Player Discussion Oliver Kylington

[OvermanKingGainer]

He was actually in the conversation for first overall. More than just a first rounder that fell, and his draft season had all kinds of shenanigans that helped that along.

Maybe not first overall, since that was McDavid's to lose, but he was in the conversation for 3rd overall with Barzal and Hanifin.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Maybe not first overall, since that was McDavid's to lose, but he was in the conversation for 3rd overall with Barzal and Hanifin.

Yeah I recall he was once upon a time in that discussion - but no idea when that discussion was taking place (2-3 years prior?) and that's why I lost my shit when they picked Phat Ras over him in the 2nd when he was still available.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Yeah I recall he was once upon a time in that discussion - but no idea when that discussion was taking place (2-3 years prior?) and that's why I lost my shit when they picked Phat Ras over him in the 2nd when he was still available.

When Kylingtom was 16 he was considered the most precocious defense prospect in the world. He was putting up better numbers than Erik Karlsson himself in the same leagues.

He was 17 in his draft year, and his stock plummetted. Even then I think I had him going top 15 in my HF mockdraft but that is lost to the deleted archives.

So I too was livid when we didn't take him at 54 (The Lidstrom spot seemed all too fitting for Kylington). Thankfully Tre was smart enough to trade up and take Kylington at 60.

 

[Yepthatsme]

So when a prospect pans out with us they do it on their own despite the Flames efforts, but when they don’t work it’s the Flames fault?
Everyone credits Sutter for “finally seeing what was there the whole time”, but it took Sutter 3 whole games last season to see he didn’t want Kylington as a regular. He gave him over 16 minutes in two of those games for the test trial as well. Kylington has never had more than brief moments of playing at the level he currently is this season, maybe our development strategy that’s working great for Dube, Andersson, and Mangiapane all from the same timeline isn’t the worst?

Dube: 5 years post draft, 1st year getting time as centre, getting 11:20 5v5 a game

Mangiapane: 2019-20 scored at a 20 goal pace with 13:00 a night
2020-21 scored at a 26 goal pace with 13:00 5v5, gets some PP time
2021-22 scoring at a 55 goal pace, actually had his even strength time cut but given more special team responsibility

Andersson: had a better season in the AHL then Kylington has had before getting full time status, played 2 full seasons as a 5D with spectacular results before getting a full season as a 4D, and is now just finally getting top pair minutes in his 4th full season.

Flames have employed a ‘learn to crawl before you can walk, learn to walk before you can run’ strategy for a while where you have to produce great results at the bottom before you can dream of slowly climbing up, and so far it’s worked great for everyone not named Bennett.

Yes it backfired on Bennett horrendously but every team has 2-3 players like that who don’t fit with a team’s developmental path for them, we wouldn’t have Lindholm if that weren’t the case.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

So when a prospect pans out with us they do it on their own despite the Flames efforts, but when they don’t work it’s the Flames fault?
Everyone credits Sutter for “finally seeing what was there the whole time”, but it took Sutter 3 whole games last season to see he didn’t want Kylington as a regular. He gave him over 16 minutes in two of those games for the test trial as well. Kylington has never had more than brief moments of playing at the level he currently is this season, maybe our development strategy that’s working great for Dube, Andersson, and Mangiapane all from the same timeline isn’t the worst?

Dube: 5 years post draft, 1st year getting time as centre, getting 11:20 5v5 a game

Mangiapane: 2019-20 scored at a 20 goal pace with 13:00 a night
2020-21 scored at a 26 goal pace with 13:00 5v5, gets some PP time
2021-22 scoring at a 55 goal pace, actually had his even strength time cut but given more special team responsibility

Andersson: had a better season in the AHL then Kylington has had before getting full time status, played 2 full seasons as a 5D with spectacular results before getting a full season as a 4D, and is now just finally getting top pair minutes in his 4th full season.

Flames have employed a ‘learn to crawl before you can walk, learn to walk before you can run’ strategy for a while where you have to produce great results at the bottom before you can dream of slowly climbing up, and so far it’s worked great for everyone not named Bennett.

