OHL Expansion

[frontsfan67]

The only reason Peterborough draws more than Brantford is because Brantford's arena is smaller. Last season Brantford was at 104.3% capacity, Peterborough 86.6% . This season Brantford is 103.5% capacity, Peterborough 81%. There's a need for a new arena in Brantford because they are bursting at the seams.

The last place Pete’s are still selling the place out here and there and have very loyal fans to the team. During their championship run didn’t they sell out almost every game in the playoffs or am I dreaming that? Pete’s could use an arena of 4500-4700 and still make it work. Believe capacity is 3700 right now but I could be wrong.

 

[OMG67]

So you knew about the new arena in Branford that’s coming all along?
Peterborough seems to have concerts and shows at that arena every week from what I see and have no issue drawing already.
It will get to the point (probably has already) where the Maintenance cost of operating that building costs more then it’s worth keeping it operational if they do not replace it.
That building is literally falling apart in places right now.
Maybe Peterborough decides next year to build an entertainment district for all we know.
That arena is pasts its life.
They cants really renovate that building there is no real estate to do it where it sits unless they removed all parking.
No one thought Brantford would have a new arena either though I get it.
For having no business in Peterborough awfully strange how the boards and walls are plastered so try sponsorship from local businesses.

No. I didn’t. What I said at the beginning is that for these new arenas, there needs to be a larger development project attached to it. I said that before I even knew about Brantford. I opened the link you sent and saw it was part of a $1.5bil development project. That supports what I said previously about new arenas being a part of a larger development project. It was the same thing in Ottawa with the Lansdowne redevelopment project. They are building a new rink so they can replace the existing one and pop a new mixed commercial/residential development where it currently sits…. Plus new stadium seating replacing the north side stands for the Red Blacks.

That is how most sports complexes of that size are justified. A new arena as a stand alone venue “typically” cannot support itself as a self contained business plan. It is getting really difficult to get those built with significant levels of public funding. As soon as private investment is used, it is almost always part of a redevelopment project where the developer gets the public lands for free with an agreement to build public infrastructure.

 

[ScoutLife4]

The last place Pete’s are still selling the place out here and there and have very loyal fans to the team. During their championship run didn’t they sell out almost every game in the playoffs or am I dreaming that? Pete’s could use an arena of 4500-4700 and still make it work. Believe capacity is 3700 right now but I could be wrong.

Peterborough added seats around the whole rink to add an extra couple hundred and sold them out too it was a pretty great atmosphere.
Peterboroughs draw was limited to the arena size for that playoffs.

 

[Section7fan]

I’ve been to north bay twice and their arena is way better than the PMC.

The PMC smells like a cheap apartment and is crazy outdated- even has box tvs in the concourse. Seats are real small too not a lot of leg room, benches on opposite sides, square corners, old bathrooms etc. HOWEVER there is automatic soap dispensers in the bathrooms.

If they aren’t going to build a new arena at some point they’re definitely due for a big renovation.

Can’t say I’ve ever noticed a smell. The concourse is much better than NB imo. I usually go to watch hockey on the ice, not a tv. The seats are small and the leg room could be better but I find the same issue with the kingston arena but at least there’s usually nobody there so it’s easier to stretch

 

[Petes1987]

There has been rumblings about the City of Peterborough wanting to get out of owning a hockey team and find a private owner.
With that said it was mentioned they have a long list of conditions like building a new arena and keeping the team safe from relocation.
I doubt any owner is going to agree to fund a new arena at a couple hundred million + price tag and spend 15M on a hockey team though.

The City of Peterborough are not the owners of the Peterborough Petes. They are community like the Kitchener Rangers are. The team is run by a board of directors that are the trustees for the team. It is that body which would make the decision to sell the team and I have not heard that they are considering selling unless it is because of problems of getting a new facility built. Any money from the sale of the team would go to minor sports which was the conditions when the Montreal Canadiens gave the community the team.

 

[beastintheeast]

Agree 100% . I have a hard time seeing it work, but if there going to try, I’d say do something abstract or a little less traditional.

