OHL Expansion

[ScoutLife4]

That would take league to 23 teams. Any idea of a 24th?

No idea on any thing that’s for sure everything is just speculation until OHL announces

 

[OMG67]

Brampton has 10 years free rent from what I understand so the timeline doesn’t line up for the Belleville relocation.

Yes, that is my understanding as well. But, if the free rent still keeps them in the red financially, they may look for a better option.

 

[Slap Shot Rick]

Muskegon's Colonial Hockey League/United Hockey League teams averaged a low of 2595 fans in 96-97 and a high of 3638 in the 98-99 season. The USH Lumberjacks averaged a low of 2171 in the 2-11-12 season and a high of 2968 in 2018-19.

 

[OSA]

If the CHL/OHL is going to be competing with the NCAA for commitments from 18-20 year old players, then the OHL experience for the player has to be compelling enough to stay
(Yes, I’m sure there will be plenty of other factors as well).

Factually…..Brampton is awful. The city is awful. The arena is awful. The fan support is awful. The player experience, I’m sure, is awful.

Brampton is an embarrassment for the league and is a repellent for players who might otherwise want to stay in the OHL.

Porter Martone will likely be playing in the NHL next year. But, at the stage of life he’ll be in at that time, I wouldn’t blame him from exploring his options next year if he’s not. With a nice ELC in hand and playing on just about any other team in the OHL, I think the decision for him is a lot easier. In Brampton, not so much IMO.

 

[OMG67]

If the CHL/OHL is going to be competing with the NCAA for commitments from 18-20 year old players, then the OHL experience for the player has to be compelling enough to stay
(Yes, I’m sure there will be plenty of other factors as well).

Factually…..Brampton is awful. The city is awful. The arena is awful. The fan support is awful. The player experience, I’m sure, is awful.

Brampton is an embarrassment for the league and is a repellent for players who might otherwise want to stay in the OHL.

Porter Martone will likely be playing in the NHL next year. But, at the stage of life he’ll be in at that time, I wouldn’t blame him from exploring his options next year if he’s not. With a nice ELC in hand and playing on just about any other team in the OHL, I think the decision for him is a lot easier. In Brampton, not so much IMO.

The players will have a little more leverage and they will use it. There is nothing wrong with that. If Brampton makes their run this year then they will want to move him next year anyway. The difference is he would be moved int he same manner as Barlow and Rehkopf, early. I think we may start seeing a ot more of that. This year has been an anomaly int hat regard but It may simply be a change in strategy that stays as standard practise.

The same goes for Misa. I am surprised if he wants to stay in Saginaw. Not that there is anything wrong with Saginaw as a franchise but they busted their nut last year. They really can’t make a push this year without pulling a Peterborough and trading a whole ‘07 draft class plus their ‘08 Zhilkin. We have seen how that worked out for Peterborough. I know the fans have suggested they really want to see this through the draft and I can understand that but that is a big ask from the player and a risk for the franchise if he doesn’t return next season. They met their main goal which was winning the Memorial Cup on home ice. They really don’t have anything to prove IMO. Start the rebuild. Trade Misa this year and Parekh next year. Restock the draft picks and gain a couple good young players.

 

[Petes1987]

The OHL does not need anymore American based teams. If they do any expansion they need to add teams in places like Cornwall, Hamilton and Chatham not Muskegon and Youngstown.

 

[OMG67]

Hypothetically speaking, let’s assume Youngstown and Muskegon get expansion teams. How does the Conference landscape change? Does Erie stay in the west because of Youngstown? Does Youngstown go to the West and Erie to the East and then they create the rivalry schedule for Erie and Youngstown? I cannot see any existing teams in the Western conference move to the Eastern Conference to balance that out 11 and 11.