Yes it backfired on Bennett horrendously but every team has 2-3 players like that who don’t fit with a team’s developmental path for them, we wouldn’t have Lindholm if that weren’t the case.

You know, it's possible for a team to do 90% right and still screw up the final 10%

You don't need to defend the Flames every time they take criticism. They didn't ruin Kylington or Bennett. They ruined their opportunity to get the most out of these two sooner, during the peak of their Cup window.

 

[Mazatt]

Flames have employed a ‘learn to crawl before you can walk, learn to walk before you can run’ strategy for a while where you have to produce great results at the bottom before you can dream of slowly climbing up, and so far it’s worked great for everyone not named Bennett.

I think, while for the most part it works, it's still a noticeable issue when the Flames have a guy who doesn't fit the typical development curve and don't adjust to ensure they are getting the most out of a promising player/high pick. Yeah, most players you have in the NHL you'd hope they can just make it work under the circumstances of coming up on the 4th line, but it's very hard to look at Bennett being given a lack of direction (seemingly a common theme between coaches prior to Sutter given Kylington's comments) and getting tossed around the bottom 6 thinking he just needs to b a grinder, and think that isn't at some part fault coming on the Flames for not being able to make exceptions and adjust to get the most out of prospects.

Who knows, maybe a "crawl before you walk; run" type thing could've worked with Bennett if they didn't launch him into the top 6 before toying with him. Maybe after the fact he could've got on track if the Flames had a proper coach who could communicate, but at some point there really should be adjustments for prospects in my mind, and a one-size fits-all approach is going to alienate prospects which is the opposite of the goal with them.

 

[DFF]

So when a prospect pans out with us they do it on their own despite the Flames efforts, but when they don’t work it’s the Flames fault?
Everyone credits Sutter for “finally seeing what was there the whole time”, but it took Sutter 3 whole games last season to see he didn’t want Kylington as a regular. He gave him over 16 minutes in two of those games for the test trial as well. Kylington has never had more than brief moments of playing at the level he currently is this season, maybe our development strategy that’s working great for Dube, Andersson, and Mangiapane all from the same timeline isn’t the worst?

Dube: 5 years post draft, 1st year getting time as centre, getting 11:20 5v5 a game

Mangiapane: 2019-20 scored at a 20 goal pace with 13:00 a night
2020-21 scored at a 26 goal pace with 13:00 5v5, gets some PP time
2021-22 scoring at a 55 goal pace, actually had his even strength time cut but given more special team responsibility

Andersson: had a better season in the AHL then Kylington has had before getting full time status, played 2 full seasons as a 5D with spectacular results before getting a full season as a 4D, and is now just finally getting top pair minutes in his 4th full season.

Flames have employed a ‘learn to crawl before you can walk, learn to walk before you can run’ strategy for a while where you have to produce great results at the bottom before you can dream of slowly climbing up, and so far it’s worked great for everyone not named Bennett.

Yes it backfired on Bennett horrendously but every team has 2-3 players like that who don’t fit with a team’s developmental path for them, we wouldn’t have Lindholm if that weren’t the case.

still have some of that good koolaid left?

the problem with Bennett has little to do with rushing, more to do with how they used him

they rushed Baertchi, they marinated Jankowski for 6 yrs, same result

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

at some point there really should be adjustments for prospects in my mind, and a one-size fits-all approach is going to alienate prospects which is the opposite of the goal with them.

+1

Every player (not just prospect) thrives in different situations. If you're not willing to experiment, then you're not interested in getting 100% out of your roster.

Championships are built out of maximizing your roster.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Maybe not first overall, since that was McDavid's to lose, but he was in the conversation for 3rd overall with Barzal and Hanifin.

He was seen as a potential 2nd overall before his draft year started then Eichel had a monster of a season and Kylington didn't progress as much as people thought he might.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Not an impossible theory that Bennett breaking out in Florida pushed the Flames to finally give Kylington a shot in the top four.

