Olympics: Olympic Boxing

[daver]

No, I don't think that allowing a woman to compete with other women in a boxing tournament is putting "inclusion" over safety.

Except her eligibility was challenged prior to the Games and the IOC seemingly took a "progressive" view of things that, in theory, could have seen a biological man compete in the women's division.

Why didn't the IOC take more care to ensure this situation was dealt with before the Games? It is on them that it reached the level of frenzy that it did.

 

[Beau Knows]

Why didn't the IOC take more care to ensure this situation was dealt with before the Games? It is on them that it reached the level of frenzy that it did.

No...it's not.

It's not on the IOC that a bunch of lunatics started accusing an athlete of being trans with no evidence. It's not the IOC's fault that they refused to back down, let alone apologize when they found out they were wrong.

Do you have no empathy whatsoever for this person? How do you not see how poorly she has been treated here?

 

[uncleben]

Except her eligibility was challenged prior to the Games and the IOC seemingly took a "progressive" view of things that, in theory, could have seen a biological man compete in the women's division.

Why didn't the IOC take more care to ensure this situation was dealt with before the Games? It is on them that it reached the level of frenzy that it did.

There is zero evidence to suggest anything other than she was in the competitive class she should be in.

Please stop perpetuating myths and falsehoods.

 

[Jussi]

You don't think that the IOC is not taking a position that inclusion is more important than safety/competitive fairness concerns?

So you're seriously giving the corrupt IBA's claim's credibility?

 

[DaaaaB's]

Except her eligibility was challenged prior to the Games and the IOC seemingly took a "progressive" view of things that, in theory, could have seen a biological man compete in the women's division.

Why didn't the IOC take more care to ensure this situation was dealt with before the Games? It is on them that it reached the level of frenzy that it did.

Uh no, it reached this level of frenzy because of people like you.

 

[daver]

There is zero evidence to suggest anything other than she was in the competitive class she should be in.

Please stop perpetuating myths and falsehoods.

Except for the suspension in a previous competition.

Uh no, it reached this level of frenzy because of people like you.

There you go. Feel better now for calling out someone online. The athlete was ruled ineligible previously and the IOC did not setup any reasonable standards to clear this up.

 

[Albatros]

Except for the suspension in a previous competition.

There you go. Feel better now for calling out someone online. The athlete was ruled ineligible previously and the IOC did not setup any reasonable standards to clear this up.

The IBA is not recognized by the IOC.

 

[Albatros]

Ok, what does this have to do with appropriate testing?

Appropriate procedures are set in the Olympic rules and those rules were followed consistently. Rule changes may freely be pursued by those so inclined, but changes can not occur during the tournament. If a discussion is to be had, it is for 2028 and after.

 

[Beau Knows]

Yeah that Youtube channel sounds reasonable

What makes you a heretic? Fallen BBC presenter Andrew Gold believes we're in an age of group-think and tribes, and need heretics - those who use unconventional wisdom to speak out against their own groups, from cancelled comedians and radical feminists to cult defectors and vigilantes hunting deviants. This is YouTube for intelligent adults capable of plurality of opinion and considered dissent.

 

[Jussi]

Ok, what does this have to do with appropriate testing?

You may want to watch this video:

IBA has not conducted appropriate testing. There is zero documentation of one taking even place.

The channel you posted is not a source for anything.

 

[Beau Knows]

I guess when you didn't see a land acknowledgement right off the start you had no reason to actually listen an expert on the topic.

Land acknowledgement? What? Oh let me guess are those bad or something? Or to use that channel's kind of language: it's part of a "woke agenda" from "mutants" "destroying civilization"?

You dropped a 1 hour long video from an angry reactionary type of channel into the thread, expecting people to watch it without even pointing out what specifically from the video you want anyone to watch or respond to.

Why don't you just make whatever point you apparently had when you originally responded to my post? I said I was happy to see her win after all the bullshit she went through, you responded with a series of questions. Do you still have some kind of issue with that comment after I clarified what the bullshit she went through was? What even is your point?

 

[DaaaaB's]

Except for the suspension in a previous competition.



There you go. Feel better now for calling out someone online. The athlete was ruled ineligible previously and the IOC did not setup any reasonable standards to clear this up.

What I said is completely true so what are you crying about?

Your second sentence is completely irrelevant and has already been pointed out to you multiple times. Keep on pushing your agenda tho.