 

[Petes1987]

Hypothetically speaking, let’s assume Youngstown and Muskegon get expansion teams. How does the Conference landscape change? Does Erie stay in the west because of Youngstown? Does Youngstown go to the West and Erie to the East and then they create the rivalry schedule for Erie and Youngstown? I cannot see any existing teams in the Western conference move to the Eastern Conference to balance that out 11 and 11.

They would likely move Owen Sound and Sault Ste Marie to the East. Decades ago the Greyhounds and the Sudbury Wolves played in the Leyden Division before Belleville and Cornwall joined the OHL. Owen Sound is the closest Western Conference team to the East.

 

[OMG67]

They would likely move Owen Sound and Sault Ste Marie to the East. Decades ago the Greyhounds and the Sudbury Wolves played in the Leyden Division before Belleville and Cornwall joined the OHL. Owen Sound is the closest Western Conference team to the East.

They don’t need to move two teams, just one.

When SSM was in that division, there were no Michigan teams. They were issolated. It was Windsor as the closest team going south. Then London. It made more sense for them to go HWY 17.

I think it makes more sense to pull Erie over to the East. Then mess around with the schedule to make the travel work.

It may also make more sense to wait until they can add four teams. They don’t necessarily have to add those two teams next year.

What if they award the Burlington Franchose and have them play out of a smaller arena in the interim or maybe Mississauga. Then award the expansion teams to Belleville but have them play out of Cornwall for a couple seasons. I know it isn’t ideal but that sort of makes a little more sense.

 

[Kingpin794]

The OHL does not need anymore American based teams. If they do any expansion they need to add teams in places like Cornwall, Hamilton and Chatham not Muskegon and Youngstown.

I’ve heard this a few times. Not often but there is a segment of people that share this sentiment. My question is why? If there is a talent pool that you will now be getting larger access too, would it not make sense to expand into that pool? Are people getting hung up on the name? The AHL has Canadian teams. There are western teams in the ECHL etc. The league has been developing American players for decades now. Should they ban Americans? That seems silly. 5 out of 22 teams seems about representative of the player population of the league, especially going forward.

 

[Otto]

The OHL does not need anymore American based teams. If they do any expansion they need to add teams in places like Cornwall, Hamilton and Chatham not Muskegon and Youngstown.

So.. two places that don't have a suitable arena, and another that screwed over the last team they had?

They would likely move Owen Sound and Sault Ste Marie to the East. Decades ago the Greyhounds and the Sudbury Wolves played in the Leyden Division before Belleville and Cornwall joined the OHL. Owen Sound is the closest Western Conference team to the East.

The Soo Ste. Marie to the east talk needs to stop. It's been shown here time and time again that they are in the best division right now.

 

[HockeyPops]

I wonder about 3 conferences as a possibility.

 

[OMG67]

I wonder about 3 conferences as a possibility.

Or two conferences each with three divisions of four.

Ottawa-Kingston-Peterborough-Oshawa
North Bay-Sudbury-Barrie-Brampton
Niagara-Erie-Youngstown-Brantford

Owen Sound-Guelph-Kitchener-(Burlington?)
London-Windsor-Sarnia- (Chatham?)
SSM-Flint-Saginaw-Muskegon

Maybe something close to that depending on how the two additional expansion teams flesh out.

 

[OSA]

I came up with something like this….

Do away with the divisions and have 2 Conferences of 11 teams


NORTHWEST

Sault Ste. Marie
Saginaw
Muskegon
Flint
Windsor
Sarnia
London
Owen Sound
Barrie
Sudbury
North Bay


SOUTHEAST

Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Brampton
Guelph
Kitchener
Brantford
Niagara
Erie
Youngstown


I know this would sometimes involve travelling through inter-conference communities to get to intra-conference games, but teams are already doing this now.

Importantly, this arrangement can serve to increase parity in the league which has become concentrated in the West over the past 20 years or so by transferring a strongly supported big club like Kitchener to the opposing Conference that London/Windsor belong to. Guelph fits in this category too.