 

[Yepthatsme]

still have some of that good koolaid left?

the problem with Bennett has little to do with rushing, more to do with how they used him

they rushed Baertchi, they marinated Jankowski for 6 yrs, same result

I just can’t believe the general negativity around here about Kylington being mismanaged, when seemingly the process worked so well in turning him into what he is today? Four years ago he was in the AHL with Andersson, where he put up less points and was a -12 compared to Andersson’s +20.
Over the previous 3 years he got 94 games in with a total of 16 points and a -4. Last couple years he was almost good for a gaffe a game that would either end up in our net or close to it. The biggest positive I believe was putting him on the taxi squad instead of back down to the AHL. He was able to practice at the NHL level, and get direct supervision from our coaching staff and his game has been night and day different since then. Now that he has finally turned the corner, instead of rejoicing people are just being angry that it didn’t happen sooner?

Bennett was definitely mishandled, but it looks like the only solution people would have been happy with would be giving him the roles of centers who were vastly outplaying him at the time. It’d be like if we handed Dube Lindholm’s spot in the lineup to see if we have a 1C there. There was definitely a window when Monahan-Gaudreau were struggling when it should’ve been tried but the team went with trying to reignite the pair instead, and that’s a legit criticism to have.

Florida had an opening where they could try it, and now he has one of the easiest job in the league playing behind probably the best matchup 1C in the league currently with a top 5 winger on his flank, all on a team that’s absolutely rolling. Just like how we had an opening in the top right wing spot, and turned a 40 point Lindholm into a 70-80 point Lindholm. Sometimes player just need the perfect situation and reshaping your team until you find it isn’t always plausible.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

If people don’t think Bennett was mishandled, they need look no further than when Burke joined Sportsnet and he publicly said, he didn’t think he would ever be a topline player or scorer. Moreso that he needs to learn his role to excel in the NHL.

If that’s how your former president of hockey ops feels, and the current management is continually playing you with Brouwer and Jankowski, in a position you don’t love, and never giving you an extended look with your teams best players, how do think you’re going to feel about yourself? No wonder why he never looked or sounded confident here. Sam was not drafted to be a bottom 6 player, but he sure as heck was developed like one here.

 

[TheHudlinator]

If people don’t think Bennett was mishandled, they need look no further than when Burke joined Sportsnet and he publicly said, he didn’t think he would ever be a topline player or scorer. Moreso that he needs to learn his role to excel in the NHL.

If that’s how your former president of hockey ops feels, and the current management is continually playing you with Brouwer and Jankowski, in a position you don’t love, and never giving you an extended look with your teams best players, how do think you’re going to feel about yourself? No wonder why he never looked or sounded confident here. Sam was not drafted to be a bottom 6 player, but he sure as heck was developed like one here.

The fact that Treliving was hand picked by Brian Burke is the biggest red flag there is. The man is a clown.

 

[Mazatt]

If people don’t think Bennett was mishandled, they need look no further than when Burke joined Sportsnet and he publicly said, he didn’t think he would ever be a topline player or scorer. Moreso that he needs to learn his role to excel in the NHL.

If that’s how your former president of hockey ops feels, and the current management is continually playing you with Brouwer and Jankowski, in a position you don’t love, and never giving you an extended look with your teams best players, how do think you’re going to feel about yourself? No wonder why he never looked or sounded confident here. Sam was not drafted to be a bottom 6 player, but he sure as heck was developed like one here.

It is exceedingly frustrating to think that they worked Bennett with the pure intent of him being bottom 6er might not even denote that the Flames failed him by not communicating clearly, but they walked into the talks with the preconcieved notion that he wouldn't be a good scorer. There's something there about a failure on player evaluation, and then following it up by getting tunnel vision on what a guy could be.

 

[super6646]

3:42

Tell me when Hanifin can ever make that play.

 

[Anglesmith]

First of all, why does it need to be Kylington against Hanifin?

Secondly, Hanifin made a similar play short-handed earlier in the game to skate a puck from him own zone, beat multiple Leafs up the ice and get a 2-on-1.

