OHL Expansion

[OMG67]

Thats actually a really cool concept.
I had no idea they were this far along when i was going back and forth with OMG telling him it was possible but this is great to see.
I guess this just goes to show that anything is possible with the right Mayor and Council just like i said!
The Article is behind a paywall so i couldn't really read it.

I never said it wasn’t possible. I said it is unlikely unless it is part of a larger development where the arena issue a small component. That is exactly the case here.

The developments are typically spearheaded by private investment. It is REALLY difficult for small communities to pass funding on to local taxpayers. Most budgets are already tight. You need the project to generate the new revenue required to offset the costs. That is tough to do in a stand alone arena not connected to a development.

THAT was my point. This proposed project as well as the Brantford development proves it.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I never said it wasn’t possible. I said it is unlikely unless it is part of a larger development where the arena issue a small component. That is exactly the case here.

The developments are typically spearheaded by private investment. It is REALLY difficult for small communities to pass funding on to local taxpayers. Most budgets are already tight. You need the project to generate the new revenue required to offset the costs. That is tough to do in a stand alone arena not connected to a development.

THAT was my point. This proposed project as well as the Brantford development proves it.

You mentioned Peterborough can't draw for an entertainment district like Brantford because they do not have any business there.
I think the fact that they have spent a bunch of money on drawings and design says otherwise was my point.
a wise man once said "build it and they will come"
This is great news for the team and community that they are exploring this.

 

[OMG67]

You mentioned Peterborough can't draw for an entertainment district like Brantford because they do not have any business there.
I think the fact that they have spent a bunch of money on drawings and design says otherwise was my point.
a wise man once said "build it and they will come"
This is great news for the team and community that they are exploring this.

I said “Event Centre”

The event Centre is like a Conference Centre that attracts transient business activity from outside the region. That is way different than an entertainment district.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I said “Event Centre”

The event Centre is like a Conference Centre that attracts transient business activity from outside the region. That is way different than an entertainment district.

I honestly don't know what you mean the discussion was never about a business conference room it's about an arena. -i could care less about a meeting room.

Another topic....
What is going on with TD Place once the 67s get their new arena? (I'm not familiar with the plan or project)

 

[OMG67]

I honestly don't know what you mean the discussion was never about a business conference room it's about an arena. -i could care less about a meeting room.

Another topic....
What is going on with TD Place once the 67s get their new arena? (I'm not familiar with the plan or project)

I wasn’t thinking in terms of an Entertainment district (although that is another option for sure). I was thinking in terms of a Business development which commonly is some form of Conference Centre. IT is a means of building business and attracting corporate interests into the community. When a Township wants to grow, it tries to add infrastructure that supports businesses relocating into the community (which creates population growth). I was more looking at that angle. When I said businesses wouldn’t go past Oshawa, that was why. Durham Region already has loads of support in that regard. There would be no reason for Peterborough to try to enter that market.

Lansdowne went through a major redevelopment project a decade ago. Of course, you are likley aware of what is there now. That was Phase One. Phase Two is going through acceptance. Phase Two replaces the North Side Stands (which also houses the Civic Centre) with New Stadium seating and a mixed use Ground Level Commercial build with two Residential Towers for Condo sales. That plan eliminates the Civic centre so the approved plan is to build a new 5500 seat arena just behind the East End Zone of the Football Stadium. Phase Two has three separate build components:
1> Build the new rink
2> Once the rink is completed, they will tear down the existing Civic Centre and stadium stands and build the new Stadium stands.
3> The 3rd component is the Mixed Use commercial/residential.

The current project completion dates:
1> Arena Q4 2027
2> North Side Stands Q2 2030
3> Mixed Commercial/Residential Q1 2034

The challenge right now is OSEG has not turned an operations profit in any year. There are questions as to whether they are the right firm to partner with for this latest phase. Personally, I don’t think they have an option. It is them or nothing. I cannot see them partnering with a separate entity. It would be a very muddy relationship.

Lansdowne 2.0

Background Lansdowne is a place of history and civic pride. For over 175 years, it has been a gathering place for neighbours, residents of Eastern Ontario and Western Québec, and for tourists from across Canada and around the world. It is a place of connection and

engage.ottawa.ca

 

[beastintheeast]

I never said it wasn’t possible. I said it is unlikely unless it is part of a larger development where the arena issue a small component. That is exactly the case here.

