Confirmed with Link: Oilers Do Not Match Broberg ($4.58M X2) & Holloway ($2.29M x 2) Offer Sheets | Oilers acquire STL 3rd '28 & Paul Fischer for Futures

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What Would You Do?


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Behind Enemy Lines

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Again, you're basing this entire scenario on basically one sentence from Friedman that was likely told to him by Broberg's agent.
Again, that's what's being reported. He is a credible reporter that doesn't run loose and free with things like salary offers and amounts. He actually revised his first information of belief Broberg had been offered $1.8 million aav.

Reported elsewhere that this situation happened when Holloway's inexperienced agent reached out to Broberg's guy to discuss the Oilers contract offer situation between their clients. Management Inactivity actually drove the players into this offer sheet scenario.
 

McDNicks17

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Again, that's what's being reported. He is a credible reporter that doesn't run loose and free with things like salary offers and amounts. He actually revised his first information of belief Broberg had been offered $1.8 million aav.

Reported elsewhere that this situation happened when Holloway's inexperienced agent reached out to Broberg's guy to discuss the Oilers contract offer situation between their clients. Management Inactivity actually drove the players into this offer sheet scenario.
Sure, that's been reported, but you can't be so naive that you think that's the whole story.

You're getting a tiny blurb from someone motivated to make their client look like a victim for PR's sake.
 

Yuke

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Jan 15, 2020
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Because he didn’t overpay broberg and Holloway by 3x to 2x their worth?
Nope, because it got to that point. He had full control of Holland and knew those guys were not signed.
I'm sure Philly would have taken Broberg for the 32nd pick last year if it was known Broberg wasn't happy. Etc.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Sure, that's been reported, but you can't be so naive that you think that's the whole story.

You're getting a tiny blurb from someone motivated to make their client look like a victim for PR's sake.
Speaking of naivety there was zero action by the team on its two young talents for a month and a half. One lowball offer made to each player. Of course the team is not going to bring up dirt or reveal its bargaining. They were exposed badly and paid a high price with the lowest CBA mandated return. There's a reason Bowman began his media conference with the team's 'hard work' after the offer sheet was laid. The media questions should have been how did this happen with over a month and a half from July 1. How did this happen with a guy who demanded a trade within this past season. What steps were taken to mend a troubled relationship. The outcome of offer sheets being made is irrelevant. How did this happen to two guys that played Cup Final games and were the team's rare young NHL ready players being counted on for cheap salary contracts and to grow into roles that help sustain a winning window.

Victim thinking is that an experienced management group headed by a former super agent could be this unprepared for one offer sheet let along two. Then losing them because of budgeting choices and inactivity on the two young homegrown guys.
 

McDNicks17

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Speaking of naivety there was zero action by the team on its two young talents for a month and a half. One lowball offer made to each player. Of course the team is not going to bring up dirt or reveal its bargaining. They were exposed badly and paid a high price with the lowest CBA mandated return. There's a reason Bowman began his media conference with the team's 'hard work' after the offer sheet was laid. The media questions should have been how did this happen with over a month and a half from July 1. How did this happen with a guy who demanded a trade within this past season. What steps were taken to mend a troubled relationship. The outcome of offer sheets being made is irrelevant. How did this happen to two guys that played Cup Final games and were the team's rare young NHL ready players being counted on for cheap salary contracts and to grow into roles that help sustain a winning window.

Victim thinking is that an experienced management group headed by a former super agent could be this unprepared for one offer sheet let along two. Then losing them because of budgeting choices and inactivity on the two young homegrown guys.
Repeating that over and over doesn't make it true.

JJ, a former agent with more experience than Broberg and Holloway's combined, just forgot that he had to talk to his RFAs. Sounds believable.
 

Fourier

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Is $1.8 million really a lowball offer to a player that spent the vast majority of the season in the AHL? Seems like a pretty generous offer to me.
Definitely not. I would have pegged Broberg at $1.3-1.5M at most before the OS. Cam York at $1.6 should have been an upper bound. Next year he has the 77th highest AAV amongst defensemen in the league. He has a higher AAV than Rasmus Andersson.

LA gave Jordan Spence $1.5M for example.
 
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Kamus

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Oct 21, 2005
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Is $1.8 million really a lowball offer to a player that spent the vast majority of the season in the AHL? Seems like a pretty generous offer to me.
Value is relative…. St.Louis is betting 4.7 million/year.

If he was only valued at 1.7 million then who cares and we should stop talking about that player…. Unless of course his value is greater….
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Repeating that over and over doesn't make it true.