Some rivalries may be hampered (Kitchener/London, of course, which is not ideal) but these could be picked up to some degree with additional cross-conference regular season games. However, the league stands to gain much more in other natural, would-be rivalries - Kitchener/Brantford/Guelph - Niagara/Youngstown/Erie - Soo/Sudbury/North Bay - and this is especially true for the playoffs. The only franchise that I see as possibly being somewhat adversely affected due to loss of rivalries would be Owen Sound (and I’d feel terrible because I love Owen Sound). That being said, the Attack would still keep London, be able to have additional cross-conference games with Guelph and/or Kitchener and possibly see Barrie in the playoffs semi-regularly which currently doesn’t happen.

An added benefit….the GTA can be bypassed by some teams travelling east/west (Ottawa, Kingston, Erie, Youngstown, maybe Niagara, Belleville if they return) by accessing highways through NY State


Longest trips for each Conference

Muskegon - North Bay
952 km (~9 hrs)

Ottawa - Youngstown
833 km (~8 hrs)


Teams would play 40 intra-conference games and 22 inter-conference games which leaves 6 additional games to play around with for rivalries, whether they be within the Conference or outside. Maybe the league bumps the schedule to 70 games and increases that number to 8.

Anyway, always appreciate seeing other people’s comments. Please let me know what you think.

 

[HockeyPops]

You could knock that 9 hr Muskegon/North bay trip off if you kept North Bay in the South/East. In fact, I'm not sure there is any reason to move Sudbury and Barrie out of there either? Keep Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie where they are. All you need to change from what we have today is to flop Erie and Brantford, while adding Muskegon and Youngstown:

NORTH/WEST

Sault Ste. Marie
Saginaw
Muskegon
Flint
Windsor
Sarnia
London
Owen Sound
Guelph
Kitchener
Brantford

SOUTH/EAST

Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Brampton
Niagara
Erie
Youngstown
Barrie
Sudbury
North Bay

 

[EvenSteven]

I came up with something like this….

Do away with the divisions and have 2 Conferences of 11 teams


NORTHWEST

Sault Ste. Marie
Saginaw
Muskegon
Flint
Windsor
Sarnia
London
Owen Sound
Barrie
Sudbury
North Bay


SOUTHEAST

Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Brampton
Guelph
Kitchener
Brantford
Niagara
Erie
Youngstown


I know this would sometimes involve travelling through inter-conference communities to get to intra-conference games, but teams are already doing this now.

Importantly, this arrangement can serve to increase parity in the league which has become concentrated in the West over the past 20 years or so by transferring a strongly supported big club like Kitchener to the opposing Conference that London/Windsor belong to. Guelph fits in this category too.

Some rivalries may be hampered (Kitchener/London, of course, which is not ideal) but these could be picked up to some degree with additional cross-conference regular season games. However, the league stands to gain much more in other natural, would-be rivalries - Kitchener/Brantford/Guelph - Niagara/Youngstown/Erie - Soo/Sudbury/North Bay - and this is especially true for the playoffs. The only franchise that I see as possibly being somewhat adversely affected due to loss of rivalries would be Owen Sound (and I’d feel terrible because I love Owen Sound). That being said, the Attack would still keep London, be able to have additional cross-conference games with Guelph and/or Kitchener and possibly see Barrie in the playoffs semi-regularly which currently doesn’t happen.

An added benefit….the GTA can be bypassed by some teams travelling east/west (Ottawa, Kingston, Erie, Youngstown, maybe Niagara, Belleville if they return) by accessing highways through NY State


Longest trips for each Conference

Muskegon - North Bay
952 km (~9 hrs)

Ottawa - Youngstown
833 km (~8 hrs)


Teams would play 40 intra-conference games and 22 inter-conference games which leaves 6 additional games to play around with for rivalries, whether they be within the Conference or outside. Maybe the league bumps the schedule to 70 games and increases that number to 8.

Anyway, always appreciate seeing other people’s comments. Please let me know what you think.

Self serving Ranger fan here.

I get it that because of geography, it’s near impossible to come up with the perfect answer to realignment. But:

Any realignment involving Kitchener moving to the east is, in my opinion, a severe kick in the groin.

Loss of games vs London is the #1 no go for me. IMO, it’s really the only rivalry for the Rangers that matters. If it were up to me we’d play London 8 times a year instead of Guelph. Games vs Guelph are blah. Send them to the east by themselves. We’ve had more heat in games vs Windsor over the years than Guelph.

Add in the massive increase in travel time having to deal with Toronto traffic and the border in the same conference? Either one or the other. Not both please.

 

[Otto]

You could knock that 9 hr Muskegon/North bay trip off if you kept North Bay in the South/East. In fact, I'm not sure there is any reason to move Sudbury and Barrie out of there either? Keep Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie where they are. All you need to change from what we have today is to flop Erie and Brantford, while adding Muskegon and Youngstown:

NORTH/WEST

Sault Ste. Marie
Saginaw
Muskegon
Flint
Windsor
Sarnia
London
Owen Sound
Guelph
Kitchener
Brantford

SOUTH/EAST

Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Brampton
Niagara
Erie
Youngstown
Barrie
Sudbury
North Bay

This makes far more sense. That said, I doubt they go with a two division format. Any expansion will be planned to eventually 4 teams with each of the 4 divisions having 6 teams each

 

[EvenSteven]

You could knock that 9 hr Muskegon/North bay trip off if you kept North Bay in the South/East. In fact, I'm not sure there is any reason to move Sudbury and Barrie out of there either? Keep Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie where they are. All you need to change from what we have today is to flop Erie and Brantford, while adding Muskegon and Youngstown:

NORTH/WEST

Sault Ste. Marie
Saginaw
Muskegon
Flint
Windsor
Sarnia
London
Owen Sound
Guelph
Kitchener
Brantford

SOUTH/EAST

Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Brampton
Niagara
Erie
Youngstown
Barrie
Sudbury
North Bay

I’d be happy with that. But your south/east has teams from three of the four far reaching corners of the league that I mentioned below. Not sure that would fly.

I don’t think you can have teams in the same conference from three of the four outer or far reaching corners of the league.

Ottawa / Kingston
Sudbury / North Bay
Soo / Muskegon
Erie / Youngstown

Sending Erie east (Youngstown would have to go with them), would give them teams in three corners.

 

[frontsfan67]

Still think a US division should be looked at. Erie, Youngstown, flint, Saginaw, muskegon. If they need to add another team in- I would have to assume that team could be Windsor perhaps? They’re right on the border of Detroit anyways and and only 70 mins away from Flint.

Not to mention they wouldn’t have to deal with the border as much staying in the US and playing eachother 6 times for a total of 36 games each with each team. If they go with the 6 they would still have 28 games to play the remaining teams but with this expansion idea I would propose they would increase the games to a 72 game season instead of 68. The dub used to have 72 games anyways and just changed it this year.

With this they’d have 36 games in their own division and 36 with the remaining teams

 

[donjohnson]

I asked this question a while ago and I think it got lost in a Pete's Arena hijack...we all know why Muskegon and Youngstown want to join the OHL but why does the OHL want to expand?

The answer to all questions is money but in most pro sports it has to do with television/advertising dollars. The OHL does not have a television contract like the NBA or NHL does. If a team is added in Muskegon Michigan, how does that benefit the league??? I'm sure there's a one-time expansion team cost that would be paid to the league but beyond that, what is the benefit??? More teams means the talent would be spread out, and a potential expansion draft which will water down the competition.

If there's no additional money coming into the league, why go through the trouble of expanding???

There has not been a team added to the league since 1998 (Brampton)...all other "new" teams were a relocation of an existing franchise. If expansion was lucrative for the league, wouldn't they have added at least 1 additional team in the last 25 years???

Maybe the new commissioner has some big plans for media/advertising rights but to me, expansion doesn't make sense.

 

[the dog]

Belleville and Cornwall will be in mix later.

 

[OMG67]

This makes far more sense. That said, I doubt they go with a two division format. Any expansion will be planned to eventually 4 teams with each of the 4 divisions having 6 teams each

I think the six divisions of four teams is more likely when they are at 24 teams. The way the divisions align make sense on the fringes.

SSM - Flint - Saginaw - Muskegon
Ottawa - Kingston - Peterborough - Oshawa
Erie - Niagara - Youngstown - Brantford
North Bay - Sudbury - Barrie - Brampton

Those four divisions make sense and are the divisions with the most sensitive travel. The rest of the puzzle pieces would fit in depending on how the league expands:

Windsor - Sarnia - London + Expansion
Owen Sound - Guelph - Kitchener + Expansion

Burlington seems likely at this point. They easily fit into a division with OS/KIT/GUE…. But we cannot say for sure until we know what the 24 locations are.

 

[HockeyPops]

I like the look of those 6 divisions, as long as expansions were burlington and chatham. Otherwise throw brantford with london, burlington with niagara, and then adjust the east for Cornwall or whatever the 24th city ends up being.

 

[Northern Maroon]

The need for divisional alignment along pleasant geographic lines isn't necessary.

In the NHL Atlantic division, the 2 Florida based teams mix with 6 North East teams. So it is ok to separate Boston from the 3 NYC area teams (400+ miles away) who in turn, are grouped with Columbus and Carolina. (500+ miles away)

SSM last I looked, played 6 extra games with the East (North) by having Sudbury 6 times and North Bay 4. In turn, Conference rivals Owen Sound and Erie only meet the Greyhounds once at home and on the road.

The league can make up the inter-conference as necessary for any 2 teams that face some far distances. Come play off time, all 20 teams line up in their bracket as necessary regardless of how many divisional or inter-conference games they played.

What is easiest to make it all 'fair' is to line up the playoffs 1 - 16. Then group the divisions along 2, 3 or 4 marketable names. Just keep the rule that you visit every barn at least once a year.

The Branch Division:
London
Oshawa
Kitchener
Windsor
Ottawa
Peterborough

The Gretzky Division:
Brantford
SSM
Guelph
Niagara
Sarnia
OS
Kingston

The McDavid Division:
Barrie
Brampton
Erie
Flint
Saginaw
North Bay
Sudbury

 

[Otto]

The need for divisional alignment along pleasant geographic lines isn't necessary.

In the NHL Atlantic division, the 2 Florida based teams mix with 6 North East teams. So it is ok to separate Boston from the 3 NYC area teams (400+ miles away) who in turn, are grouped with Columbus and Carolina. (500+ miles away)

SSM last I looked, played 6 extra games with the East (North) by having Sudbury 6 times and North Bay 4. In turn, Conference rivals Owen Sound and Erie only meet the Greyhounds once at home and on the road.

The league can make up the inter-conference as necessary for any 2 teams that face some far distances. Come play off time, all 20 teams line up in their bracket as necessary regardless of how many divisional or inter-conference games they played.

What is easiest to make it all 'fair' is to line up the playoffs 1 - 16. Then group the divisions along 2, 3 or 4 marketable names. Just keep the rule that you visit every barn at least once a year.

The Branch Division:
London
Oshawa
Kitchener
Windsor
Ottawa
Peterborough

The Gretzky Division:
Brantford
SSM
Guelph
Niagara
Sarnia
OS
Kingston

The McDavid Division:
Barrie
Brampton
Erie
Flint
Saginaw
North Bay
Sudbury

Difference between the NHL and the OHL is revenue. The divisions are aligned geographically due to travel costs. There is zero chance of your alignment happening