Player Discussion Oliver Kylington

[FLAMESFAN]

You don't trade a player whose Mom is seriously ill just as you don't suspend him for not reporting (unless that is mutually agreed to).

At least not if you want any sort of street cred with players in the NHL or anywhere else for that matter.

Placing him into the NHL Employee Assistance Program where he could get counselling might offer some cap relief.

I think you have to seperate the emotion side from the buisiness side. Every player has different family struggles, and being traded is never at a "good" time. Also if a player doesn't report for any reason, they should be suspended. If a player is away for personal reasons, that is their choice - but if they are not playing for the club they shouldn't expect to be paid.

 

[CamPopplestone]

I think you have to seperate the emotion side from the buisiness side. Every player has different family struggles, and being traded is never at a "good" time. Also if a player doesn't report for any reason, they should be suspended. If a player is away for personal reasons, that is their choice - but if they are not playing for the club they shouldn't expect to be paid.

Or we just assume that whatever is going on, the team made the decision to deal with it how they seemed best. If they decided to pay him, that's their choice.

 

[Mazatt]

I think you have to seperate the emotion side from the buisiness side. Every player has different family struggles, and being traded is never at a "good" time. Also if a player doesn't report for any reason, they should be suspended. If a player is away for personal reasons, that is their choice - but if they are not playing for the club they shouldn't expect to be paid.

Separating the emotion side from the business side is an easy way to piss people off, and something notable for hockey is that the people who would be pissed off are also the core of the business.

Either way the reason not to trade Kylington isn't really due to personal reasons, it's because he's really, really good and invaluable for the teams ability to transition the puck. It'd just be a double-dick move to trade someone for having emotions, while also creating a massive hole.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Imagine thinking trading your best defenseman, the only elite one, on a stupidly team friendly contract...

is a business decision and not primal idiocy

 

[Ace Rimmer]

You don't trade a player whose Mom is seriously ill just as you don't suspend him for not reporting (unless that is mutually agreed to).

At least not if you want any sort of street cred with players in the NHL or anywhere else for that matter.

Placing him into the NHL Employee Assistance Program where he could get counselling might offer some cap relief.

They’ve already placed him on LTIR so there is cap relief.

Aside from missing Oliver the player I’m not sure what all of the hand wringing is about.

 

[Kranix]

I think you have to seperate the emotion side from the buisiness side. Every player has different family struggles, and being traded is never at a "good" time. Also if a player doesn't report for any reason, they should be suspended. If a player is away for personal reasons, that is their choice - but if they are not playing for the club they shouldn't expect to be paid.

Contracts are a thing

 

[Nanuuk]

They’ve already placed him on LTIR so there is cap relief.

Aside from missing Oliver the player I’m not sure what all of the hand wringing is about.

Uh, no they haven't so no cap relief.

 

[Kranix]

Uh, no they haven't so no cap relief.

Yes they have

 

[Mazatt]

Yes they have

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He is currently on regular IR like Stone, which I believe creates an extra roster spot but he is not currently on LTIR. There is no benefit to him being on LTIR either, since the Flames can currently accrue cap space with him out. If they needed the cap space however, I'm sure he could go on LTIR so the effect is really moot other than greater cap space later on in the season if he does come back and did not go on LTIR.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Yes they have

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He is currently on regular IR like Stone, which I believe creates an extra roster spot but he is not currently on LTIR. There is no benefit to him being on LTIR either, since the Flames can currently accrue cap space with him out. If they needed the cap space however, I'm sure he could go on LTIR so the effect is really moot other than greater cap space later on in the season if he does come back and did not go on LTIR.

The only tangible difference between IR and LTIR is the former requires you to miss 6 days, and the latter 24 days and 10 NHL games. Since both can be retroactively applied Kylington can be put on LTIR at any given moment the team wants since he’s already qualified for LTIR. That only allows us to exceed the salary cap which we have not though, so there’s no benefit for it now. However, it allows us at any given moment to add around 3.4 million in salary plus whatever accrued cap space we have at any given point. As of now at the deadline we will be able to add 5.5 million salary assuming the team thinks Kylington is gone for the season, and that number will oddly sky rocket once Stone is healthy and we shed Mackey’s 915k salary to the minors.