It would be a great project for someone who is super rich and wants to own a hockey team, loves junior hockey and like EvenSteven said won’t mind loosing money for multiple years to get it up and ready. I don’t know how many people are out there lol

Toronto will not work and has not worked because
A. it is Junior hockey failed before every time people with money tried to put a team not associated with the leafs.
B. University students can go to Uni games which are cheaper and have their almamater playing.
c. Rent for MLG or varsity would be cost prohibitive and ice time as well as facilities would be an issue.
d. No one lives in Toronto anymore
e. Toronto has too much entertainment and things fighting for the dollars.
Consider billeting and costs to operate.

If the fan base is there and there is an owner interested than Cornwall would be interesting.
Belleville would need the sens to leave and I don't see that happening.

 

[beastintheeast]

I’ve been to north bay twice and their arena is way better than the PMC.

The PMC smells like a cheap apartment and is crazy outdated- even has box tvs in the concourse. Seats are real small too not a lot of leg room, benches on opposite sides, square corners, old bathrooms etc. HOWEVER there is automatic soap dispensers in the bathrooms.

If they aren’t going to build a new arena at some point they’re definitely due for a big renovation.

Consider where it is and the ownership and fan base. They like it the teamhas history and as long as it is functional it is cheaper than building a new arena

 

[ScoutLife4]

The City of Peterborough are not the owners of the Peterborough Petes. They are community like the Kitchener Rangers are. The team is run by a board of directors that are the trustees for the team. It is that body which would make the decision to sell the team and I have not heard that they are considering selling unless it is because of problems of getting a new facility built. Any money from the sale of the team would go to minor sports which was the conditions when the Montreal Canadiens gave the community the team.

I just read about this and realized it's ran as a none profit organization and doesn't have an owner.
It just has a board that operates it.
I always thought the city of peterborough was the owner of the team. (I guess technically it is but not on paper)
This would be such a strange business move if they couldn't afford to run the team and had to sell who would get the money from the sale?
I remember back in 2016 when they had released to the media they would be bankrupt in 4 years without major concessions on their lease agreement.
The board is just volunteers with no ownership stake from what i understand.
Can a not for profit even be sold?
What a strange operation.

 

[OMG67]

I just read about this and realized it's ran as a none profit organization and doesn't have an owner.
It just has a board that operates it.
I always thought the city of peterborough was the owner of the team. (I guess technically it is but not on paper)
This would be such a strange business move if they couldn't afford to run the team and had to sell who would get the money from the sale?
I remember back in 2016 when they had released to the media they would be bankrupt in 4 years without major concessions on their lease agreement.
The board is just volunteers with no ownership stake from what i understand.
Can a not for profit even be sold?
What a strange operation.

Based on what I know of these arrangements, the “ownership” is held in trust with conditions of sale etc. all part of the founding language of the Trust. The trust would hold the team and any funds from the sale of the team (and annual profits) would remain in the trust and the Trustee’s would administer the funds from the trust. The relationship wouldn’t change. I have no reason to believe @Petes1987 is not accurate when he says financial instruments from the sale of the team would go to support minor hockey programs. If that is set in stone, then the trustee’s would funnel funds annually to minor hockey programs from the trust. In that scenario, the funds would likely be invested and Minor Hockey would get the “legacy” money which is the after tax and admin profits from Investment Income. This would be somewhat similar to the legacy funding from the 1988 Calgary Olympics that funds Amateur Sport in Calgary.

That doesn’t mean that some of the money couldn’t be allocated to a new rink or a renovation of the existing if it justifies the terms of supporting minor hockey. For example, if there is a multi-pad facility that allows for minor hockey growth, there is a possibility that some of the $20mil from the sale of the team could go towards a project like that. I am speculating though.

But, as I mentioned previously, a new arena isn’t likely without private investment. Private Investment isn’t likely without it being a part of a development project where the City likely provides the land for free as well as some public funding or tax diversion etc. If there are multiple rinks as part of the development, maybe the Trust sells the team cheaper than market value because it supports Minor Hockey etc? A lot of potential moving parts for these types of deals.