 

[daver]

Appropriate procedures are set in the Olympic rules and those rules were followed consistently. Rule changes may freely be pursued by those so inclined, but changes can not occur during the tournament. If a discussion is to be had, it is for 2028 and after.

Do you think a "Female" listed as a person's gender on a passport is appropriate to ensure fairness and safety? Why do other sports have sophisticated testing in place?

 

[Albatros]

Do you think a "Female" listed as a person's gender on a passport is appropriate to ensure fairness and safety? Why do other sports have sophisticated testing in place?

I'm not aware of any particular problems in this regard but certainly that's the basic method of determining which athletes compete in men's and which in women's competitions.

More sophisticated rules are of course possible, in principle, but one has to be aware of what that sophistication entails. A science-based determination of "fair" and "unfair" advantages in sports is a gargantuan undertaking. Not one that I would discourage, but we're talking about years if not decades of research before we reach that level of sophistication required for such potentially fairer rules. And that does not guarantee the social acceptance of the outcome.

 

[Jussi]

Do you think a "Female" listed as a person's gender on a passport is appropriate to ensure fairness and safety? Why do other sports have sophisticated testing in place?

Do you think believing the corrupt IBA's corrupt leader's word without any evidence is reason enough to question Khelif's gender?

 

[GKJ]

Except her eligibility was challenged prior to the Games and the IOC seemingly took a "progressive" view of things that, in theory, could have seen a biological man compete in the women's division.

Why didn't the IOC take more care to ensure this situation was dealt with before the Games? It is on them that it reached the level of frenzy that it did.

Because nobody gave two shits until transphobes got dogwhistled on Twitter

 

[Jussi]

2024 Olympics : « Imane Khelif was devastated to discover out of the blue that she might not be a girl ! »

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW. The Algerian boxer, battered by a controversy over her gender, had been training for months with an eye on the Olympics. Here is what her trainer has to say.

www.lepoint.fr

So this is the moment when she finds out…

Yes, and me too, even though her morphotype is rather peculiar. Be that as it may, people have a distinct physical appearance, but it's so different inside though. As for Imane, she was born a girl. She was raised as a girl. She has a girl's sensitivity. By this logic, why not test all the people whose abilities are superior to the others ? For instance, the French basketball player Victor Wembanyama, who is huge, for his growth hormones ? It's silly. Fortunately, everyone is different, or there wouldn't be any competition at all. Let's look at it from a performance perspective : what is competition ? It is a subject, man or woman, who is superior to the others.

And the Algerian team didn't know anything either ?

They are light years away from these biological issues. They were happy to have a good female boxer. She's a young woman, I'll say it again, who was raised as a girl.

So what happened after that thunderclap announcement ?

After the 2023 Championship, when she was disqualified, I took the initiative and contacted a renowned endocrinologist at the University Hospital Kremlin-Bicêtre in Paris, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane was indeed a woman, despite of her karyotype and her testosterone levels. He said : “There is a problem with her hormones, and with her chromosomes, but she's a woman.” That was all that mattered to us. We then worked with an Algeria-based doctor to control and regulate Imane's testosterone levels, which are currently in the female range. Some tests clearly show that all her muscle qualities and others have diminished since then. Today, on a muscular and biological level, she can compare with a woman-woman-woman.

 

[Garo]

Do you think a "Female" listed as a person's gender on a passport is appropriate to ensure fairness and safety? Why do other sports have sophisticated testing in place?

But there are multiple testings put in place to ensure fairness in sports. After all, plenty of athletes, male or female, get busted with PED usage.

There's zero evidence Khelif failed one of those during the Olympics. Or that her presence is in any way a threat to her fellow women for other insidious factors that people have no concrete evidence of existing.

 

[DaaaaB's]

There you go. Feel better now for calling out someone online. The athlete was ruled ineligible previously and the IOC did not setup any reasonable standards to clear this up.

I guess I should've asked if you feel better for spreading lies and supporting the bullying/harassment of a young woman who has done nothing wrong?

 

[Hasbro]

Do you think a "Female" listed as a person's gender on a passport is appropriate to ensure fairness and safety? Why do other sports have sophisticated testing in place?

If you are someone in a lather about men competing in women's sports, I'd think it would be a relief the largest sporting event in the world only had these two false alarms and nothing else.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Friendly reminder that she competed at the 2020 Olympics and boxed against other women for years without any controversy until yahoos got their marching orders from other idiots online. Not to mention that she hails from a country that …. Let’s just say has pretty subpar rights for transgender folks, so this whole crock of shit that some folks are pushing against her is nonsensical and stems entirely from a completely discredited Russian organization that just so happened to disqualify her after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer.