JJ, a former agent with more experience than Broberg and Holloway's combined, just forgot that he had to talk to his RFAs. Sounds believable.
The organization wasn't prepared. They had a damaged relationship fester with one low ball contract offer and consequence of not 'talking' through their issues like a pro-active Carolina team did with Necas is that it is reported that drove Holloway's inexperienced agent to reach out to Broberg's agent and the Oilers left vulnerable to two offer sheets. Without active negotiation it led to a month and a half later getting smoked between the eyes with not 1 but 2 poison pill offer sheets from the market conditions they failed to recognize.

It's the question that needs to be asked. How did this happen? Why wasn't the issue mitigated with their own players? Why didn't they use their own successful staggered timelines to sign McLeod early August and later Bouchard in a less risk flat cap market?

Of course if you're an organization that missed all the signals and then pushed off negotiations to have the situation badly crater, it's' understandable why your PR work dodges around the issue.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Is $1.8 million really a lowball offer to a player that spent the vast majority of the season in the AHL? Seems like a pretty generous offer to me.
There's two reports of the offers being $1.1 x 2 for Broberg and term variations for Holloway at $850,000 x1 or $1 million x 2. Strickland suggest a Holloway $1.05 million x3 was also on the table. Friedman can't verify the x3 offer. So there's no reporting of a team offer at $1.8 million or anywhere near it.


The team clearly would have a hard price budget line in the sand for both young players. Had a second offer been made to both players and the differences seemingly insurmountable (adding the known issue between Broberg's camp and the team), they could have been pro-active in testing the trade market.

Getting McLeod done early August last year is a good blueprint. Clear they elevated from a first lowball offer after squeezing him the year before. Fast forward to this off-season and a pro-active move on McLeod nets a cost control 9th overall pedigree return.
 

Mr Positive

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That part wasn't reported.

Broberg's agent said they were asking for $1.8M. That doesn't mean the Oilers didn't want to sign him for that. They could have been negotiating around that number right up until the Blues dropped the bomb.
Imo the 1.8 number was just what the agents did to keep the Oilers negotiating. The Oilers would have agreed and sent the paperwork for 1.8, Broberg still wouldn't have signed. Broberg's agent wanted to prevent Broberg from getting traded, and so they needed to keep the Oilers believing that a deal would be signed, and so they played along


Him getting traded would have killed the offersheets because those new teams would not have the hardcore cap problems like the Oilers. The Oilers were seriously played. Broberg and his agent came out like bandits
 

Yuke

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Imo the 1.8 number was just what the agents did to keep the Oilers negotiating. The Oilers would have agreed and sent the paperwork for 1.8, Broberg still wouldn't have signed. Broberg's agent wanted to prevent Broberg from getting traded, and so they needed to keep the Oilers believing that a deal would be signed, and so they played along


Him getting traded would have killed the offersheets because those new teams would not have the hardcore cap problems like the Oilers. The Oilers were seriously played. Broberg and his agent came out like bandits
Problem with that theory is the new team would have probably been able to match. Player still makes his money.
 

Mr Positive

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Problem with that theory is the new team would have probably been able to match. Player still makes his money.
We weren't allowed to trade him after the offer sheet. I was saying that Broberg's agent was manipulating the Oilers to prevent them from trading Broberg before the offer sheet, because he wanted an offer sheet to happen. A trade would have stopped teams from bothering with an offer sheet. St.Louis would not have bothered, because of course a team like Chicago or Columbus would match.

Part of that is that Broberg would have preferred to go to St. Louis (a team he picked) rather than where we would have traded him. The other part is that Broberg got crazy money compared to what he would have got, not just in Edmonton but even in a team he was traded to, where no offer sheet was involved.

So yes, Broberg's agent played ball by negotiating the 1.8 with the Oilers but it wasn't a serious offer. It was just to trick the Oilers into believing that a negotiation was happening. We were played
 
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Yuke

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We weren't allowed to trade him after the offer sheet. I was saying that Broberg's agent was manipulating the Oilers to prevent them from trading Broberg before the offer sheet, because he wanted an offer sheet to happen. A trade would have stopped teams from bothering with an offer sheet. St.Louis would not have bothered, because of course a team like Chicago or Columbus would match.

Part of that is that Broberg would have preferred to go to St. Louis (a team he picked) rather than where we would have traded him. The other part is that Broberg got crazy money compared to what he would have got, not just in Edmonton but even in a team he was traded to, where no offer sheet was involved.

So yes, Broberg's agent played ball by negotiating the 1.8 with the Oilers but it wasn't a serious offer. It was just to trick the Oilers into believing that a negotiation was happening. We were played
Possible. I'm sure the agent, whose agency has over 90 players I believe was talking to GMs way before July 1
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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We weren't allowed to trade him after the offer sheet. I was saying that Broberg's agent was manipulating the Oilers to prevent them from trading Broberg before the offer sheet, because he wanted an offer sheet to happen. A trade would have stopped teams from bothering with an offer sheet. St.Louis would not have bothered, because of course a team like Chicago or Columbus would match.

