Olympics: Olympic Boxing

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GQS

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That’s how nonsensical you guys are sounding. Stop carrying water for a completely discredited and delegitimized organization like the IBA which has changed tunes on this multiple times and never actually shared any concrete information.
This isn't about Khelif only, its about the entire issue of intersex/transgender etc. athletes who are competing with female athletes. Its been an ongoing issue for many years now where Caster Semenya was previously at the center of this discussion when 'she' was allowed to compete and win against women.

Interestingly despite categorizing Semenya as a female, she somehow has been able to conceive two children with her wife through IVF. How is that possible unless she wasn't all female to begin with, but somehow she was still female enough to compete against female athletes?
 

No Fun Shogun

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Semenya and Khelif are two different conversation points even still. Semenya has been documented and recognized as intersex, there is no documentable evidence that Khelif is intersex other than seemingly baseless and suspect IBA claims. The whole thing stems from a single test by a suspect organization whereas none of her other tests or competitions raised red flags.
 

Garo

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They both fall under the category of athletes that people are discussing whether or not they should be competing with female athletes and for many this is a big concern for them. I think many people and especially the athletes themselves would like clear guidelines so that everyone knows who and who isn't allowed to compete in female sports instead of having this be an ongoing issue for an indefinite period of time.
But the guidelines are clear. To the massive disadvantage of people like me sure, but they really couldn't be clearer. It's up to the people who accuse Imane Khelif of falling outside of these guidelines to provide actual, science based evidence for their reasoning. But that hasn't happened.

Also, leaving a voice to the athletes there is gonna make those guidelines even more murky in a case like this. Since there's absolutely zero evidence of anything, why would you leave it to "feelings"? That's a very dangerous thing to unleash, as seen by the wave of nonsense coming from some sectors. And it's already weaponized by competitors, just look at the vile crap Hamori shared before her fight.

"looks like a man"...
Honestly the funniest thing for me about this argument is that I already knew that crowd didn't know what a woman looks like, but I honestly still expected them to know what a man looks like.
 
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Albatros

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They both fall under the category of athletes that people are discussing whether or not they should be competing with female athletes and for many this is a big concern for them. I think many people and especially the athletes themselves would like clear guidelines so that everyone knows who and who isn't allowed to compete in female sports instead of having this be an ongoing issue for an indefinite period of time.
"People" can discuss all they want, but there's nothing unclear about the (Olympic) rules. If they want their own boxing rules then establish a boxing federation and voilà.

...or in this particular case just join the IBA (bon voyage).
 
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Stylizer1

Teflon Don
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I think going forward you will start to see some women choosing to take testosterone just enough to make it equal to their counter parts. The effects steroids have on women are for the most part irreversible. Cris Cyborg is a perfect example.
 

Jussi

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I think going forward you will start to see some women choosing to take testosterone just enough to make it equal to their counter parts. The effects steroids have on women are for the most part irreversible. Cris Cyborg is a perfect example.
Testosterone levels are measured in doping tests.
 

Jussi

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At what levels though? Does an amateur boxer coming up get as stringent of tests as an Olympian? How do we know if that Khelif hasn't done testosterone earlier in her life?
Ask WADA. They're the ones who conduct the testing: Improved detection of testosterone abuse

You're way too obsessed with Khelif, man.

michael-jordan-get-some-help.gif
 
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uncleben

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At what levels though? Does an amateur boxer coming up get as stringent of tests as an Olympian? How do we know if that Khelif hasn't done testosterone earlier in her life?
How do we know Kellie Harrington didn't earlier in life?
How do we know Michael Phelps didn't earlier in life?
How do we know you haven't?



This is not the position we want to start from.
 
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Garo

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At what levels though? Does an amateur boxer coming up get as stringent of tests as an Olympian? How do we know if that Khelif hasn't done testosterone earlier in her life?
Given her age - ... and country of origin - it is exceedingly unlikely she would have had access to that ten years ago.

She competed in the Olympics three years ago, which means going through the whole qualification process without an itch, it would also be very unlikely she would have abused a substance that would have been noticed in testing. Also, in Olympics boxing, all competitors are technically amateurs.

I feel like the people pushing really high testosterone are searching for a problem to apply their solution to, honestly.
 

Stylizer1

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Given her age - ... and country of origin - it is exceedingly unlikely she would have had access to that ten years ago.

She competed in the Olympics three years ago, which means going through the whole qualification process without an itch, it would also be very unlikely she would have abused a substance that would have been noticed in testing. Also, in Olympics boxing, all competitors are technically amateurs.

I feel like the people pushing really high testosterone are searching for a problem to apply their solution to, honestly.
When is too much testosterone an unfair advantage? What happens to women's Olympics and sports for that matter in 30 years if only those with high testosterone are the medalists/professionals?
 

uncleben

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When is too much testosterone an unfair advantage? What happens to women's Olympics and sports for that matter in 30 years if only those with high testosterone are the medalists/professionals?
What happens to men's sports if only those with high testosterone are the medalists/professionals?

Competition rises, and new records are broken.
New rules and technologies are implemented to adapt to the new game.

Welcome to S P O R T S for the past 100+ years.
 
