NHL).
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Where are you getting your stats?

I'm not saying that AA is good for Byfield, he's obviously not, he's more like Kryptonite. But he has nowhere near the lowest CF% since he's been here, he's middle of the pack. And he actually has one of the better GF%, as well as one of the better DFF% (which I feel is superior to HDCF/HDCA because it includes both for and against and utilizes Fenwick). He's had a better GF% than Kopitar over the last 2 seasons, if you can believe it. I usually use hockey-reference and puckIQ as I find they have superior stats to other sites. AA also faces higher QOC than about 70% of other forwards.

I don't want to keep the guy, he just doesn't fit what we are trying to accomplish. He's too high event - especially for playing with a rookie, but overall he's in the positive. He's about as controlled as a cyclone. But his numbers haven't been bad at all, they've been above average as far as our forwards go.
 
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bmr said:
I'm blown away how well some of our prospects have done this year in Ontario. Our defense has been especially strong with Durzi, Spence and Grans having amazing years. I have always been a big fan of Fagemo. I think he's a very smart player and has the skill to be in the NHL. He also currently leads the team with a +15 and I has a goal scoring knack if put with the right players.

Vilardi looks to have righted the ship and Turcotte will have his place with the big team.

All this being said - who are you guys okay with trading to get another star player on the Kings? The only guys (right now) that I would say are untouchable for me are Byfield, Clarke and Spence. Everyone else is fair game if the right offer is on the table. Thoughts?
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No one is untradeable, it's a word that is thrown around way to much on every team forum on this site about unproven prospects. This organization in the past traded prospects who are more highly regarded than anyone we have right now and both resulted in bringing in star players from other teams (Mike Richards and Ziggy Palffy). We don't know the situations of the other 31 teams, what if Kyle Connor goes to Kevin Cheveldayoff and says he no longer wants to play in Winnipeg, LA would immediately make a ton of sense, we aren't offering any of the guys you listed to acquire a guy who might score 50 goals this season in his year 24/25 season?

Not saying you trade QB for just any player, but he's clearly not an Evgeni Malkin type player where you immediately hang up should someone dangle a legit game-changing player in his prime.
 
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Herby said:
No one is untradeable, it's a word that is thrown around way to much on every team forum on this site about unproven prospects. This organization in the past traded prospects who are more highly regarded than anyone we have right now and both resulted in bringing in star players from other teams (Mike Richards and Ziggy Palffy). We don't know the situations of the other 31 teams, what if Kyle Connor goes to Kevin Cheveldayoff and says he no longer wants to play in Winnipeg, LA would immediately make a ton of sense, we aren't offering any of the guys you listed to acquire a guy who might score 50 goals this season in his year 24/25 season?

Not saying you trade QB for just any player, but he's clearly not an Evgeni Malkin type player where you immediately hang up should someone dangle a legit game-changing player in his prime.
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This is how I feel as well, It's all about value. I don't expect anyone who I would actually trade Byfield for to become available, but if they did I would pull the trigger. This especially goes for guys who haven't even seen pro ice yet.
 
Herby said:
No one is untradeable, it's a word that is thrown around way to much on every team forum on this site about unproven prospects. This organization in the past traded prospects who are more highly regarded than anyone we have right now and both resulted in bringing in star players from other teams (Mike Richards and Ziggy Palffy). We don't know the situations of the other 31 teams, what if Kyle Connor goes to Kevin Cheveldayoff and says he no longer wants to play in Winnipeg, LA would immediately make a ton of sense, we aren't offering any of the guys you listed to acquire a guy who might score 50 goals this season in his year 24/25 season?

Not saying you trade QB for just any player, but he's clearly not an Evgeni Malkin type player where you immediately hang up should someone dangle a legit game-changing player in his prime.
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None of Olli Jokinem, Brayden Shenn or Wayne Simmonds were looked at in the way Byfield or Clarke are… Jokinen = Turcotte, Schenn was slightly below that and no one had Simmonds turning into what he became..
So I’m not sure what your basing your comments off of?? You and Axel seems to be way off on the talent/skill level of our prospects
 
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kings11 said:
None of Olli Jokinem, Brayden Shenn or Wayne Simmonds were looked at in the way Byfield or Clarke are… Jokinen = Turcotte, Schenn was slightly below that and no one had Simmonds turning into what he became..
So I’m not sure what your basing your comments off of?? You and Axel seems to be way off on the talent/skill level of our prospects
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Basing it off of my own memory as well as the relevant publications at the time. Where was Olli Jokinen ranked after his D+1 vs. QB? Not bashing QB, just saying the Kings have traded prospects like this before. I think @Brodeur has discussed past THN Futurewatch issues, so maybe he can give some clarity with the 1998 rankings. But I do know the first rankings on this site back in the late 90's had Jokinen as the #3 overall prospect, so to say he was viewed similar to Turcotte is simply not correct.