The developments are typically spearheaded by private investment. It is REALLY difficult for small communities to pass funding on to local taxpayers. Most budgets are already tight. You need the project to generate the new revenue required to offset the costs. That is tough to do in a stand alone arena not connected to a development.

THAT was my point. This proposed project as well as the Brantford development proves it.

Kingston built the new arena without private ownership. The idea was to attract outside interests in holding torunaments concerts and such. OH yeah and Springer filling the joint for Fronts games.

Frankly I miss the older arenas. I think I must be old but I enjoyed the M Center more than the new arena.

the Civic center holds a lot of charm I hope tha they do not totally remove that.

PMC is was great.

The one thing about these arenas and i look at the civic before teh Sens came was and is that it was welcoming and the fans were close enought that they made a difference when they cheered.


These bigger newer arenas just do not have the compfortable homeness that a small arena does.

BACK TO EXPANSION

CORNWALL IN THE EAST SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY CHOICE

wHERE IN THE WEST OF oNTARIO COULD YOU PUT A TEAM

 

[zaluty]

The old MCentre beast had the best fries in the world lol

Frankly I miss the older arenas. I think I must be old but I enjoyed the M Center more than the new arena.

 

[Otto]

Bryan Crawford was on during the first intermission of the Petes game tonight, he was asked about expansion and specifically about Toronto. He distanced himself from expanding into Toronto and said that's more about the GTA and mentioned York & Halton specifically

 

[beastintheeast]

The old MCentre beast had the best fries in the world lol

No argument for me brown's fries were a treat year round.

 

[OMG67]

Bryan Crawford was on during the first intermission of the Petes game tonight, he was asked about expansion and specifically about Toronto. He distanced himself from expanding into Toronto and said that's more about the GTA and mentioned York & Halton specifically

That makes a lot more sense. Halton/Milton would be interesting. Loads of $$$ in that area and pretty good hotbed for quality players that feed the OHL. I’m not sold as much on York Region. I think that’s a stretch.

The only issue with Halton is whether they can have two in the same region. With Burlington rumoured in the mix with a new arena on the way, could they have a Burlington AND Milton team? There is a lot of growth there though. It is really starting to push out from the lake. Seems like it is growing quickly.

Anyone from that area know what the future looks like around there?

 

[MJ5]

Maybe the new commissioner has some big plans for media/advertising rights but to me, expansion doesn't make sense because even with the influx of American players, as you add teams, the product is going to slowly get watered down.

I disagree with this last part big time.

Now that the college bound kids can use the CHL/OHL as a step to that next level, I don't think its going to water it down at all. Quality of the OA's might go down. But some kids also don't care about school.

 

[OMG67]

I disagree with this last part big time.

Now that the college bound kids can use the CHL/OHL as a step to that next level, I don't think its going to water it down at all. Quality of the OA's might go down. But some kids also don't care about school.

It depends on how many players shift to the CHL. Expansion sounds great but how many teams, we really cannot say. It will be interesting to watch the next two seasons to see what the realized impact will be.

Hypothetically speaking, to increase two teams without lowering the quality of the hockey, that requires ~46 players. That equals jsut over two players per team. So, each team is going to have to sign two guys they wouldn’t have otherwise signed. I’m not sure we will get there quick. Organically speaking, I think more of the younger players will but I am not sure we will get an exodus from the US route to equal that many defects into the OHL to support 2 Expansion teams next year (for example). But, I could be wrong! It will be fun to watch though.

 

[Leviathan899]

OHL green lights aggressive expansion plan

After a recent vote allowing Canadian Hockey League players to join men’s Division I NCAA hockey starting next season, one of the CHL's leagues is now eyeing expansion.

www.sportsnet.ca

This is a strange article.

Can anyone really see the USHL and OHL joining? I don't just based on travel.

When are people going to give up on the GTA and Hamilton? If people want to watch Junior hockey, they have the OJHL, which is pretty good hockey. The cost is just not with it as well as so much going on in the city

With the low attendance and fact that Hamilton could not handle it where in Ontario could you see an expansion team or do you think it would all be expanding to Upper NY, Pen Michigan

It feels weird seeing talk of expansion at the same time Frank Saravelli is writing a story about the precarious situation hockey is in. How can both be true?