Part of that is that Broberg would have preferred to go to St. Louis (a team he picked) rather than where we would have traded him. The other part is that Broberg got crazy money compared to what he would have got, not just in Edmonton but even in a team he was traded to, where no offer sheet was involved.

So yes, Broberg's agent played ball by negotiating the 1.8 with the Oilers but it wasn't a serious offer. It was just to trick the Oilers into believing that a negotiation was happening. We were played
Good interview here with Ferris (who looks like he's live from a prison cell).

This gives insight into RFA offer sheets - implies common practice to shop around when July 1 hits. Job is after all to get players their best deal. Mentions Mitch Marner having a couple offer sheet opportunities which included discussions with GM's and prospective owners but he wouldn't sign ... because the Leafs were negotiating and a feeling they were close to warrant that path. Not the case with Edmonton.

Discussion in-person with an Oiler management person at Hlinka Tournament with their formal offer following (with the player comps cited). I have to re-listen but believe he said nothing tabled before that only some general back and forth discussion.

Alludes to 3 prospective offer sheets on the table. Feels the Armstrong not doing it if buddy Kenny was there bunk inferring one of the teams exploring it had management that was also close to Holland. St. Louis stepped up with Armstrong being the guy to come up with the double offer sheet. Ferris also alludes they knew the two year term would be an issue for Edmonton with Draisaitl and Bouchard coming up.

 

nturn06

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That was reported prior to playing in the playoffs and going to game 7 of the SCF..
In other words you have no way of saying which report is true, you just find random reasons why one report sounds more plausible than another. These are easy to find.

At the end of the day, we have absolutely no idea what actually went on, but you seem to know exactly which rumour is correct and which is not.....
 

Fourier

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There's two reports of the offers being $1.1 x 2 for Broberg and term variations for Holloway at $850,000 x1 or $1 million x 2. Strickland suggest a Holloway $1.05 million x3 was also on the table. Friedman can't verify the x3 offer. So there's no reporting of a team offer at $1.8 million or anywhere near it.


The team clearly would have a hard price budget line in the sand for both young players. Had a second offer been made to both players and the differences seemingly insurmountable (adding the known issue between Broberg's camp and the team), they could have been pro-active in testing the trade market.

Getting McLeod done early August last year is a good blueprint. Clear they elevated from a first lowball offer after squeezing him the year before. Fast forward to this off-season and a pro-active move on McLeod nets a cost control 9th overall pedigree return.
I honestly don't see either of those offers as being historically lowballs given where the two players are right now. If you look at what comparable players have signed for recently Holloway at $1.1-1.3M and Boroberg at $1.3-1.5M would have been perfectly reasonable so those offers were close enough to keep negotiations going.

As I pointed out in a previous post LA just gave Jordan Spence $1.5M. Both players are 2019 picks. Spence of course does not have Broberg's draft pedigree, but he is a 23 year old RHD who has put up better numbers in both the AHL and the NHL than Broberg. Last year as a rookie he had 24 points in 71 games playing 14.5 minutes a game. If Borberg was arbitration eligible he would have had a tough time making a case for more than Spence. Soderstrom was a #11 in that draft and like Broberg has been up and down. Right now it looks like he is headed to Europe so draft pedigree alone does not get you money five years out.

If you want a comparator for Holloway I'd point to Lucas Reichel. Chicago gave him two years at $1.2M Riechel was picked just a few slots after Holloway. Last year he had 5 goals and 16 points in 65 games.

Unless the Oilers were told that the players had better offers elsewhere and that an OS was pending, which I seriously doubt they were, there is absolutely no reason for the Oilers to have anticipated this happening. OS have been extremely rare and better players than these two have gone through similar negotiations many many times since the cap came into play.

You just can't defend this kind of thing without completely rethinking how you structure your cap. This is why GM's have been so reluctant to go down this road. It only takes a very few successes to drive up the price of guys coming off their ECL for everyone. Maybe that is what should happen. But historically it most definitely has not been the case.
 
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Canovin

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Good interview here with Ferris (who looks like he's live from a prison cell).

This gives insight into RFA offer sheets - implies common practice to shop around when July 1 hits. Job is after all to get players their best deal. Mentions Mitch Marner having a couple offer sheet opportunities which included discussions with GM's and prospective owners but he wouldn't sign ... because the Leafs were negotiating and a feeling they were close to warrant that path. Not the case with Edmonton.

Discussion in-person with an Oiler management person at Hlinka Tournament with their formal offer following (with the player comps cited). I have to re-listen but believe he said nothing tabled before that only some general back and forth discussion.