 

[donjohnson]

So everyone has done a good job picking apart the pros/cons of various cities where expansion makes (or doesn't make) sense.

My question is this...why does the OHL want to expand?

Of course the answer to all questions is money but in most pro sports it has to do with television/advertising dollars. The OHL does not have a television contract like the NBA or NHL does. If a team is added in Muskegon Michigan, how does that benefit the league??? I'm sure there's a one-time expansion team cost that would be paid to the league but beyond that, what is the benefit??? More teams means the talent would be spread out and (potentially) will water down the competition making an inferior product and if there's no additional money coming into the league, why go through the trouble of expanding??? There has not been a team added to the league since 1998 (Brampton)...all other "new" teams were a relocation of an existing franchise. If expansion was lucrative for the league, wouldn't they have added at least 1 additional team in the last 25 years???

Maybe the new commissioner has some big plans for media/advertising rights but to me, expansion doesn't make sense because even with the influx of American players, as you add teams, the product is going to slowly get watered down.

 

[NorthernVoice]

I just read about this and realized it's ran as a none profit organization and doesn't have an owner.
It just has a board that operates it.
I always thought the city of peterborough was the owner of the team. (I guess technically it is but not on paper)
This would be such a strange business move if they couldn't afford to run the team and had to sell who would get the money from the sale?
I remember back in 2016 when they had released to the media they would be bankrupt in 4 years without major concessions on their lease agreement.
The board is just volunteers with no ownership stake from what i understand.
Can a not for profit even be sold?
What a strange operation.

There's a lot of misinformation around the Petes in here, they're not looking to sell at all and they're not losing money. The deal with the city was restructured years ago to ensure their long term viability and sustainability and their off ice fortunes have done nothing but increase since then.

They do want a new arena and it will be tied to (re)development of downtown. It's been a process years and years in the making and they still don't have a site, so there remains a lot of local skepticism.

Generally, the appetite for tax payer money going to sports arenas is waning almost everywhere and for good reason. If they can't prove it will have significant spin off benefits and help towards the revitalization of downtown, it wont and shouldn't happen.

In the meantime, the PMC isn't really limiting the Petes in any way in terms of remaining competitive or profitable. It's a barn but it has more charm and history than about 15 other cookie cutter arenas combined and because it is near capacity most nights with dedicated fans, it's a way better environment than rival division arenas like Ottawa and Kingston.

Even Oshawa, which has great fans so can match the environment can feel pretty sterile. Going to games in the old arena packed in tightly was so much fun there. I don't really care to go these days, it just feels like any other game in any other rink but I guess based on the comments in here that's what people want.

 

[NorthernVoice]

Frankly, I find this whole thread and discussion around the Peterborough franchise/arena pretty depressing. The fact that the Petes are a non profit who are succeeding on and off the ice without taking millions and millions of dollars of tax payer money OR acting as just another vehicle to move money from working class people to a multi-millionaire/corporation owner should be commended and celebrated.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Frankly, I find this whole thread and discussion around the Peterborough franchise/arena pretty depressing. The fact that the Petes are a non profit who are succeeding on and off the ice without taking millions and millions of dollars of tax payer money OR acting as just another vehicle to move money from working class people to a multi-millionaire/corporation owner should be commended and celebrated.

I wouldn't call it misinformation or depressing by any means.
We are discussing what it would take for the Petes to get a proper JR hockey arena knowing it's the worst around basically.

Their own president went to the media in 2016 and said they would be bankrupt in 4 years without major changes to the lease. (They obviously got some concessions from the taxpayers as they are still around and doing just fine post covid which could have been the nail in the coffin for them.

It sounds like they will never get a new arena unless the team is sold to a private investor who works with the City to build an entertainment district is the discussion as the "board" will never be able to afford it in this day and age,

 

[NorthernVoice]

I wouldn't call it misinformation or depressing by any means.
We are discussing what it would take for the Petes to get a proper JR hockey arena knowing it's the worst around basically.