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Garo

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When is too much testosterone an unfair advantage? What happens to women's Olympics and sports for that matter in 30 years if only those with high testosterone are the medalists/professionals?
See this is what I meant. A solution without a problem.

You seem to have it in mind that "high testosterone" is a significant problem currently in women's sports. Except that there's really very little pushing this. Why do you believe it to be so? I can't really solve a debate that is in your head.
 
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Beau Knows

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When is too much testosterone an unfair advantage? What happens to women's Olympics and sports for that matter in 30 years if only those with high testosterone are the medalists/professionals?

Even if this is or becomes a problem, most of the other Olympic sports are already likely dominated by athletes that are doping or have in the past.

Why worry about it specifically in this sport that no one paid much attention to, until people started making baseless accusations about an athlete being trans or a secret man in disguise?
 
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Stylizer1

Teflon Don
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See this is what I meant. A solution without a problem.

You seem to have it in mind that "high testosterone" is a significant problem currently in women's sports. Except that there's really very little pushing this. Why do you believe it to be so? I can't really solve a debate that is in your head.
It's not rampant but it has to start somewhere. It took 2 generations for Canada's men's basketball team to have a roster full of NBA players. 4 generations ago we were riding horses instead of driving cars. In the next 20-30 years it is very possible that female sports consists of only women who are within the smallest representation of the global population competing due to their elevated testosterone.

Like I said, when is too much testosterone an unfair advantage?

What happens to men's sports if only those with high testosterone are the medalists/professionals?

Competition rises, and new records are broken.
New rules and technologies are implemented to adapt to the new game.

Welcome to S P O R T S for the past 100+ years.
Exactly, new rules. This is the argument.
 

Jussi

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It's not rampant but it has to start somewhere. It took 2 generations for Canada's men's basketball team to have a roster full of NBA players. 4 generations ago we were riding horses instead of driving cars. In the next 20-30 years it is very possible that female sports consists of only women who are within the smallest representation of the global population competing due to their elevated testosterone.

Like I said, when is too much testosterone an unfair advantage?


Exactly, new rules. This is the argument.
It is actually not because as has been explained to you numerous times, testosterone levels are monitored by WADA and national DA testing. Caster Semenya was forced to change distances and more or less retire due to having to use medication to lower her naturally too high testosterone production.
 

Garo

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It's not rampant but it has to start somewhere. It took 2 generations for Canada's men's basketball team to have a roster full of NBA players. 4 generations ago we were riding horses instead of driving cars. In the next 20-30 years it is very possible that female sports consists of only women who are within the smallest representation of the global population competing due to their elevated testosterone.
But again, what is this based on? Both your examples followed specific trends you could reasonably track, but your scary scenario has hardly any traction.

Although, elite sports in general already consist of about the smallest representation of the global population. That's why they are elite sports.
 

Stylizer1

Teflon Don
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It is actually not because as has been explained to you numerous times, testosterone levels are monitored by WADA and national DA testing. Caster Semenya was forced to change distances and more or less retire due to having to use medication to lower her naturally too high testosterone production.
Should that not be against her rights as a human being? She benefited from all those year with more muscle. Talking hormones doesn't negate that. This is where the issue becomes a problem. If Castor was born like that should caster not be allowed to run? Is this not the issue people are saying I'm off on?

But again, what is this based on? Both your examples followed specific trends you could reasonably track, but your scary scenario has hardly any traction.

Although, elite sports in general already consist of about the smallest representation of the global population. That's why they are elite sports.
when is too much testosterone an unfair advantage?
 

Garo

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when is too much testosterone an unfair advantage?
I'm not gonna answer this obvious bait until you give a reasoning behind it lol. You are the one asking the question, no one that replies to you should provide an answer until you give an inkling as to why you are asking it and what examples you can provide to highlight a potential issue.

Ideally one that would be topical with boxing, but...
 
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Jussi

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Should that not be against her rights as a human being? She benefited from all those year with more muscle. Talking hormones doesn't negate that. This is where the issue becomes a problem. If Castor was born like that should caster not be allowed to run? Is this not the issue people are saying I'm off on?
Well Semenya's situation is still in courts to be decided.

Also, as Garo already questioned, what has any of this to do with Olympic boxing?
 

Beau Knows

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It's not rampant but it has to start somewhere. It took 2 generations for Canada's men's basketball team to have a roster full of NBA players. 4 generations ago we were riding horses instead of driving cars. In the next 20-30 years it is very possible that female sports consists of only women who are within the smallest representation of the global population competing due to their elevated testosterone.

Like I said, when is too much testosterone an unfair advantage?

Sports are already largely dependent on athletes being born with "unfair" advantages and being in the smallest representation of the global population. If there are women out there with naturally higher levels of testosterone that are gaining a competitive advantage from it, how is it any different than the advantages athletes can have in other sports?

Michael Phelps basically has boat oars for arms. The average NBA player is 6'6" tall. Kalenjin runners win something like 70% of long distance events, despite only being just 0.06% of the world's population. We could train all out lives in one of those sports with access to the best trainers, facilities and nutrition possible, and we would still never be able to compete with those born with gifts we just don't have.

Part of the allure of the Olympics and high level sports in general is to watch people achieve things that the average person never could. I don't see how women with naturally high levels of testosterone would be any different from any other elite athlete with genetic gifts.
 
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