Alludes to 3 prospective offer sheets on the table. Feels the Armstrong not doing it if buddy Kenny was there bunk inferring one of the teams exploring it had management that was also close to Holland. St. Louis stepped up with Armstrong being the guy to come up with the double offer sheet. Ferris also alludes they knew the two year term would be an issue for Edmonton with Draisaitl and Bouchard coming up.


No kidding. This guy looks greasy af. The type of guy that would throw you under the bus any chance he get
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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I honestly don't see either of those offers as being historically lowballs given where the two players are right now. If you look at what comparable players have signed for recently Holloway at $1.1-1.3M and Boroberg at $1.3-1.5M would have been perfectly reasonable so those offers were close enough to keep negotiations going.

As I pointed out in a previous post LA just gave Jordan Spence $1.5M. Both players are 2019 picks. Spence of course does not have Broberg's draft pedigree, but he is a 23 year old RHD who has put up better numbers in both the AHL and the NHL than Broberg. Last year as a rookie he had 24 points in 71 games playing 14.5 minutes a game. If Borberg was arbitration eligible he would have had a tough time making a case for more than Spence. Soderstrom was a #11 in that draft and like Broberg has been up and down. Right now it looks like he is headed to Europe so draft pedigree alone does not get you money five years out.

If you want a comparator for Holloway I'd point to Lucas Reichel. Chicago gave him two years at $1.2M Riechel was picked just a few slots after Holloway. Last year he had 5 goals and 16 points in 65 games.

Unless the Oilers were told that the players had better offers elsewhere and that an OS was pending, which I seriously doubt they were, there is absolutely no reason for the Oilers to have anticipated this happening. OS have been extremely rare and better players than these two have gone through similar negotiations many many times since the cap came into play.

You just can't defend this kind of thing without completely rethinking how you structure your cap. This is why GM's have been so reluctant to go down this road. It only takes a very few successes to drive up the price of guys coming off their ECL for everyone. Maybe that is what should happen. But historically it most definitely has not been the case.
Friedman reported the contract offer was $1.1 million with Barron's $1.15 million and Bahl's $1.05 million (2023) which seem like reasonable comparable. Not sure if those players had any contentious issues with their organizations or straight negotiation in which both were signed by respective teams by end of July. Broberg and Holloway were coming on successful play in the most difficult quality of competition so there appeared solid upward mobility in their games.

The Oilers showed with McLeod that they were willing to come off their initial lowball offer to pay to secure in-house, developed talent. You defend your cap by having a clear line in the sand cost threshold for your non-core roster pieces. They knew Broberg was a contentious, fractured relationship and could have been pro-active in managing it. Necas and Carolina looked unrepairable yet the player cites as having 'lots of talk' to find a way forward together with the relationship and financial. High alert on Broberg earlier to make a hard decision where your budget squeeze is comfortable or explore trade options including sign and trade. Clearly they misread Holloway completely.

It's quite possibly these two players are a proving point in an increasing trend in which young players are asserting choices for opportunity and money over winning. Oilers bet on veteran talent where they are and gambled an old paradigm, squeezing young players and winning team would hold. If you actively manage the relationships you can at least have a shot. Don't do it and we see the consequences of that approach.

We know that free agency is an inefficient market. With $5 million new money in the system and future big growth, the market conditions had changed. At least one GM (the guy who poached) publicly declared offer sheets were on the table back in June. As usual, media speculation was high it might happen with the cash infusion. Oilers prioritizing three super elite contracts coming up and already riding cap crunch with July 1 priority signings.

Actively manage your relationships with the kids, discuss how they fit, and table your better or best offer early. Assess and recalibrate. You know your strategy priorities are sign quality cheap veterans to win; get super elites under contract; and that you're going to be a cap threshold or overage. If can't find common group financially for your two pedigree talent early in the process, then shop their rights. A sign and trade is a win, win win for all notably preventing an inflationary market drive tool which carries low risk for a prospective poacher. A natural first stop inquiry would be St. Louis who allegedly wanted them both at trade deadline.

Risk management is a process to imagine the very worst possible situations and have a plan in place to mitigate. The Oilers management group missed all the signs and the consequences is the unpredictable bull market free agency responded to impose salaries well beyond their line in the sand for their two pedigree young players within a poor prospect pool. They danced on the head of a pin and got badly burned for pennies on the dollar holding to an old paradigm filled with high risk situations internally and externally.
 
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Louis Cypher

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In other words you have no way of saying which report is true, you just find random reasons why one report sounds more plausible than another. These are easy to find.

At the end of the day, we have absolutely no idea what actually went on, but you seem to know exactly which rumour is correct and which is not.....
The original poster was quoting something from when Broberg was playing in the minors and not getting called up. Where as I stated only that it was before he played in the playoffs and went to game 7 of the SCF.
 

