GDT: Offseason GDT II

[Omni Owl]

But Doughty wasn't good, Kopitar generally wasn't and Toffoli was a healthy scratch or at least I hope he was because I don't remember him making any plays.

If you don't sign Lucic and have money to play with, you still don't sign a soon-to-be 34 year old to what will probably be a $4MM contract unless it was for one season, which he won't sign unless Vancouver offered it.

It also opens a hole in the Top 6. Maybe Pearson can fill it but I think that, if this team is supposed to win now, they are better with Lucic than with Hamhuis.

Gravel and Forbort don't have to be Top 4 guys right away--if they ever are that good--because Doughty can mask a lot of faults. They just need to be better with the puck, faster and smarter than Schenn/Scuderi/McNabb/McBain.

Ideally none of these guys return next year, even though I'm sure we'll see McNabb in some form. Lucic had a good regular season, but his next contract is going to turn into an albatross that cripples this team financially (even moreso). We would still be in the playoffs without him this past year, but DL is just deadset on keeping the guy. I'm not expecting much from this team if that top 4 D isn't filled next year, because it will be they same old story: Doughty getting ran into the ground and being overplayed, being exposed if one of our top 3 D gets hurt. Not saying Hamhuis is the answer either, but he would be an upgrade over Schenn/Scuderi/McNabb/McBain.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I don't think you do anything. You concentrate on the 2017 draft and recouping some higher tier prospects. Sign Lucic for a decent deal if you can. Otherwise, sit tight and save cap space and see if anything becomes available.

This used to be the Lombardi way, and how he jumped on stuff like the Carter trade.

This franchise is barren in key areas (center, defense). You're not going to fix that via UFA.

 

[Kingspiracy]

Perhaps a lateral move but how about

Kevin Klein + Rick Nash at 50%

for

Alec Martinez.

That could be another option on our wing if we don't want to go the Lucic direction.

edit...

Just bored with the offseason and discussing things in the trade section.

 

[Trolfoli]

Still think the D needs to be overhauled.

The Kings top players not showing up in the playoffs was a result of the defense not being able to get the puck up ice and spending way too much time in the defensive zone and not playing to the forwards strengths.

The line between success/failure in the playoffs isn't that thin. Scuderi/Schenn in the top4 = fail. There's no way around it. It doesn't come down to puck luck or bounces. The defense is no where near where it needs to be.

Kings/Sharks
Doughty(7)/Burns(5.76)
Muzzin(4)/Martin(4.85)
Martinez(4)/Vlasic(4.25)
Schenn(1.8)/Braun(3.8)
Scuderi(1.125)/Dillon(3.27)
McNabb(0.65)/Polak(2.75)

It is easy to see where the lack of depth was a problem. Then injuries happen and the Sharks would be in a much better place as far as covering for an injury. How do you match that depth with Brown's joke of a contract?

Overpay a UFA! If you bring in a UFA for a few bucks more then Muzzin/Martinez, then turn around and ship those guys out for some cheaper assets that can offset the additional money the UFA is making while having a higher ceiling then Gravel/Forbort the team comes out ahead. Due to some terrible contracts something like this might be necessary. I'd also say bring in a UFA and have 4 actual top 4D, but the expansion draft may have other plans.

Also the Defense lacks an identity. They aren't a fast puck movers, they aren't physical, not particularly good at defensing, Doughty is dynamic, but spends most his time babysitting so he can't push it... The defense is a long ways from where it needs to be. Forbot/Gravel aren't fixing what's wrong.

The time to win is now: This is correct, but the problem is fixing the defense with the Kings cap structure. It may take more then one year to fix.


Side note: It really pisses me off that Lombari's plan for this years playoffs was Scuderi on the top pair. That is just a complete waste of the season.

 

[YP44]

Perhaps a lateral move but how about

Kevin Klein + Rick Nash at 50%

for

Alec Martinez.