Their own president went to the media in 2016 and said they would be bankrupt in 4 years without major changes to the lease. (They obviously got some concessions from the taxpayers as they are still around and doing just fine post covid which could have been the nail in the coffin for them.

View attachment 936358

It sounds like they will never get a new arena unless the team is sold to a private investor who works with the City to build an entertainment district is the discussion as the "board" will never be able to afford it in this day and age,

Part one of your post here is 8 years old and no longer relevant and part two is misinformation, the arena is coming without private ownership, it's just very complicated.

You are out of your depth here.

 

[OMG67]

Frankly, I find this whole thread and discussion around the Peterborough franchise/arena pretty depressing. The fact that the Petes are a non profit who are succeeding on and off the ice without taking millions and millions of dollars of tax payer money OR acting as just another vehicle to move money from working class people to a multi-millionaire/corporation owner should be commended and celebrated.

I cannot understand why you would find the discussion depressing. At some point, the PMC will require a significant renovation. Whether it is a complete overhaul of the ice making technology or structural issues etc, the time will come. Or, it could be a series of scheduled renovations and/or structural improvements. That cost will be crazy huge. The City of Peterborough will be on the hook to cover that. At some point there will be a cost/benefit analysis regarding the viability of maintaining an older building that holds thousands of spectators. That could be 5 years from now, or it could be 20. But, that day will come.

Peterborough looks to be going about it the correct way. They are waiting for a development that can justify the spend. Preferably, it will involve a private partnership for profit to assist in ensuring the project can proceed without significant public funding. You have pretty much outlined that in your previous post.

The reality is, this is the cycle. Older buildings that get to the point where they are either no longer functional and capable of generating revenue or are no longer structurally safe without massive structural repairs etc, get replaced by new buildings. Clearly the former is not an issue and it doesn’t seem like it will be an issue for many years to come. However, the latter could be around the corner and we just don’t know it yet. It would be better to have an alternative in place.

The Ottawa Civic Centre has private boxes that were constructed for the Senators in 1992. They are condemned and can no longer support the weight. The roof is a section of the North Side Stands of the football stadium. The building can house the 67’s just fine but the constant $$$ that goes into maintaining the facility is crazy. It is at the point where there really isn’t an option. It needs to be replaced. It is part of the cycle of sports facilities. Having a discussion on the possibilities and challenges for Peterborough shouldn’t be depressing.

Part one of your post here is 8 years old and no longer relevant and part two is misinformation, the arena is coming without private ownership, it's just very complicated.

You are out of your depth here.

Do you mean the arena is coming without private ownership change of the team? That is very possible. But, private investment would likely be required for the redevelopment where the arena would be built, correct? I would assume that to be the case.

 

[NorthernVoice]

Having a discussion on the possibilities and challenges for Peterborough shouldn’t be depressing.

Do you mean the arena is coming without private ownership change of the team? That is very possible. But, private investment would likely be required for the redevelopment where the arena would be built, correct? I would assume that to be the case.

It's depressing that people see private ownership which enriches the already ultra wealthy and endless taxpayer money for sports teams as the be-all end-all. It's politically depressing that that's where people's priorities lay.

There is no talk of private ownership here at all and hasn't been for a long time. The arena will happen downtown, probably a combination of taxpayer money and money from the Petes reserves, which yes exist, the team is healthy.

There will not need to be a private partner in the arena itself, yes the belief is that other businesses would also choose to invest in the area of the new arena but it's spin off rather than direct investment.

 

[OMG67]

It's depressing that people see private ownership which enriches the already ultra wealthy and endless taxpayer money for sports teams as the be-all end-all. It's politically depressing that that's where people's priorities lay.

There is no talk of private ownership here at all and hasn't been for a long time. The arena will happen downtown, probably a combination of taxpayer money and money from the Petes reserves, which yes exist, the team is healthy.

There will not need to be a private partner in the arena itself, yes the belief is that other businesses would also choose to invest in the area of the new arena but it's spin off rather than direct investment.