 

[Leviathan899]

Overall Attendance isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Last season only 4 teams saw an attendance decrease over the previous season. And one of those was Brantford, comparing to the much larger Hamilton arena. So far this season, as of last weekends games 8 teams are down year over year, but only Niagara, Owen and, and Ottawa were also down at the end of last season, the other 5 teams showed an increase. Attendance in the OHL is very much cyclical. Brampton in particular was second last season in year over year attendance and are down 6.6% this year Sarnia was #1 last season and is down 6.04%

Overall the league is up 2.49% year over year after being up 3.8% last season. If ever there were a time for expansion it's now.

Last season was the third highest attendance league wide, in history. This year could be higher. You have Ptbo with 2 wins and they’re selling games out. The OHL is thriving and is going to get the best players going forward imo.

 

[Leviathan899]

The Peterborough Memorial Centre was renovated in 2003. It was modeled after the Barrie Molson Centre. It is a bit outdated but still useable.

For some reason I love the PMC, it’s cozy lol but they do need to get a new rink asap.

 

[Petes1987]

For some reason I love the PMC, it’s cozy lol but they do need to get a new rink asap.

As long time Peterborough Petes fan I would fine to watch Petes games in there for the rest of my life. Their so much history in that historic building. However I know it needs to be replaced as it is outdated as an OHL facility. After a new facility is built the Peterborough Memorial Centre will live on as a community rink.

 

[OMG67]

For some reason I love the PMC, it’s cozy lol but they do need to get a new rink asap.

The blind reality is the people that love the old rinks typically only care about the hockey on the ice and could care less about anything happening around it. Those are true fans but true fans don’t pay the bills. The casual dumb fans do. Those are the ones that come a few times a year and spend on all the things the true fan that is there every game buys once or twice a year (souvenirs, programs, jerseys etc). To attract the casual fans, you need the newer rink. The casual fan doesn’t care as much about the hockey on the ice. They are going for the experience or because everyone else in their circle/group is going.

Corporate types that want to entertain clients want the amenities so they can shower their guests. Can’t do that at the PMC.

The game is about $$$. $20mil franchise price tags. IT is fine for the odd team like the Petes to stagnate in an old building. They do “well enough.” But, sooner or later, they won’t be doing “well enough.” Those extra revenue dollars they aren’t getting will catch up to them. It does for almost all teams at some point. That is what drives the need for new arenas, “revenue.”

You need a team on the ice to cultivate a fanbase. But after that, you need to scale for growth. The old rinks aren’t scalable for growth. The risk of staying in an older rink is stagnation. Your fan base dies off. Difficulty cultivating that replacement fan base. The irony is the small towns like OS and Peterborough seem more immune to it. That’s great to be honest. But, it always catches up.

Cornwall
Belleville
Newmarket
St Mike’s
North Bay
Guelph
Hamilton
Detroit

All teams that didn’t have a suitable arena since 1990 and it caught up to them. Fortunately, Guelph and North Bay managed to get teams back. Brampton, Mississauga, and Plymouth with new rinks were unable to cultivate a fanbase. So, it is not like it works without fail.

 

[beastintheeast]

The blind reality is the people that love the old rinks typically only care about the hockey on the ice and could care less about anything happening around it. Those are true fans but true fans don’t pay the bills. The casual dumb fans do. Those are the ones that come a few times a year and spend on all the things the true fan that is there every game buys once or twice a year (souvenirs, programs, jerseys etc). To attract the casual fans, you need the newer rink. The casual fan doesn’t care as much about the hockey on the ice. They are going for the experience or because everyone else in their circle/group is going.

Corporate types that want to entertain clients want the amenities so they can shower their guests. Can’t do that at the PMC.

The game is about $$$. $20mil franchise price tags. IT is fine for the odd team like the Petes to stagnate in an old building. They do “well enough.” But, sooner or later, they won’t be doing “well enough.” Those extra revenue dollars they aren’t getting will catch up to them. It does for almost all teams at some point. That is what drives the need for new arenas, “revenue.”

You need a team on the ice to cultivate a fanbase. But after that, you need to scale for growth. The old rinks aren’t scalable for growth. The risk of staying in an older rink is stagnation. Your fan base dies off. Difficulty cultivating that replacement fan base. The irony is the small towns like OS and Peterborough seem more immune to it. That’s great to be honest. But, it always catches up.

Cornwall
Belleville
Newmarket
St Mike’s
North Bay
Guelph
Hamilton
Detroit

All teams that didn’t have a suitable arena since 1990 and it caught up to them. Fortunately, Guelph and North Bay managed to get teams back. Brampton, Mississauga, and Plymouth with new rinks were unable to cultivate a fanbase. So, it is not like it works without fail.

I am going to disagree. The m centre had a lot more going for it than the present location. Fans went to the games for the atmosphere the fries and the coffee. The on ice ppl product was secondary. The challenge was that it needed an upgrade facilities wise for players.
Parking was better access was better. The issue was that acoustics sucked.

If they had gutted it and redone with the same seating it was perfect.

Going to the game getting a coffee then joining one of the hot stove groups before the game and at intermission was awesome.
Being able to walk around the arena and make noise. That's the allure of small rinks

 

[OSA]

That makes a lot more sense. Halton/Milton would be interesting. Loads of $$$ in that area and pretty good hotbed for quality players that feed the OHL. I’m not sold as much on York Region. I think that’s a stretch.

The only issue with Halton is whether they can have two in the same region. With Burlington rumoured in the mix with a new arena on the way, could they have a Burlington AND Milton team? There is a lot of growth there though. It is really starting to push out from the lake. Seems like it is growing quickly.

Anyone from that area know what the future looks like around there?

My business is right on King Road. I know the area very well.

It’s a large piece of vacant land directly off of the 403. In our area, it’s unusual to see such a sparse piece of property that is not a part of the Niagara escarpment. The parcel of land has plenty of room so I suspect there will be a number of other developments in addition to the arena.

Aldershot is a village in the westernmost part of Burlington. It’s grown quite a bit in population due to the number of condominiums that have been constructed. Physical growth of the area however is constrained by Lake Ontario in the south and the escarpment to the north.

There is easy access for an off ramp from 403 eastbound, however, westbound access will be a challenge due to the presence of the the North Service Road and the limitations of King Road being only 2 lanes. Obviously they can expand King Road and move the Service Rd, but those infrastructure alterations will take a long time to complete.

Much like Mississauga/Brampton, I worry that the arena might be a nightmare to get to for a 6pm door opening/7pm puck drop on a weekday. Traffic is horrendous.

That being said, Burlington/Oakville has about 450,000 residents, the area is very affluent, and I think enough people would be willing to make the trek. Waterdown, once the fastest growing community in the country, is just to the north and people from there would actually have some of the easiest, most direct access to the arena. There are about 30,000 residents in Waterdown now. I wouldn’t expect the team to draw much from the rest Hamilton, however.

I believe this property is owned by the the very wealthy Paletta family. It was once rumoured that they were quietly attempting to secure an NHL franchise and were intending to build the team’s arena on this site. That obviously didn’t work out if it was true, but who knows, that may be the reason the land has sat undeveloped for so long.

Personally, I find this very exciting as an OHL fan. I hope it works out. The business will definitely be purchasing season tickets.

 

[HockeyPops]

It feels weird seeing talk of expansion at the same time Frank Saravelli is writing a story about the precarious situation hockey is in. How can both be true?

My read on the Saravelli article was that it was the US development that was particularly precarious.

 

[EvenSteven]

There’s also a very good discussion on this stuff, not only OHL expansion but CHL expansion possibilities, on the latest episode of Spittin Chiclets. Episode number 533. The last 20 or 25 minutes of the episode.

 

[coolhandluc44]

My read on the Saravelli article was that it was the US development that was particularly precarious.

Is there a link to this article. I
Mainly just want to see how much of a train wreck his latest article is

 

[three dog night]

How about Elmira New York

 

[OSA]

Here an interior shot of the Muskegon arena from last night that I found on X for anyone interested

 

[Matthew L Wilson]

Elmira has tried numerous times with different leagues (ECHL, FHL, and now NAHL) without much success. The arena was built on a budget in 2000, and it shows. It holds a little under 4,000 and it is truly one of the worst arenas I have ever been in.