That could be another option on our wing if we don't want to go the Lucic direction.

edit...

Just bored with the offseason and discussing things in the trade section.

zero chance the rangers do that. Nash is getting **** on but he is far from a cap dump. He can still produce, so with 50% retention he should earn a nice return.

 

[YP44]

Still think the D needs to be overhauled.

The Kings top players not showing up in the playoffs was a result of the defense not being able to get the puck up ice and spending way too much time in the defensive zone and not playing to the forwards strengths.

The line between success/failure in the playoffs isn't that thin. Scuderi/Schenn in the top4 = fail. There's no way around it. It doesn't come down to puck luck or bounces. The defense is no where near where it needs to be.

Kings/Sharks
Doughty(7)/Burns(5.76)
Muzzin(4)/Martin(4.85)
Martinez(4)/Vlasic(4.25)
Schenn(1.8)/Braun(3.8)
Scuderi(1.125)/Dillon(3.27)
McNabb(0.65)/Polak(2.75)

It is easy to see where the lack of depth was a problem. Then injuries happen and the Sharks would be in a much better place as far as covering for an injury. How do you match that depth with Brown's joke of a contract?

Overpay a UFA! If you bring in a UFA for a few bucks more then Muzzin/Martinez, then turn around and ship those guys out for some cheaper assets that can offset the additional money the UFA is making while having a higher ceiling then Gravel/Forbort the team comes out ahead. Due to some terrible contracts something like this might be necessary. I'd also say bring in a UFA and have 4 actual top 4D, but the expansion draft may have other plans.

Also the Defense lacks an identity. They aren't a fast puck movers, they aren't physical, not particularly good at defensing, Doughty is dynamic, but spends most his time babysitting so he can't push it... The defense is a long ways from where it needs to be. Forbot/Gravel aren't fixing what's wrong.

The time to win is now: This is correct, but the problem is fixing the defense with the Kings cap structure. It may take more then one year to fix.


Side note: It really pisses me off that Lombari's plan for this years playoffs was Scuderi on the top pair. That is just a complete waste of the season.

you honestly believe that was DL's plan? I don't think there were any top line d-men available, and DL probably hoped that Schenn could help the 2nd pair which would take some pressure off of the top pair.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

you honestly believe that was DL's plan? I don't think there were any top line d-men available, and DL probably hoped that Schenn could help the 2nd pair which would take some pressure off of the top pair.

I'm not sure they were available, but when you like at the price tag on Kris ****ing Russell, and yikes.

Remember though that per Friedman we were all in on Byfuglien. That would have been a HUGE land.

Edit: and moving Muzzin with his contract is the worst possible idea, I'm sorry, there's no scenario there in which we come out on top unless it's as part of a series of moves. Martinez as well but even then at least he's a #4, not a great top pairing d-man for 4 million a year. That's a sweetheart deal.

 

[YP44]

I'm not sure they were available, but when you like at the price tag on Kris ****ing Russell, and yikes.

Remember though that per Friedman we were all in on Byfuglien. That would have been a HUGE land.

Edit: and moving Muzzin with his contract is the worst possible idea, I'm sorry, there's no scenario there in which we come out on top unless it's as part of a series of moves. Martinez as well but even then at least he's a #4, not a great top pairing d-man for 4 million a year. That's a sweetheart deal.

I missed where this was said but I could not agree more with you. The kings D is built around Doughty and Muzzin..and that is a good thing.

Had Dean bean able to get buff I am sure there would be a large contingent saying he gave too much. Especially if buff walked after this year and there was no cup to show for it.

 

[The Tikkanen]

I'm not sure they were available, but when you like at the price tag on Kris ****ing Russell, and yikes.

Remember though that per Friedman we were all in on Byfuglien. That would have been a HUGE land.

Edit: and moving Muzzin with his contract is the worst possible idea, I'm sorry, there's no scenario there in which we come out on top unless it's as part of a series of moves. Martinez as well but even then at least he's a #4, not a great top pairing d-man for 4 million a year. That's a sweetheart deal.