I know though, nothing pleases you. You were the one who accused me of being a "stats watcher, who clearly has never seen him play" in reference to another prospect after ironically giving an opinion after seeing said prospect play in person, so keep thinking what you want to believe.

And are you really accusing Axel of being negative? Haha, wow, just wow.
 
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Herby said:
Basing it off of my own memory as well as the relevant publications at the time. Where was Olli Jokinen ranked after his D+1 vs. QB? Not bashing QB, just saying the Kings have traded prospects like this before.

I know though, nothing pleases you. You were the one who accused me of being a "stats watcher, who clearly has never seen him play" in reference to another prospect after ironically giving an opinion after seeing said prospect play in person, so keep thinking what you want to believe.

And are you really accusing Axel of being negative? Haha, wow, just wow.
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The Gretzky trade aside, the Kings haven’t traded prospects at the level of QB or BC. If they have I’d like to know because if memory serves me right, Olli had the potential to be a 1C while QB is literally being hailed as a franchise savior.. those are two completely different things.
Clarke in the other hand is being touted as the best offensive Dman ever drafted by the Kings and that’s coming from the Kings..
So no, they have not traded prospect te of that caliber but have trade prospects liken to Turcotte, Kaliyev, Durzi.. etc
That Kid you’re referring to is Turcotte and while he indeed failed to score, you’d be delusional to deny his ability to drive a line and be a playmaker.. some here think he’s a scorer and he’s not.. he plays a similar game to our own Danault but with much more offensive upside
 
kings11 said:
The Gretzky trade aside, the Kings haven’t traded prospects at the level of QB or BC. If they have I’d like to know because if memory serves me right, Olli had the potential to be a 1C while QB is literally being hailed as a franchise savior.. those are two completely different things.
Clarke in the other hand is being touted as the best offensive Dman ever drafted by the Kings and that’s coming from the Kings..
So no, they have not traded prospect te of that caliber but have trade prospects liken to Turcotte, Kaliyev, Durzi.. etc
That Kid you’re referring to is Turcotte and while he indeed failed to score, you’d be delusional to deny his ability to drive a line and be a playmaker.. some here think he’s a scorer and he’s not.. he plays a similar game to our own Danault but with much more offensive upside
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I think your memory is off on Jokinen, he is not by my definition a franchise savior, but he was expected to be a star player in the NHL and his spot in the rankings of many publications seemed to back that up. Also, what is your defintion of franchise savior? When I think franchise savior I think McDavid, Matthews, Crosby. Nothing against QB but I don't see him at that level.

If Winnipeg offered Kyle Connor to the Kings tomorrow for QB you are saying no?
 
Herby said:
I think your memory is off on Jokinen, he is not by my definition a franchise savior, but he was expected to be a star player in the NHL and his spot in the rankings of many publications seemed to back that up. Also, what is your defintion of franchise savior? When I think franchise savior I think McDavid, Matthews, Crosby. Nothing against QB but I don't see him at that level.

If Winnipeg offered Kyle Connor to the Kings tomorrow for QB you are saying no?
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The savior bit is echoing what TMac mentioned about Byfield, Olli didn’t have that hype around him. He was projected to be a 1C and he eventually became that.. Byfield’s first comp and the most constant is Evgeni Malkin, that’s a Franchise center … imho Malkin was Crosby’s equal and was the real reason the Pens won 2 of their cups.. but I’m sure that’s another long topic that can be discussed… I also wouldn’t put Matthews up there, I’d put Kopi before I put Matthews or Eichel

Edit: As for the Kyle Connor question, I’d say no to both QB and BC being involved but then again that would be a deal for the off-season or next TDL where guys like Roy, Walker, Ardvisson, Moore, Kupari, JAD. Spence.. etc. could be on the move depending on what’s done this TDL, how the kids continue to develop and who they sign in the off-season.. long winded I know but the point is we have plenty of options
 
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kings11 said:
The savior bit is echoing what TMac mentioned about Byfield, Olli didn’t have that hype around him. He was projected to be a 1C and he eventually became that.. Byfield’s first comp and the most constant is Evgeni Malkin, that’s a Franchise center … imho Malkin was Crosby’s equal and was the real reason the Pens won 2 of their cups.. but I’m sure that’s another long topic that can be discussed… I also wouldn’t put Matthews up there, I’d put Kopi before I put Matthews or Eichel

Edit: As for the Kyle Connor question, I’d say no to both QB and BC being involved but then again that would be a deal for the off-season or next TDL where guys like Roy, Walker, Ardvisson, Moore, Kupari, JAD. Spence.. etc. could be on the move depending on what’s done this TDL, how the kids continue to develop and who they sign in the off-season.. long winded I know but the point is we have plenty of options
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I just don't understand how you can compare QB to Malkin, I think even the biggest QB fan on this board would find that ridiculous.

Malkin was a superstar the second he stepped on NHL ice and is IMO pretty clearly a Top 5 player in the NHL over the last 20 years. QB's ultimate ceiling is more like Barkov, which is still very good if he gets there, but he is no Malkin.
 
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Jokinen most definitely had the same kind of hype as Byfield, if not more. He was expected to step in right away, most don't expect the moon from Byfield for at least a couple of years.
 
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Herby said:
I just don't understand how you can compare QB to Malkin, I think even the biggest QB fan on this board would find that ridiculous.

Malkin was a superstar the second he stepped on NHL ice and is IMO pretty clearly a Top 5 player in the NHL over the last 20 years. QB's ultimate ceiling is more like Barkov, which is still very good if he gets there, but he is no Malkin.
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I said the most common comp is Malkin and that comes from pundits, hell even the Wings broadcast guys mentioned that. I think he’s more of a Kopi clone which aligns with your Barkov comp
 
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Herby said:
I just don't understand how you can compare QB to Malkin, I think even the biggest QB fan on this board would find that ridiculous.

Malkin was a superstar the second he stepped on NHL ice and is IMO pretty clearly a Top 5 player in the NHL over the last 20 years. QB's ultimate ceiling is more like Barkov, which is still very good if he gets there, but he is no Malkin.
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Byfield is the highest drafted "project" I can remember. Nothing is certain with him, but his potential was well worth the 2nd overall.

I think his game won't really take off until he gets his man strength, but the glimpses are nice. He isn't a right out of the package star, but I would say his offensive potential is a bit higher than Barkov. Barkov is a top 4 player league wide, that's not meant as an insult. But Byfield has a lot, lot further to go to reach his potential than Barkov or Malkin did from their starts.
 
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kings11 said:
I said the most common comp is Malkin and that comes from pundits, hell even the Wings broadcast guys mentioned that. I think he’s more of a Kopi clone which aligns with your Barkov comp
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There are stylistic comparisons to Malkin for sure. That big, rangy mix of angle changing speed and shot release, but Malkin gets much better leverage. He is more direct where as Byfield meanders a bit.
 
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bland said:
Jokinen most definitely had the same kind of hype as Byfield, if not more. He was expected to step in right away, most don't expect the moon from Byfield for at least a couple of years.
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The only player I remember with massive hype that year was Thornton. He had gaudy junior numbers, size, the whole package. I also remember the positives of Brewer- big guy, could skate. Not gonna lie, I was hoping he was who the Kings would pick because Thornton was obviously #1. Olli was definitely well thought of, he was the top euro IIRC. Mostly I remember that he had a mean streak, was tough, etc. He certainly wasn't thought of as an option for #1, like Thornton, or even Marleau who was on that 2nd tier with Jokinen. I thought Olli was a risk because his numbers in Finland weren't all that impressive where he was playing with Karalahti, and another one of our prospects, but I can't remember which one. Personally I don't think anyone thought his ceiling was near what they think Byfield's is, but YMMV.
 
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bland said:
Byfield is the highest drafted "project" I can remember. Nothing is certain with him, but his potential was well worth the 2nd overall.

I think his game won't really take off until he gets his man strength, but the glimpses are nice. He isn't a right out of the package star, but I would say his offensive potential is a bit higher than Barkov. Barkov is a top 4 player league wide, that's not meant as an insult. But Byfield has a lot, lot further to go to reach his potential than Barkov or Malkin did from their starts.
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I agree with all of this.

I just think there is some poor memory on what type of prospect Jokinen was and just how amazing a career Malkin has had. Malkin gets overshadowed because he played with Crosby, but his career is stellar, and he was a big game player as well. Even at 35 he is still one of the most talented players in the league.

I like QB, and its not like I am saying the Kings should trade him for the sake of trading him, but if a young established star becomes available you don't just automatically say no and hang up. There is still a very realistic chance that QB tops out as a PLD type player, people always hype up the ceiling and never consider the floor, that is a flaw on all these forums, not just the Kings one.
 
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