Fourier

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Friedman reported the contract offer was $1.1 million with Barron's $1.15 million and Bahl's $1.05 million (2023) which seem like reasonable comparable. Not sure if those players had any contentious issues with their organizations or straight negotiation in which both were signed by respective teams by end of July. Broberg and Holloway were coming on successful play in the most difficult quality of competition so there appeared solid upward mobility in their games.

The Oilers showed with McLeod that they were willing to come off their initial lowball offer to pay to secure in-house, developed talent. You defend your cap by having a clear line in the sand cost threshold for your non-core roster pieces. They knew Broberg was a contentious, fractured relationship and could have been pro-active in managing it. Necas and Carolina looked unrepairable yet the player cites as having 'lots of talk' to find a way forward together with the relationship and financial. High alert on Broberg earlier to make a hard decision where your budget squeeze is comfortable or explore trade options including sign and trade. Clearly they misread Holloway completely.

It's quite possibly these two players are a proving point in an increasing trend in which young players are asserting choices for opportunity and money over winning. Oilers bet on veteran talent where they are and gambled an old paradigm, squeezing young players and winning team would hold. If you actively manage the relationships you can at least have a shot. Don't do it and we see the consequences of that approach.

We know that free agency is an inefficient market. With $5 million new money in the system and future big growth, the market conditions had changed. At least one GM (the guy who poached) publicly declared offer sheets were on the table back in June. As usual, media speculation was high it might happen with the cash infusion. Oilers prioritizing three super elite contracts coming up and already riding cap crunch with July 1 priority signings.

Actively manage your relationships with the kids, discuss how they fit, and table your better or best offer early. Assess and recalibrate. You know your strategy priorities are sign quality cheap veterans to win; get super elites under contract; and that you're going to be a cap threshold or overage. If can't find common group financially for your two pedigree talent early in the process, then shop their rights. A sign and trade is a win, win win for all notably preventing an inflationary market drive tool which carries low risk for a prospective poacher. A natural first stop inquiry would be St. Louis who allegedly wanted them both at trade deadline.

Risk management is a process to imagine the very worst possible situations and have a plan in place to mitigate. The Oilers management group missed all the signs and the consequences is the unpredictable bull market free agency responded to impose salaries well beyond their line in the sand for their two pedigree young players within a poor prospect pool. They danced on the head of a pin and got badly burned for pennies on the dollar holding to an old paradigm filled with high risk situations internally and externally.
I still don't see any evidence that the Oiler management missed a lot of signs. At least relative to how these things have been handled by almost every team since the cap came into play. And even if they had seen those signs at the very best I suspect that may have been able to keep Holloway at more than they would probably have wanted to pay.

I know that you have said they could have looked at a trade. That is true, but to be honest, with Broberg I doubt they would have gotten more than they did which turned out to be a decent 2nd and a far off 3rd. Maybe they get the third in 2025 or 2026 at best. A prospect going into his D+5 year that has still not completely established himself at the NHL level is not going to have a lot of value. The reality is that if he was cheap he would be worth much more to the Oilers than his trade value. But if he even at $1.8M it would have had impacts on the roster

You can set the return for Holloway at a 3rd plus for 4th plus Paul Fisher and Podkolzin effectively. Again, I am not at all sure you get more in a trade.

It may sound like St. Louis might have been willing to give more than this last year. If the rumors are correct they were prepared to deal Buchnevich for the two. On the surface this looks like a much more palatable deal. But the cap issue is what colors this deal significantly. There was no way the Oilers would have been able to extend Buch so he was at best a 1 1/2 year rental. But even then it is not so simple. To make that happen the Oilers would have had to shed at least one roster player, likely Ceci with no in house replacement and it may have made a deal for a guy like Henrique impossible.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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I still don't see any evidence that the Oiler management missed a lot of signs. At least relative to how these things have been handled by almost every team since the cap came into play. And even if they had seen those signs at the very best I suspect that may have been able to keep Holloway at more than they would probably have wanted to pay.

I know that you have said they could have looked at a trade. That is true, but to be honest, with Broberg I doubt they would have gotten more than they did which turned out to be a decent 2nd and a far off 3rd. Maybe they get the third in 2025 or 2026 at best. A prospect going into his D+5 year that has still not completely established himself at the NHL level is not going to have a lot of value. The reality is that if he was cheap he would be worth much more to the Oilers than his trade value. But if he even at $1.8M it would have had impacts on the roster

You can set the return for Holloway at a 3rd plus for 4th plus Paul Fisher and Podkolzin effectively. Again, I am not at all sure you get more in a trade.