If you were to look at the Lansdowne deal between OSEG And the City of Ottawa, it shows three revenue components for the city of Ottawa:
1> Ticket Surcharges
2> Increased annual taxes based on property value increases
3> Waterfall payments (share of profits)

OSEG has posted an operating loss every year so there has never been a waterfall payment. Effectively, the City of Ottawa services and owns the debt but OSEG is responsible for operating the site and if there is a loss, they incur the loss. If there is a profit, they share in the profits with the City.

So, if the City of Peterborough were to not join forces with a Private Firm, the City takes all the risk top to bottom. There is no shared risk. Cities typically never want to do that. They either need a partner to operate it and share in the risk or they hire a management firm to manage the property but that becomes an expense which further increases risk.

Clearly the City of Peterborough would never just build a rink. Debt service on the loan alone would be upwards of $6mil annually. If they own the rink and the land, they can’t pay property taxes to themselves so there is no tax revenue. That leaves the business operation of the building itself as the only way to pay the debt service.

If it is a part of a larger development, they can then divert all of the property taxes from the new development to pay the debt service on all components the City is responsible for of the project (which includes the arena but there could be other costs as well). This is the most common approach. But, again, if there is a Private partnership and the Private partner assumes all the operational risk, the City has more control over mitigating losses. They can still pull in all the ticket surcharge $$$ and all the Property Tax $$$ and only risk not getting the Waterfall component. Win-Win. The only risk in that scenario is if the Private Partner goes bankrupt.

Either way, the City cannot manage the operations of the development once it is up and running. They either partner with a firm that takes on risk or contract a firm that adds a cost component to the operations and the City takes on 100% of the risk.

So, this really isn’t s Big Bad wolf story of corporate greed.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Part one of your post here is 8 years old and no longer relevant and part two is misinformation, the arena is coming without private ownership, it's just very complicated.

You are out of your depth here.

Out of my depth? You are confirming what i was saying was possible to @OMG earlier in this post lol.
I personally don't think it matters who owns the team if the city wants it bad enough they will make it happen was my view on it. (I just didn't have all the details on ownership structure)

Realistically it won't happen unless there is a partnership between someone with ALOT of money and the taxpayers either way though.

I seen the lease details for the Petes with the city online they have a VERY GOOD lease deal compared to other teams around like the B-Sens

I think you are jumping on the defence when its not needed.
I probably want the Petes to have a new arena more then anyone having to sit in the worst ergonomic press box i have ever seen trying to collect data on players Lol.

 

[NorthernVoice]

Out of my depth? You are confirming what i was saying was possible to @OMG earlier in this post lol.
I personally don't think it matters who owns the team if the city wants it bad enough they will make it happen was my view on it. (I just didn't have all the details on ownership structure)

Realistically it won't happen unless there is a partnership between someone with ALOT of money and the taxpayers either way though.

I seen the lease details for the Petes with the city online they have a VERY GOOD lease deal compared to other teams around like the B-Sens

I think you are jumping on the defence when its not needed.
I probably want the Petes to have a new arena more then anyone having to sit in the worst ergonomic press box i have ever seen trying to collect data on players Lol.

This whole back and forth is a lot like the scouting thread, where one guy is watching video/newspaper articles on what's going on and the other is there in direct contact on a regular basis with the principles involved, so yeah just like in that thread, I will point out the flaws in the quality of info obtained in method A vs method B

 

[OMG67]

This whole back and forth is a lot like the scouting thread, where one guy is watching video/newspaper articles on what's going on and the other is there in direct contact on a regular basis with the principles involved, so yeah just like in that thread, I will point out the flaws in the quality of info obtained in method A vs method B

For clarity, I am not talking in the thread about Peterborough specifically. Peterborough is just an example. I am referring to the generally accepted model for building a new arena. This translates to pretty much all locations that currently do not have a suitable arena for the purpose of expansion. If a renovation of the existing arena is not plausible and a new arena is required, the methods I have detailed is the most typical path.

This reinforces my stance that it isn’t about looking for the right geographic location for expansion teams. It is about what location can support the build of a new arena through some sort of proposed redevelopment plan.

There are loads of small communities that can easily support an OHL team but, only if they have access to revenue through a suitable facility they play in.

We can throw darts on a map and come up with a dozen or more possibilities but if none of those communities have a suitable facility and no plan to build one then it is a useless conversation.

 

[Section5Petes]

Further to @OMG67 and @ScoutLife4, this was one of the arena proposals for downtown and it is not just a free standing arena. There are several event pieces mixed in.
This global news article provides a good summary:

Morrow Park for twin-pad arena; downtown site to replace Peterborough Memorial Centre: reports - Peterborough | Globalnews.ca

A twin-pad arena was planned on land on Fleming College but has been put on pause and failed to receive government funding.

globalnews.ca

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/sports/peterborough-region/concept-for-new-arena-in-downtown-peterborough-praised/article_c83ff55e-d245-58c3-a2d5-3679d0c4d9ad.html?

And this is current PTBO mayor Jeff Lead from November 7th talking about the desire for a new arena:

‘Council has to make tangible progress’: Peterborough mayor wants to see new arena to replace Peterborough Memorial Centre

Jeff Leal speaks to The Examiner about his desire for new arena to house the Petes after Brantford finalizes financial plan for new complex

www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com

 

[ScoutLife4]

Further to @OMG67 and @ScoutLife4, this was one of the arena proposals for downtown and it is not just a free standing arena. There are several event pieces mixed in.
This global news article provides a good summary:

Morrow Park for twin-pad arena; downtown site to replace Peterborough Memorial Centre: reports - Peterborough | Globalnews.ca

A twin-pad arena was planned on land on Fleming College but has been put on pause and failed to receive government funding.

globalnews.ca

View attachment 936423

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/sports/peterborough-region/concept-for-new-arena-in-downtown-peterborough-praised/article_c83ff55e-d245-58c3-a2d5-3679d0c4d9ad.html?

View attachment 936422

And this is current PTBO mayor Jeff Lead from November 7th talking about the desire for a new arena:

‘Council has to make tangible progress’: Peterborough mayor wants to see new arena to replace Peterborough Memorial Centre

Jeff Leal speaks to The Examiner about his desire for new arena to house the Petes after Brantford finalizes financial plan for new complex

www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com

Thats actually a really cool concept.
I had no idea they were this far along when i was going back and forth with OMG telling him it was possible but this is great to see.
I guess this just goes to show that anything is possible with the right Mayor and Council just like i said!
The Article is behind a paywall so i couldn't really read it.

 

[Voice from the North]

Further to @OMG67 and @ScoutLife4, this was one of the arena proposals for downtown and it is not just a free standing arena. There are several event pieces mixed in.
This global news article provides a good summary:

Morrow Park for twin-pad arena; downtown site to replace Peterborough Memorial Centre: reports - Peterborough | Globalnews.ca

A twin-pad arena was planned on land on Fleming College but has been put on pause and failed to receive government funding.

globalnews.ca

View attachment 936423

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/sports/peterborough-region/concept-for-new-arena-in-downtown-peterborough-praised/article_c83ff55e-d245-58c3-a2d5-3679d0c4d9ad.html?

View attachment 936422

And this is current PTBO mayor Jeff Lead from November 7th talking about the desire for a new arena:

‘Council has to make tangible progress’: Peterborough mayor wants to see new arena to replace Peterborough Memorial Centre

Jeff Leal speaks to The Examiner about his desire for new arena to house the Petes after Brantford finalizes financial plan for new complex

www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com

Glad to see this in Peterborough, you will have unexpected hurdles but I really hope this works out for you.

Here in Sudbury, we're finally ready to build a new arena across the street from the old one. We just need to get rid of one more holdout business and the process will start. As previously stated, with the right mayor and council (council is somewhat debatable here) things can move quickly.

 

[Otto]

This has become less about expansion and more about Peterborough

 

[OMG67]

This has become less about expansion and more about Peterborough

This is directly about expansion because the arena issue is global to the conversation. This is the exact same issue in every town we talk about. This goes a long way toward people understanding what has to happen behind the scenes before communities can even be considered.