 

[GQS]

Friendly reminder that she competed at the 2020 Olympics and boxed against other women for years without any controversy until yahoos got their marching orders from other idiots online. Not to mention that she hails from a country that …. Let’s just say has pretty subpar rights for transgender folks, so this whole crock of shit that some folks are pushing against her is nonsensical and stems entirely from a completely discredited Russian organization that just so happened to disqualify her after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer.

Is it not possible that some female boxers might actually do have concerns boxing Khelif but didn't want to publicly express it for fear of backlash? We've seen it when an athlete expresses an opinion that some may not like, they're often immediate criticized and attacked for it rather than having people say 'Its OK to hold the opinion that you do, we'll just agree to disagree and just move on.' That would be the mature and sensible thing to do, but that rarely ever happens.

And speaking in a more general sense, it does seem like many female athletes have their concerns with competing with transgender athletes and probably intersex and others who may have an unfair advantage. This study doesn't cover intersex athletes, but it does show many elite female athletes when asked anonymously for their opinions that they're not comfortable with competing against transgender athletes.

BBC Elite British Sportswomen's Study 2024: Athletes on ‘difficult’ transgender debate

More than 100 elite British sportswomen tell the BBC they would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female categories in their sport.

www.bbc.com

More than 100 elite British sportswomen have told the BBC they would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female categories in their sport.

But many have expressed fears over sharing their opinion publicly because of concerns they would be seen as discriminatory.

One told the BBC "your career is over" if you speak on the subject, while another said: "You can receive abuse if you support it or don't support it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

The questionnaire was sent to British sportswomen above the age of 16 who compete for their country in senior sport, or at the highest level in their sport at top club level.

In total, 104 athletes said they feel "uncomfortable" or "very uncomfortable" about transgender women competing in the female category in their sport. Only 11 said they feel comfortable or very comfortable.

Asked how they would feel speaking publicly on the topic, 96 said they felt uncomfortable or very uncomfortable.

As I stated previously it seems like the most logical solution is to have different sports governing bodies work with the female athletes who compete in those sports and come up with guidelines as to who can and cannot compete so that everything is clear and there's no confusion.

 

[Albatros]

Intersex and transgender are two entirely separate subjects.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Is it not possible that some female boxers might actually do have concerns boxing Khelif but didn't want to publicly express it for fear of backlash? We've seen it when an athlete expresses an opinion that some may not like, they're often immediate criticized and attacked for it rather than having people say 'Its OK to hold the opinion that you do, we'll just agree to disagree and just move on.' That would be the mature and sensible thing to do, but that rarely ever happens.

And speaking in a more general sense, it does seem like many female athletes have their concerns with competing with transgender athletes and probably intersex and others who may have an unfair advantage. This study doesn't cover intersex athletes, but it does show many elite female athletes when asked anonymously for their opinions that they're not comfortable with competing against transgender athletes.

BBC Elite British Sportswomen's Study 2024: Athletes on ‘difficult’ transgender debate

More than 100 elite British sportswomen tell the BBC they would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female categories in their sport.

www.bbc.com

As I stated previously it seems like the most logical solution is to have different sports governing bodies work with the female athletes who compete in those sports and come up with guidelines as to who can and cannot compete so that everything is clear and there's no confusion.

While we’re inventing hypotheticals, the competitors might’ve also been unwilling to complain about the idea of competing against a lizard person out of fear of the backlash.

That’s how nonsensical you guys are sounding. Stop carrying water for a completely discredited and delegitimized organization like the IBA which has changed tunes on this multiple times and never actually shared any concrete information.

Also…

Intersex and transgender are two entirely separate subjects.

This. Discomfort about transgender opponents has nothing to do with her because, spoiler alert, she’s not transgender, despite a load of folks apparently spending way too much time assuming that she is.

 

[GQS]

Intersex and transgender are two entirely separate subjects.

They both fall under the category of athletes that people are discussing whether or not they should be competing with female athletes and for many this is a big concern for them. I think many people and especially the athletes themselves would like clear guidelines so that everyone knows who and who isn't allowed to compete in female sports instead of having this be an ongoing issue for an indefinite period of time.