It may sound like St. Louis might have been willing to give more than this last year. If the rumors are correct they were prepared to deal Buchnevich for the two. On the surface this looks like a much more palatable deal. But the cap issue is what colors this deal significantly. There was no way the Oilers would have been able to extend Buch so he was at best a 1 1/2 year rental. But even then it is not so simple. To make that happen the Oilers would have had to shed at least one roster player, likely Ceci with no in house replacement and it may have made a deal for a guy like Henrique impossible.
The market conditions changed. $5 million cash infusion after extended covid flat world. Teams spent a record $1 million on traditional free market spending and conditions were viable for offer sheeting.

They had a fractured relationship with Broberg who had asked for a trade this season. Similarly Carolina had a broken relationship with Necas and worked it out through an engaged, active approach to reconcile issues.

You can speculate a worse trade scenario for Broberg. Allegedly the trade deadline return for Broberg and Holloway was a top line winger Buchnevich with retention for two salary years. Clearly one team saw the potential in Broberg with that ask. As a reference point only, a Buchnevich retained gives the Oilers a great asset to contribute or flip as we saw them do pro-actively with McLeod. The McLeod trade is the model. Control your asset and flip when the value and fit within the organization changes. Target quality NHL prospects in return over a secondary pick.

The market filled the void to see two upward mobile young players and pushed the Oilers into a reactive corner. It's reasonable to bet a cheap asset 2nd round pick to take a qualified run at an age 23 big, mobile puck moving defenseman on upward trend from final four playoff competition and by all reports a stellar AHL season. NHL ready with all the hard miles of development time and expense invested by someone else's organization. Young defensemen are arguably the hardest positional asset to obtain (outside of elite centremen). It's high risk to let that sit on an aggressive spending market now normalized with expected annualized big cap bumps to come - something you monitor and post about.

Losing Holloway as a depth forward is far less consequential. Depth forwards are easiest to find with a supply glut able to drag replacement price. Forced to react, moving to Polzkolzin is a reasonable cheap replacement asset and cost wise.

It's quite likely they had the Ceci trade option in their hip pocket for a while. Maybe as far back as last trade deadline as Ceci was allegedly on the block. So there was viable movement available to find some dollars for their RFAs. But they misread the Broberg relationship and failed to see Holloway's camp looking at the roster spots being assigned to veterans and being unclear where he fit in the team's plans and future.

The Oilers gambled that an old paradigm and a Cup run team conditions would hold in terms of slow cooking its young NHL talent. Were the shoe on the other foot we would be hailing the genius of low cost talent acquisition at pennies on the dollar.

There's freedom with the reaction Oilers management failed to identify and mitigate. They have been forced into a reset which they can now better fill with a 2RD who actually shoots right. But it's still at a cost of young NHL ready talent because of their decision making and getting caught exposed.
 
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Fourier

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The market conditions changed. $5 million cash infusion after extended covid flat world. Teams spent a record $1 million on traditional free market spending and conditions were viable for offer sheeting.

They had a fractured relationship with Broberg who had asked for a trade this season. Similarly Carolina had a broken relationship with Necas and worked it out through an engaged, active approach to reconcile issues.

You can speculate a worse trade scenario for Broberg. Allegedly the trade deadline return for Broberg and Holloway was a top line winger Buchnevich with retention for two salary years. Clearly one team saw the potential in Broberg with that ask. As a reference point only, a Buchnevich retained gives the Oilers a great asset to contribute or flip as we saw them do pro-actively with McLeod. The McLeod trade is the model. Control your asset and flip when the value and fit within the organization changes. Target quality NHL prospects in return over a secondary pick.

The market filled the void to see two upward mobile young players and pushed the Oilers into a reactive corner. It's reasonable to bet a cheap asset 2nd round pick to take a qualified run at an age 23 big, mobile puck moving defenseman on upward trend from final four playoff competition and by all reports a stellar AHL season. NHL ready with all the hard miles of development time and expense invested by someone else's organization. Young defensemen are arguably the hardest positional asset to obtain (outside of elite centremen). It's high risk to let that sit on an aggressive spending market now normalized with expected annualized big cap bumps to come - something you monitor and post about.

Losing Holloway as a depth forward is far less consequential. Depth forwards are easiest to find with a supply glut able to drag replacement price. Forced to react, moving to Polzkolzin is a reasonable cheap replacement asset and cost wise.

It's quite likely they had the Ceci trade option in their hip pocket for a while. Maybe as far back as last trade deadline as Ceci was allegedly on the block. So there was viable movement available to find some dollars for their RFAs. But they misread the Broberg relationship and failed to see Holloway's camp looking at the roster spots being assigned to veterans and being unclear where he fit in the team's plans and future.

The Oilers gambled that an old paradigm and a Cup run team conditions would hold in terms of slow cooking its young NHL talent. Were the shoe on the other foot we would be hailing the genius of low cost talent acquisition at pennies on the dollar.