I think that #2Dman slot is priority #1 for Lombardi. He wants to have a Keith-Seabrook type combo in the top pairing and would make the #2 pairing of Muzzin-Martinez even better. The top 4 would be stacked and they could overcome a major injury to a top 4 defenseman. That said going out and getting this top level # dman isn't easy, gonna have to find another Gaborik/Carter type trade. I'll be watching the draft expecting the Kings to pull of a trade or trades and the team will look drastically different.

 

[Omni Owl]

Hoping he can fleece Benning, who just made an awful trade.

 

[YP44]

I think that #2Dman slot is priority #1 for Lombardi. He wants to have a Keith-Seabrook type combo in the top pairing and would make the #2 pairing of Muzzin-Martinez even better. The top 4 would be stacked and they could overcome a major injury to a top 4 defenseman. That said going out and getting this top level # dman isn't easy, gonna have to find another Gaborik/Carter type trade. I'll be watching the draft expecting the Kings to pull of a trade or trades and the team will look drastically different.

I hope you are right that DL will be able to get a top 2..however I would not get my hopes up that the team will look drastically different (not even sure I would want the team to..they were pretty friggin good this year)

My draft prediction is 2 of King/Clifford/Nolan get moved for more picks.

 

[lumbergh]

Count me among the minority that thinks the Kings should stand pat on defensemen. The Kings played excellent defense all season up until they clinched the playoffs.

Doughty, Muzzin, and Martinez form a top-notch core group. McNabb had an up-and-down season, but was overall pretty good. With another year, McNabb is going to be Muzzin-lite. One of Gravel and Forbort should be a solid bottom pairing defenseman. It's a good, good group on the back end.

I would bring back McBain and plant him on the 3rd pairing with Gravel/Forbort. McBain quietly had a bunch of good games, moving the puck up, playing solid defense, getting pucks on net. He's exactly the kind of depth player the Kings need down on the third pairing. Somehow, just about every time McBain dressed, the Kings won (30 wins in 44 games played).

McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
McBain-Gravel
Greene/Scuderi/Forbort

The Kings season ended on a sour note, as the team defensive structure withered under an excellent Sharks forecheck. In addition, the Sharks clogged up the neutral zone, preventing effective zone entries. These are tactical problems that aren't solved by blowing up the defense and bringing in new personnel. Sutter, Payne and Stevens have to make adjustments to the Kings system to catch up with the rest of the league, because the rest of the league has definitely caught up to the Kings.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

Count me among the minority that thinks the Kings should stand pat on defensemen. The Kings played excellent defense all season up until they clinched the playoffs.

Doughty, Muzzin, and Martinez form a top-notch core group. McNabb had an up-and-down season, but was overall pretty good. With another year, McNabb is going to be Muzzin-lite. One of Gravel and Forbort should be a solid bottom pairing defenseman. It's a good, good group on the back end.

I would bring back McBain and plant him on the 3rd pairing with Gravel/Forbort. McBain quietly had a bunch of good games, moving the puck up, playing solid defense, getting pucks on net. He's exactly the kind of depth player the Kings need down on the third pairing. Somehow, just about every time McBain dressed, the Kings won (30 wins in 44 games played).

McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
McBain-Gravel
Greene/Scuderi/Forbort

The Kings season ended on a sour note, as the team defensive structure withered under an excellent Sharks forecheck. In addition, the Sharks clogged up the neutral zone, preventing effective zone entries. These are tactical problems that aren't solved by blowing up the defense and bringing in new personnel. Sutter, Payne and Stevens have to make adjustments to the Kings system to catch up with the rest of the league, because the rest of the league has definitely caught up to the Kings.

i'm adding you to my blacklist

 

[Kingsfan1]

After the Panthers just fleeced the Canucks im thinking Bjugstad could be had . He is a big body like the Kings like them . