Olympics: Olympic Boxing

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Stylizer1

Teflon Don
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I'm not gonna answer this obvious bait until you give a reasoning behind it lol. You are the one asking the question, no one that replies to you should provide an answer until you give an inkling as to why you are asking it and what examples you can provide to highlight a potential issue.

Ideally one that would be topical with boxing, but...
Wow, that's not usually how asking questions and looking for an honest response works. You are someone with skin in the game and I thought I would ask you your opinion. If you don't know then that is fine, I'm not trying to win. All I have been doing is providing potential issue's have I not?

If a boxer, hits puberty, and starts to develop much higher levels of testosterone than what would be considered normal or average among other females (vast majority of the global population), trains and develops more muscle, speed, and agility than a normal or average female, then at what point is that an unfair advantage being that they are in an extremely small minority at present but taking note of this could lead to certain sports being overwhelmed by females with this condition looking to excel?
 

Beau Knows

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If a boxer, hits puberty, and starts to develop much higher levels of testosterone than what would be considered normal or average among other females (vast majority of the global population), trains and develops more muscle, speed, and agility than a normal or average female, then at what point is that an unfair advantage being that they are in an extremely small minority at present but taking note of this could lead to certain sports being overwhelmed by females with this condition looking to excel?

Why should there be a cutoff for natural testosterone levels?

Are we gonna put height caps in the NBA? No NBA for you if you're over 6'4" since that's "unfair" to those of us in the "normal" height range?

Are we going to ban marathon runners who come from countries like Kenya where they live at high altitudes, possibly have acquired genetic advantages for efficient oxygen use while having unusually thin, long limbs and short bodies, perfect for distance running?

No? Than why this obsession with testosterone?
 

Stylizer1

Teflon Don
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Sports are already largely dependent on athletes being born with "unfair" advantages and being in the smallest representation of the global population. If there are women out there with naturally higher levels of testosterone that are gaining a competitive advantage from it, how is it any different than the advantages athletes can have in other sports?

Michael Phelps basically has boat oars for arms. The average NBA player if 6'6" tall. Kalenjin runners win something like 70% of long distance events, despite only being just 0.06% of the world's population. We could train all out lives in one of those sports with access to the best trainers, facilities and nutrition possible, and we would still never be able to compete with those born with gifts we just don't have.

Part of the allure of the Olympics and high level sports in general is to watch people achieve things that the average person never could. I don't see how women with naturally high levels of testosterone would be any different from any other elite athlete with genetic gifts.
Because at the heart of the issue is the biological make up of the athlete and what constitutes an unfair advantage. What if only intersex women break all of the track n field records in the next Olympics, hypothetically speaking, and better those records by a 5%?

Bigger, stronger, faster is what sports is all about but when your reach that because a medical anomaly which gives you an advantage

What if the Chinese use cripser to create genetically superior athletes? They would have been born naturally but have genetic gifts.

This is not that much of an issue today but it will become one sooner than later.
 

Beau Knows

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Because at the heart of the issue is the biological make up of the athlete and what constitutes an unfair advantage. What if only intersex women break all of the track n field records in the next Olympics, hypothetically speaking, and better those records by a 5%?

Then good for them? If an 8 foot tall guy comes along and breaks the high jump world record are you also going to advocate banning him from the games?

Bigger, stronger, faster is what sports is all about but when your reach that because a medical anomaly which gives you an advantage

Autism is a "medical anomaly" and yet can in theory provide some kind of advantage in certain fields. Should we ban autistic people, from say chess, if they start dominating the game? Or maybe we can use opportunities like this to celebrate the diversity of human beings and what they can accomplish, despite not tightly fitting into whatever traditional package people insist on placing them in.

Women with high testosterone, masculine features, etc are generally viewed as undesirable in our society and have disadvantages to deal with of their own. Why is there this desire to take something positive that they can make from that (athletic ability) and rob them of it?
 

Stylizer1

Teflon Don
Jun 12, 2009
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Why should there be a cutoff for natural testosterone levels?

Are we gonna put height caps in the NBA? No NBA for you if you're over 6'4" since that's "unfair" to those of us in the "normal" height range?

Are we going to ban marathon runners who come from countries like Kenya where they live at high altitudes, possibly have acquired genetic advantages for efficient oxygen use while having unusually thin, long limbs and short bodies, perfect for distance running?

No? Than why this obsession with testosterone?
If a woman is born with testicles that is an unfair advantage to ones that are not. Your arguments are really trying to dumb down the complexities of this argument.

Then good for them? If an 8 foot tall guy comes along and breaks the high jump world record are you also going to advocate banning him from the games?



Autism is a "medical anomaly" and yet can in theory provide some kind of advantage in certain fields. Should we ban autistic people, from say chess, if they start dominating the game? Or maybe we can use opportunities like this to celebrate the diversity of human beings and what they can accomplish, despite not tightly fitting into whatever traditional package people insist on placing them in.

Women with high testosterone, masculine features, etc are generally viewed as undesirable in our society and have disadvantages to deal with of their own. Why is there this desire to take something positive that they can make from that (athletic ability) and rob them of it?
I sense you are taking this argument from an emotional one rather than a practical one.
 

Garo

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Wow, that's not usually how asking questions and looking for an honest response works. You are someone with skin in the game and I thought I would ask you your opinion. If you don't know then that is fine, I'm not trying to win. All I have been doing is providing potential issue's have I not?

If a boxer, hits puberty, and starts to develop much higher levels of testosterone than what would be considered normal or average among other females (vast majority of the global population), trains and develops more muscle, speed, and agility than a normal or average female, then at what point is that an unfair advantage being that they are in an extremely small minority at present but taking note of this could lead to certain sports being overwhelmed by females with this condition looking to excel?
To ask questions you kinda need a common playing field. If you keep asking one question with zero way for me to get into why you are asking this I am very unsure how a serious answer could be given. Especially since given your... history, it is very likely your position and I would spark a debate.

Science wise, what you are seeing as a potential scenario is extremely unrealistic. Semenya stands alone in that category for a reason, and her genetic makeup likely has other qualities beyond an higher testosterone level. But even if someone has similar levels, a woman doesn't naturally process that much testosterone. You need some, obviously, as men need estrogen, but it's not a guarantee to translate into advantages you would see in men at all.

The concern with people like me, who have medically transitioned and everything, isn't our testosterone levels, considering it's heavily supressed and about average at best for a woman. It's that we went through "male puberty" - the real effects of this not being that clear deep in transition but whatever - and such we get the standard "male" advantages in bone density, explosive power, yada yada. But a woman, even if she produces more testosterone around puberty, is very unlikely to process this given the lack of male gonads. Again, Semenya is an unique case there, nowhere near the possibility of a norm being established by her inclusion.

Could a woman still has some advantage though? Well... possibly. But the problem is that every body is different and used to its hormonal production that works for it. At the elite sports, only the best genetics win, it's just what happens. Take bouldering. Janja Garnbret will always have an advantage over someone like Ai Mori because the latter is small and nowhere near as strong. As far as women go, Janja is insanely strong and it shows in her pulls and ability to climb outdoor routes no other woman has come close to doing. It's a significant advantage in the sport. You don't really need to check her testosterone level though, and it's a bit odd that women have to subject themselves to this to satisfy invasive scrutiny. She just has better genetics.

(All of this doesn't include taking testosterone supplements though, as the goal of those is to alter the body and push it in a different direction. Even for women it would be a noted advantage that is blatantly doping.)

So when it comes to boxing... you'd need a woman like Semenya to maybe make the difference you are thinking could happen. But if you are thinking this is going to make woman boxing more unequal, it already is. Marie-Ève Dicaire literally killed a teenager because of what happened in the ring a few years ago. Both were cis women well within the standard expectations of what one would be. But promoters do what they do and medical conditions were hidden so the fight could proceed. I'm all for more scrutiny in combat sports - or frankly, an all-out ban - but your scenario is not exactly the most likely to happen, as plenty of other issues have been exposed before it.
 

DaaaaB's

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If a woman is born with testicles that is an unfair advantage to ones that are not. Your arguments are really trying to dumb down the complexities of this argument.


I sense you are taking this argument from an emotional one rather than a practical one.
You make zero sense and are making a fool of yourself. Testosterone to testicles lol.
 
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Albatros

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Marie-Ève Dicaire literally killed a teenager because of what happened in the ring a few years ago.
You probably mean Marie-Pier Houle. But obviously pro boxing has whole different dynamics that make it inherently less safe.
 
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Albatros

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There's little scientific evidence of a strong correlation between high naturally occurring testosterone and excellence in athletics. In other words there's no such limit.
 
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Stylizer1

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To ask questions you kinda need a common playing field. If you keep asking one question with zero way for me to get into why you are asking this I am very unsure how a serious answer could be given. Especially since given your... history, it is very likely your position and I would spark a debate.

Science wise, what you are seeing as a potential scenario is extremely unrealistic. Semenya stands alone in that category for a reason, and her genetic makeup likely has other qualities beyond an higher testosterone level. But even if someone has similar levels, a woman doesn't naturally process that much testosterone. You need some, obviously, as men need estrogen, but it's not a guarantee to translate into advantages you would see in men at all.

The concern with people like me, who have medically transitioned and everything, isn't our testosterone levels, considering it's heavily supressed and about average at best for a woman. It's that we went through "male puberty" - the real effects of this not being that clear deep in transition but whatever - and such we get the standard "male" advantages in bone density, explosive power, yada yada. But a woman, even if she produces more testosterone around puberty, is very unlikely to process this given the lack of male gonads. Again, Semenya is an unique case there, nowhere near the possibility of a norm being established by her inclusion.

Could a woman still has some advantage though? Well... possibly. But the problem is that every body is different and used to its hormonal production that works for it. At the elite sports, only the best genetics win, it's just what happens. Take bouldering. Janja Garnbret will always have an advantage over someone like Ai Mori because the latter is small and nowhere near as strong. As far as women go, Janja is insanely strong and it shows in her pulls and ability to climb outdoor routes no other woman has come close to doing. It's a significant advantage in the sport. You don't really need to check her testosterone level though, and it's a bit odd that women have to subject themselves to this to satisfy invasive scrutiny. She just has better genetics.

(All of this doesn't include taking testosterone supplements though, as the goal of those is to alter the body and push it in a different direction. Even for women it would be a noted advantage that is blatantly doping.)

So when it comes to boxing... you'd need a woman like Semenya to maybe make the difference you are thinking could happen. But if you are thinking this is going to make woman boxing more unequal, it already is. Marie-Ève Dicaire literally killed a teenager because of what happened in the ring a few years ago. Both were cis women well within the standard expectations of what one would be. But promoters do what they do and medical conditions were hidden so the fight could proceed. I'm all for more scrutiny in combat sports - or frankly, an all-out ban - but your scenario is not exactly the most likely to happen, as plenty of other issues have been exposed before it.
Caster may stand alone but was still allowed to compete in the Olympics and win medals. Only from her stating her medical condition that we can form opinions. There are many reasons why women can have elevated levels of testosterone such as ovarian cysts. The levels we are discussing are levels well above that. Castor would be on one extreme where as Khelif would be close? We don't know her medical situation but what if it came out that she too had the same anomaly as Castor? They both seem to have been born with DSD's. These genetic variables make it hard to determine if these women have underdeveloped or fully developed y chromosomes. The advantages of such genetic variables could be larger muscle mass, bigger and longer bones, and larger organs such as lungs and heart. Castor seems to posses some if not all of these traits. Just by the looks Khelif looks to also be benefiting in some way. She looks a lot different than all of the others she fought. Yada Yada is important. I believe the testing takes into consideration all of the different reasons women can have naturally higher testosterone levels. There is a range most women fall into. If women fall outside that range its because of something greater that is not experienced throughout the general public. This is the heart of the discussion. Castor clearly does and has and advantage. Khelif does but to what degree? Elevated testosterone alone doesn't mean that a female will have a physical advantage but we are talking about the ones who are outside of that range. Cator is and not enough is known about Khelif to make that call. One of my arguments is that even putting Castor on hormones doesn't change the fact that she went through puberty and produced testosterone that definitely gave her an unfair advantage.
 

Garo

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Caster may stand alone but was still allowed to compete in the Olympics and win medals. Only from her stating her medical condition that we can form opinions. There are many reasons why women can have elevated levels of testosterone such as ovarian cysts. The levels we are discussing are levels well above that. Castor would be on one extreme where as Khelif would be close? We don't know her medical situation but what if it came out that she too had the same anomaly as Castor? They both seem to have been born with DSD's. These genetic variables make it hard to determine if these women have underdeveloped or fully developed y chromosomes. The advantages of such genetic variables could be larger muscle mass, bigger and longer bones, and larger organs such as lungs and heart. Castor seems to posses some if not all of these traits. Just by the looks Khelif looks to also be benefiting in some way. She looks a lot different than all of the others she fought. Yada Yada is important. I believe the testing takes into consideration all of the different reasons women can have naturally higher testosterone levels. There is a range most women fall into. If women fall outside that range its because of something greater that is not experienced throughout the general public. This is the heart of the discussion. Castor clearly does and has and advantage. Khelif does but to what degree? Elevated testosterone alone doesn't mean that a female will have a physical advantage but we are talking about the ones who are outside of that range. Cator is and not enough is known about Khelif to make that call. One of my arguments is that even putting Castor on hormones doesn't change the fact that she went through puberty and produced testosterone that definitely gave her an unfair advantage.
okay there's a lot there:

- I don't think Semenya should have been blocked from competing. Frankly what has happened to her is a complete sham. I am very unsure how any of that would be about protecting women when powerful international organizations are forced to display very private informations about women. To me this is a bit more important than a random runner not getting a medal but what do I know there.

- Khelif could have the same disorder and still not be close. The very issue with using those disorders as a statement of fact about how these bodies are going is that every indidual is different. This happens with genetic chronic diseases too. I have one myself and my range of symptoms is different than someone else, just as it is for them and someone else. There's a similar basis, but that's about it.

- Khelif doesn't *look* like she does, I'm sorry. Have you seen Algerian men? Have you seen Welterweight men? Khelif is nowhere near both of those lol. Hell, look at the side by side picture of her with Hamori. Hamori looks bulkier! And yet she portrayed herself as the little girl... Anyway. Khelif does have a more androgynous look, I suppose. But in women that doesn't really mean higher testosterone, it's more likely to be caused by estrogen issues. Which are pretty common in top female athetes to begin with.

Semenya is still a major outliner because she happened to develop specifically by being an intersex woman that already had good genetics outside of that. Even someone "being close" would still likely be far away from her level. And frankly I'm still not sure it's any wrong.
 
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uncleben

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There are many reasons why women can have elevated levels of testosterone such as ovarian cysts. The levels we are discussing are levels well above that. Castor would be on one extreme where as Khelif would be close? ... They both seem to have been born with DSD's
No. There is zero evidence or reason to assume that about Khelif. Please stop making unsubstantiated claims or suppositions. There is no proof of high T levels, there is no proof of DSDs. We are not going to make grand claims like that, especially when the main pillar of those claims is:

She looks a lot different than all of the others she fought.
I thought...
This has nothing to do with looks
. . .
There is a range most women fall into. If women fall outside that range its because of something greater that is not experienced throughout the general public. This is the heart of the discussion.
This is a valid enough discussion - not rumours of Khelif medical history - but it unfortunately falls apart when you fail to consider pretty much literally any other genetic descriptor that falls outside of the average human range that aren't based on sex characteristics.

Both horse racing and basketball have self-selected to benefit those well outside the standard deviation of height, for example. The ability to cultivate muscle will help weightlifters. Neurodivergency can help memory, focus, concentration. The arterioles in the lungs of deep divers don't constrict as much in response to low oxygen as the average person. Etc, etc, etc.

[And often high-performing athletes, especially females, have their hormone cycles absolutely destroyed in the name of diet and exercise and are pretty much immediately non-normative simply by being at that level, advantageous or not (maybe an advantage in sport; often major disadvantages in pretty much every other aspect of life). Plus altered brain chemistries, and social and cultural cues and pressures - what's "normal" or average becomes far and removed pretty quickly.]



Some people have genetic advantages, yes.
I think all of us here will admit that.

What are you really trying to suggest? That we should have blanket guidelines of when an advantage becomes "unfair"?
Because you cannot ignore all the other advantages then, and only be concerned when an athlete looks a certain way.
 
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Jussi

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Caster may stand alone but was still allowed to compete in the Olympics and win medals. Only from her stating her medical condition that we can form opinions. There are many reasons why women can have elevated levels of testosterone such as ovarian cysts. The levels we are discussing are levels well above that. Castor would be on one extreme where as Khelif would be close? We don't know her medical situation but what if it came out that she too had the same anomaly as Castor? They both seem to have been born with DSD's. These genetic variables make it hard to determine if these women have underdeveloped or fully developed y chromosomes. The advantages of such genetic variables could be larger muscle mass, bigger and longer bones, and larger organs such as lungs and heart. Castor seems to posses some if not all of these traits. Just by the looks Khelif looks to also be benefiting in some way. She looks a lot different than all of the others she fought. Yada Yada is important. I believe the testing takes into consideration all of the different reasons women can have naturally higher testosterone levels. There is a range most women fall into. If women fall outside that range its because of something greater that is not experienced throughout the general public. This is the heart of the discussion. Castor clearly does and has and advantage. Khelif does but to what degree? Elevated testosterone alone doesn't mean that a female will have a physical advantage but we are talking about the ones who are outside of that range. Cator is and not enough is known about Khelif to make that call. One of my arguments is that even putting Castor on hormones doesn't change the fact that she went through puberty and produced testosterone that definitely gave her an unfair advantage.
Not really, other than height. Female boxers and MMA fighters tend to look less feminine in-ring, than outside it. I won't post Khelif's instagram picture again but that alone is evidence of it.
 

Albatros

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Some also simply don't prefer to maintain a feminine style, even outside the ring, but that's completely meaningless regarding the question of them being women.

Khelif's semifinal opponent Janjaem Suwannapheng for example wouldn't stand out all that much visually as a part of a men's team:
 

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Stylizer1

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Not really, other than height. Female boxers and MMA fighters tend to look less feminine in-ring, than outside it. I won't post Khelif's instagram picture again but that alone is evidence of it.
Sorry wasn't referring to femininity but the difference in posture in the ring. It's like how Castor looks running compared to the field.
 

Garo

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Not really, other than height. Female boxers and MMA fighters tend to look less feminine in-ring, than outside it. I won't post Khelif's instagram picture again but that alone is evidence of it.
LMAO I just looked at her instagram.

Seriously how can anyone think she's a man....
 

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Even if this is or becomes a problem, most of the other Olympic sports are already likely dominated by athletes that are doping or have in the past.

Why worry about it specifically in this sport that no one paid much attention to, until people started making baseless accusations about an athlete being trans or a secret man in disguise?
Oh you know why...

Not really, other than height. Female boxers and MMA fighters tend to look less feminine in-ring, than outside it. I won't post Khelif's instagram picture again but that alone is evidence of it.
They should get their hair done and a make over before fighting.
 
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Dubi Doo

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Those spreading venom toward a person they have zero clue existed before the outrage and have zero proof of what they're packin' below the waist should be embarrassed with themselves. Until it comes out from a reputable source that she's packin'- save that venom for a true asshole. Y'all need to look at yourselves in the mirror and change your ways. We've all had to do it. Lord knows I have.

Also, I'm looking forward to these lawsuits against Musk and Rowling, though they both have the funds to win the case. You can't go online posting BS getting an army of mindless bigots riled up without consequences. They'll play the victim card because they're plagued with a victim complex, but it's deserved. I suppose that's what happens when someone is chronically getting into culture war arguments on Twitter.
 
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Beau Knows

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If the people who made a big fuss when they thought she was trans (based on nothing) were just honestly concerned about the boxing tournament being fair, they would have shut up and moved along when they found out their assumptions about her were wrong. Now we're inventing scenarios where she's doping or has secret testicles? Come on.

At least J.K. Rowling has had the decency to shut up for a while. She should apologize to the woman, but at least she has moved on from this - for now.
 
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AnInjuredJasonZucker

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A lawsuit would probably also force Khelif to prove that what Musk, Rowling, etc. isn’t true, which could backfire spectacularly.
No it wouldn't. The suit is for harassment. If it was for libel, it also wouldn't require her to prove anything. The burden of proof in France is on the defendant. Musk and Rowling have to prove that what they allege is true.
 

Stylizer1

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You're the one not making sense. First by bringing up talking points by the corrupt IBA, distributing it's disinformation and then by hijacking the thread to something completely different from it's actual topic.
I have coherently stated my opinion on the issues we've discussed. Over the next 20-30 years this will become more of an issue with the amount of toxic food/environment we here in the West consume. We are getting sicker and sicker and these hand full of anomalies now will change the playing field in the future. There is no doubt.
 
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