There's freedom with the reaction Oilers management failed to identify and mitigate. They have been forced into a reset which they can now better fill with a 2RD who actually shoots right. But it's still at a cost of young NHL ready talent because of their decision making and getting caught exposed.
Are we sure that St.Louis was retaining much salary? Lets say it was even $2M. Last year you still would have had to dump salary. Probably Ceci. I doubt they would have been willing to go into the playoffs with no real option but VD on the right side for the second pairing RHD.

As for this year, even if the retention was 2 years. That costs you one of Skinner or Arvidsson. So you can have the current roster, a decent 2nd, two thirds, Fischer and either Skinner or Arvidsson or you can have Buch with no chance of extending him. It's not clear to me that the St. Louis deal trumps what they now have.

We also don't know what the breakdown with Broberg is all about. If it is a dispute over usage, then again it is not clear that the Oilers were obviously in the wrong. Last year was a crucial year. Broberg had not shown that he was ready. If he wanted a slot on the left side this would have meant moving on from Kulak and essentially gifting him a spot with no option if it went sour. It could just as easily be a case of a kid who had a higher expectation of his own value wanting more than the team was prepared to give.

As for Necas, I don't really see the relevance. First off Necas was far more consequential to the Cane's and a much more established player. But more to the point, it is complete speculation that the Canes handled this any better than the Oilers would have in a similar situation which was literally a pure salary negotiation with few constraints on how they could manage his contract. The Canes had space to give Necas what he wanted without impacting any other significant moves.

The old paradigm was in place literally until this OS. You know I have great respect for you as a poster. I think you also know that I have complained about management lacking foresight and creativity for years. But in this case I honestly have not seen any compelling evidence that suggests that the Oilers could have played this differently and come out much if any better.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
16,336
17,989
Vancouver
Are we sure that St.Louis was retaining much salary? Lets say it was even $2M. Last year you still would have had to dump salary. Probably Ceci. I doubt they would have been willing to go into the playoffs with no real option but VD on the right side for the second pairing RHD.

As for this year, even if the retention was 2 years. That costs you one of Skinner or Arvidsson. So you can have the current roster, a decent 2nd, two thirds, Fischer and either Skinner or Arvidsson or you can have Buch with no chance of extending him. It's not clear to me that the St. Louis deal trumps what they now have.

We also don't know what the breakdown with Broberg is all about. If it is a dispute over usage, then again it is not clear that the Oilers were obviously in the wrong. Last year was a crucial year. Broberg had not shown that he was ready. If he wanted a slot on the left side this would have meant moving on from Kulak and essentially gifting him a spot with no option if it went sour. It could just as easily be a case of a kid who had a higher expectation of his own value wanting more than the team was prepared to give.

As for Necas, I don't really see the relevance. First off Necas was far more consequential to the Cane's and a much more established player. But more to the point, it is complete speculation that the Canes handled this any better than the Oilers would have in a similar situation which was literally a pure salary negotiation with few constraints on how they could manage his contract. The Canes had space to give Necas what he wanted without impacting any other significant moves.

The old paradigm was in place literally until this OS. You know I have great respect for you as a poster. I think you also know that I have complained about management lacking foresight and creativity for years. But in this case I honestly have not seen any compelling evidence that suggests that the Oilers could have played this differently and come out much if any better.
I was talking about the trade deadline alleged scenario gives a reference point to perceived market value of Broberg and Holloway. It was a top line forward with x2 retention. You contend the return could prospectively had been a 2nd and 3rd round pick on unproven talent. My bad for not being clear on this.

The McLeod trade is the model where young talent that doesn't fit your budget or window roster is flipped for qualified future, non-cap, pedigree talent. Build up a weak pipeline to help goal 1 of a sustaining winning window.

Necas is a reference point to managing relationships and actively problem solving. Of course he's a cornerstone player for them. It's a bet on homegrown talent you know and remedying issues to retain versus losing. He's a no brainer non-risk as an RFA offer sheet because the CBA value is high and likelihood low. Manage your relationships especially strained ones.

I really recommend listening to the interview with Broberg's agent, notably beginning at the 30 minute mark. Really fascinating stuff on how an agent works including re-evaluating a clients career and circumstances all the time. Most especially with restricted free agents.

But as he said, an agent working for his client's best interests, is going to explore all scenarios within the CBA. There's no reason to think Oilers experienced management under a former super agent wouldn't have anticipate this strategy or that there might be real, viable threat with the spending frenzy in new market conditions; a public related trade request by a good young pedigree player coming off quality ice-time in final four Cup competition.

He says that no formal offer was made. They made it known they were looking at $2 million on a one year deal. References LA client Spence signed at $1.5 was price point they imagined might be where it settled if there were no offer sheets. When a formal Oilers offer was made it was at $1.1 million. So with a gap of $900,000 on a prospective 1 year deal, the Oilers had three choices: i. submit a revised offer to try to bridge the gap to a final budget line in the sand they likely had;
ii. explore prospective trade options to understand potential market while also putting potential poachers on notice intent to match;
iii. don't do anything, wait and hope for capitulation (unlike their McLeod contract signing early last August).

Unfortunately the choice of iii. led to Holloway's agent reaching out to Ferris to discuss the negotiation dynamics with the Oilers which led them right into a poison pill double indemnity historic offer sheet. It's reasonable I believe for the Oilers in risk management to project risk of one offer sheet or even two offer sheets given their cap spending priorities and exposure; the changing market conditions of big cap infusion; even public comment by one GM saying offer sheets could be on the table.

I have great respect for you too. I'm a big advocate of Jeff Jackson and the vision he has for this team. But as Ferris lays out how he actively always evaluates and re-evaluates his client's circumstances and will uncover all situations to find best deal for them, I have to believe this is a similar practice that Jackson would utilize and the risk factors missed to control the situation.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
26,473
21,776
Waterloo Ontario
I was talking about the trade deadline alleged scenario gives a reference point to perceived market value of Broberg and Holloway. It was a top line forward with x2 retention. You contend the return could prospectively had been a 2nd and 3rd round pick on unproven talent. My bad for not being clear on this.

The McLeod trade is the model where young talent that doesn't fit your budget or window roster is flipped for qualified future, non-cap, pedigree talent. Build up a weak pipeline to help goal 1 of a sustaining winning window.

Necas is a reference point to managing relationships and actively problem solving. Of course he's a cornerstone player for them. It's a bet on homegrown talent you know and remedying issues to retain versus losing. He's a no brainer non-risk as an RFA offer sheet because the CBA value is high and likelihood low. Manage your relationships especially strained ones.

I really recommend listening to the interview with Broberg's agent, notably beginning at the 30 minute mark. Really fascinating stuff on how an agent works including re-evaluating a clients career and circumstances all the time. Most especially with restricted free agents.

But as he said, an agent working for his client's best interests, is going to explore all scenarios within the CBA. There's no reason to think Oilers experienced management under a former super agent wouldn't have anticipate this strategy or that there might be real, viable threat with the spending frenzy in new market conditions; a public related trade request by a good young pedigree player coming off quality ice-time in final four Cup competition.

He says that no formal offer was made. They made it known they were looking at $2 million on a one year deal. References LA client Spence signed at $1.5 was price point they imagined might be where it settled if there were no offer sheets. When a formal Oilers offer was made it was at $1.1 million. So with a gap of $900,000 on a prospective 1 year deal, the Oilers had three choices: i. submit a revised offer to try to bridge the gap to a final budget line in the sand they likely had;
ii. explore prospective trade options to understand potential market while also putting potential poachers on notice intent to match;
iii. don't do anything, wait and hope for capitulation (unlike their McLeod contract signing early last August).

Unfortunately the choice of iii. led to Holloway's agent reaching out to Ferris to discuss the negotiation dynamics with the Oilers which led them right into a poison pill double indemnity historic offer sheet. It's reasonable I believe for the Oilers in risk management to project risk of one offer sheet or even two offer sheets given their cap spending priorities and exposure; the changing market conditions of big cap infusion; even public comment by one GM saying offer sheets could be on the table.

I have great respect for you too. I'm a big advocate of Jeff Jackson and the vision he has for this team. But as Ferris lays out how he actively always evaluates and re-evaluates his client's circumstances and will uncover all situations to find best deal for them, I have to believe this is a similar practice that Jackson would utilize and the risk factors missed to control the situation.
I am curious where you heard that the deal was with double retention. All I can find is that the three names were talked about. One sight said that the cost would be Broberg, the Oilers first and and something like Bourgault for Buch at 50%. Some say that Buchnevich was unwilling to waive. Others say the Oilers baulked. But I can't even find anything that says the deal was all that close. Moreover, if there was double retention some other team would have had to be compensated.

Where I am in this is that even if you are conscious of the possibility of an OS, what can you do about it other than give the player more than you want to in advance. Even if they knew it was a possibility, it is still reasonable to proceed by weighing the risk of the loss, given possible contingencies, against the consequences of having to over spend to keep the players.

Bottom line for me, in hindsight I suspect it was going to be very hard to keep Broberg, but I do believe they could have perhaps been able to get Holloway done if they were more proactive. That said, I honestly don't know what the consequences of even a small overspend on Holloway to say $1.5M might have been given where they are right now. In particular I am not all that sure that the team would have been in a better position to win in the next two years had they done that.
 

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