Since fundamentally for our team/Kylington’s current situation there is no difference between IR and LTIR you both were pretty much right.

 

[Yepthatsme]

I think you have to seperate the emotion side from the buisiness side. Every player has different family struggles, and being traded is never at a "good" time. Also if a player doesn't report for any reason, they should be suspended. If a player is away for personal reasons, that is their choice - but if they are not playing for the club they shouldn't expect to be paid.

We are beginning to become one of the bigger free agent drawing teams, routinely adding impact players (Tanev, Markstrom, Kadri) through free agency. We have a history of getting our own players to stay on remarkably team friendly deals. You don’t think that all changes when you start mistreating players? There’s a stark line between trading players and uprooting their family, and trading players whose family is reportedly going through deep personal trauma, and you better bet agents and players on our team will behave differently if we start crossing that line.

 

[Nanuuk]

Yes they have

No they have not. There is a difference between IR (no cap relief) and LTIR (cap relief).

 

[FLAMESFAN]

We are beginning to become one of the bigger free agent drawing teams, routinely adding impact players (Tanev, Markstrom, Kadri) through free agency. We have a history of getting our own players to stay on remarkably team friendly deals. You don’t think that all changes when you start mistreating players? There’s a stark line between trading players and uprooting their family, and trading players whose family is reportedly going through deep personal trauma, and you better bet agents and players on our team will behave differently if we start crossing that line.

How is that mistreating a player if they are granted leave? I know nothing about this paticular situation, but do you infact know there is "deep personal trauma"? Even if there is, it opens a Pandora's box. Most families have to go thru personal trama at times, some more serious than others. I do not think any org is mistreating a player if they grant them leave, but it is clear that it is an unpaid leave. Now if a player themselves are going thru addiction/depression, the player association takes care of salary do they not?

And to the poster above that claimed "contracts are a thing". Breach of contract is also a thing.

 

[Volica]

I think trading Oliver would be a mistake; imagine having a Tanev/Kylington pair as your bottom group so you can keep Tanev healthy and get the most out of Kylington.

Hanifin - Razzy
Big Bad Zad - Weeger
Kylington - Tanev
Stone

We're seeing what happens when you get a couple injuries and are forced to play guys who probably shouldn't be in the league like Mackey and Gilbert.

 

[Nanuuk]

The only tangible difference between IR and LTIR is the former requires you to miss 6 days, and the latter 24 days and 10 NHL games. Since both can be retroactively applied Kylington can be put on LTIR at any given moment the team wants since he’s already qualified for LTIR. That only allows us to exceed the salary cap which we have not though, so there’s no benefit for it now. However, it allows us at any given moment to add around 3.4 million in salary plus whatever accrued cap space we have at any given point. As of now at the deadline we will be able to add 5.5 million salary assuming the team thinks Kylington is gone for the season, and that number will oddly sky rocket once Stone is healthy and we shed Mackey’s 915k salary to the minors.
Since fundamentally for our team/Kylington’s current situation there is no difference between IR and LTIR you both were pretty much right.

I did determine that being placed in the league's employee assistance program does not give you cap relief (see Jakub Vrana, Detroit Red Wings).

Unless, of course, the club can place him on LTIR later for cap relief.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

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Thank you for the amazing 9 years

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He is currently on regular IR like Stone, which I believe creates an extra roster spot but he is not currently on LTIR. There is no benefit to him being on LTIR either, since the Flames can currently accrue cap space with him out. If they needed the cap space however, I'm sure he could go on LTIR so the effect is really moot other than greater cap space later on in the season if he does come back and did not go on LTIR.

Exactly

Long-term injury reserve could be an option for Oliver Kylington

Friends, we were a bit confused on Saturday afternoon when Brad Treliv...

flamesnation.ca

Haven't needed LTIR because they haven't exceeded the cap.

 

[Some Other Flame]

This is dumb

That rumor is obviously unverified. Makes no sense that the league would sign off on allowing Kylington to be on Injured Reserve for a family illness. When things like this happen - pregnancy, death in the family, etc., - players usually get a short leave of absence and that's get it. They don't get to stay away for months.

They're not putting Kylington or Stone in LTIR because the plan is to accrue cap space for a deadline add. LTIR relief does not accrue.

If Treliving randomly decided to trade Kylington, he'd immediately go out and give up more assets for another defenseman because that's just how he is. In other words, it's pointless.

Fans are impatient but very likely nothing significant happens until closer to the deadline. At that point, depending on the standings, Treliving will either stand pat, sign Coronato when his seasons done, trade the 2023 1st and a B prospect for top rental, or trade one of the big four prospects and a 2nd for a top rental.

 

[Yepthatsme]

How is that mistreating a player if they are granted leave? I know nothing about this paticular situation, but do you infact know there is "deep personal trauma"? Even if there is, it opens a Pandora's box. Most families have to go thru personal trama at times, some more serious than others. I do not think any org is mistreating a player if they grant them leave, but it is clear that it is an unpaid leave. Now if a player themselves are going thru addiction/depression, the player association takes care of salary do they not?

And to the poster above that claimed "contracts are a thing". Breach of contract is also a thing.

If most families go through personal trauma, and Kylington has needed over a month off and probably a lot longer, doesn’t logically that suggest this is a very serious situation? Man, fans are so bad at de-humanizing players. Can you imagine if you went on bereavement leave and your company laid you off/transferred you because they wanted immediate help instead. Or the impact on your workplace morale an event like that would cause? Alberta also legally requires people to be paid for a short period of bereavement leave, but many companies offer longer stretches, so no it’s not “clear that’s unpaid leave”.

I did determine that being placed in the league's employee assistance program does not give you cap relief (see Jakub Vrana, Detroit Red Wings).

Unless, of course, the club can place him on LTIR later for cap relief.

As far as I’ve found there’s literally no difference between qualifying for IR or LTIR other than the timeline. So him already being on IR means he can very easily be put on LTIR. Wonder if it’s a nice gesture to Kylington, most contracts are insured against LTIR and I have no clue how the insurance side of things works.

 

[Figgy44]

We are beginning to become one of the bigger free agent drawing teams, routinely adding impact players (Tanev, Markstrom, Kadri) through free agency. We have a history of getting our own players to stay on remarkably team friendly deals. You don’t think that all changes when you start mistreating players? There’s a stark line between trading players and uprooting their family, and trading players whose family is reportedly going through deep personal trauma, and you better bet agents and players on our team will behave differently if we start crossing that line.

You have to compartmentalize different things.

- There's can I and should I.
- There's legally obligated vs not legally obligated.

Depending on the situation, if we are not legally obligated to a player, we can do certain things. But then the question begs, should we do certain things. I don't know the specifics of the legality of "can we"? But I agree with you that either way, the "should we" likely is a no. The team is likely worse off long term for doing stuff like that, even if the team legally can do it.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

If most families go through personal trauma, and Kylington has needed over a month off and probably a lot longer, doesn’t logically that suggest this is a very serious situation? Man, fans are so bad at de-humanizing players. Can you imagine if you went on bereavement leave and your company laid you off/transferred you because they wanted immediate help instead. Or the impact on your workplace morale an event like that would cause? Alberta also legally requires people to be paid for a short period of bereavement leave, but many companies offer longer stretches, so no it’s not “clear that’s unpaid leave”.

As far as I’ve found there’s literally no difference between qualifying for IR or LTIR other than the timeline. So him already being on IR means he can very easily be put on LTIR. Wonder if it’s a nice gesture to Kylington, most contracts are insured against LTIR and I have no clue how the insurance side of things works.

You can bet that I'd be replaced if I took a 2 month+ leave. I sure wouldn't blame them for it either.
I lost my Dad my 1st year on a job where I was granted 4 days leave. It happened on the Sunday, and I had to go into work on the Friday. I couldn't do it, so I took an extra day. The Company docked me 1 days pay. Ya it was kinda shitty, but I knew what I was allowed.

Neither of us know what his situation is, but we can agree it must be pretty big if we still have no idea if/when he'll return. All I'm saying is that is fine, he's been granted a leave. Take as long as you need. But to expect that he would be fully paid for this leave, or even trade exempt is not very practical from a buisness point of view.

 

[Backlund]

You can bet that I'd be replaced if I took a 2 month+ leave. I sure wouldn't blame them for it either.
I lost my Dad my 1st year on a job where I was granted 4 days leave. It happened on the Sunday, and I had to go into work on the Friday. I couldn't do it, so I took an extra day. The Company docked me 1 days pay. Ya it was kinda shitty, but I knew what I was allowed.

Neither of us know what his situation is, but we can agree it must be pretty big if we still have no idea if/when he'll return. All I'm saying is that is fine, he's been granted a leave. Take as long as you need. But to expect that he would be fully paid for this leave, or even trade exempt is not very practical from a buisness point of view.

Not really the same rules for a company that is built on publicity and media. No NHL team in their right mind would suspend a player for not showing up because they went to be with a sick family member. The media backlash would be too much to deal with. Sponsors would distance themselves or even potentially pull out completely. Pretty much no upside and a downside not worth dealing with. It's the wrong way to go about it, especially in this day and age.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

You can bet that I'd be replaced if I took a 2 month+ leave. I sure wouldn't blame them for it either.
I lost my Dad my 1st year on a job where I was granted 4 days leave. It happened on the Sunday, and I had to go into work on the Friday. I couldn't do it, so I took an extra day. The Company docked me 1 days pay. Ya it was kinda shitty, but I knew what I was allowed.

Neither of us know what his situation is, but we can agree it must be pretty big if we still have no idea if/when he'll return. All I'm saying is that is fine, he's been granted a leave. Take as long as you need. But to expect that he would be fully paid for this leave, or even trade exempt is not very practical from a buisness point of view.

The Flames know that Kylington means more to their chances at a Stanley Cup than he does to their chances at winning sloppy October/November games.

If you had elite, top 0.025 percentile skills at your job, you too would have free reign to skip every meeting and pass projects off to others,

 

[Yepthatsme]

You can bet that I'd be replaced if I took a 2 month+ leave. I sure wouldn't blame them for it either.
I lost my Dad my 1st year on a job where I was granted 4 days leave. It happened on the Sunday, and I had to go into work on the Friday. I couldn't do it, so I took an extra day. The Company docked me 1 days pay. Ya it was kinda shitty, but I knew what I was allowed.

Neither of us know what his situation is, but we can agree it must be pretty big if we still have no idea if/when he'll return. All I'm saying is that is fine, he's been granted a leave. Take as long as you need. But to expect that he would be fully paid for this leave, or even trade exempt is not very practical from a buisness point of view.

Im sorry to hear that. But now say you have to switch jobs where they all pay the same. One gives you the legal required amount for that situation before threatening you with termination, one is understanding but pressures you back, and the last one is fully understanding, offers you all the time you need, and pays in full until your ready to return. Which do you choose? That’s how the NHL works, and every organization knows how you treat players makes a big difference in your likelihood to continue to attract players. Listen to testimonies from free agents we have brought in, they have all contacted players here who say amazing things about the team and business side.

 

[ItWasJustified]

Can you imagine if you went on bereavement leave and your company laid you off/transferred you because they wanted immediate help instead. Or the impact on your workplace morale an event like that would cause?

Normal people with normal jobs can't afford to stay away from work for 4+ months, no matter the reason.

 

[Bounces R Way]