Kylington turning out great is a good thing. Take it as a win.

 

[super6646]

First of all, why does it need to be Kylington against Hanifin?

Secondly, Hanifin made a similar play short-handed earlier in the game to skate a puck from him own zone, beat multiple Leafs up the ice and get a 2-on-1.

Kylington turning out great is a good thing. Take it as a win.

And what came out of that 2 on 1?

Look I'm saying this as someone who was mildly upset he wasn't the #6 dman last year over Nesterov, but he's the best dman on the Calgary Flames. Hanifin is a good #3-4, but Kylington is game breaking talent. I'm certainly not the biggest fan of stoking @OvermanKingGainer's ego because I'm sure he is very high on himself rn, but he got it right ffs. I cannot remember the last time the Flames had a dman with his combination of speed and hands that could be such a factor in transition. He had a great pre-season, and it has just carried over.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

First of all, if I'm @ing you here, don't take it personally or as a callout. I just find some of these comments amusing in retrospect. Take it with a laugh.

That being said, I think he's our most tradeable asset on D right now. I would consider him right now to be roughly the same calibre of prospect as Kulak

He's not as good as some will lead you to believe - especially on this board.

Valimaki is and always will be ahead of Kylington.

Kylingtons chances of a Norris are about as good as Bennett’s chances of an Art Ross.

Interpret that how you like.

Would we do Kylington for Jack Roslovic? Jets still haven't signed him. I think Jack's still got some untapped potential.

Honestly, I'd consider that. I've always like Roslovic, and even when Kylington was expected to be first round, I was still liking Roslovic over him.

Roslovic is way better than Kylington. Not sure why the Jets would entertain that tbh.

Roslovic and Chucky are friends iirc.

I would way rather expose a guy like Bennett than keep Kylington at the expense of exposing Gio or Tanev.

Its not about Gio, his age is something thats unavoidable. Its about Kylington and not really being any good at anything, except for skating. He simply doesn't have the shot, brains or physicality to make up for his shortcomings in other areas.

Mehhhhhh

Our #6d is hardly the problem here. I get that OKG likes to pick his fights over stuff like this but gimme a break. Our fwd group is total ass and he ain't solving that.

OvermanKingGainer said: ↑
"He'll make some mistakes, all top players do, and no one will bat an eyelash. his floor is Jon Klingberg in an expanded role and his ceiling is higher than that as he is actually a strong penalty killer, something the last two coaching staffs have failed to try him in."

To be honest, you have some great points but when you say something like that, nobody takes your post seriously.

and no. He’s not our best dman who for reasons is superior to the other under 24 years old who have been good for us. But whatever pushes that narrative another year.

 

[super6646]

First of all, if I'm @ing you here, don't take it personally or as a callout. I just find some of these comments amusing in retrospect. Take it with a laugh.

Hey, in my defense I wanted Kylington as the #6 over Nesterov and didn't like that he was waived.

Otherwise ya the take aged back.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

First of all, why does it need to be Kylington against Hanifin?

Because Hanifin is a 2nd pair defenseman being utilized as a top pair defenseman and Kylington is a top pair defenseman being utilized as a 2nd pair defenseman and the team is worse off for it.

It's not JUST Hanifin though. It's Andersson too. Both guys are so overrated. They're lucky as a pair they offset each other's weaknesses, even if the best that gets you is... whatever they are.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I'm sure he is very high on himself rn

I'm always high on myself. Don't need obvious results to obvious usage to account for that.

 

[Mobiandi]

They're lucky as a pair they offset each other's weaknesses, even if the best that gets you is... whatever they are.

I don't think they work because they have the same weaknesses

 

[User1996]

Lock this man up

 

[InfinityIggy]

First of all, if I'm @ing you here, don't take it personally or as a callout. I just find some of these comments amusing in retrospect. Take it with a laugh.

In hindsight mine is still correct

 

[Ace Rimmer]

In hindsight mine is still correct

If you didn't say it, I was going to.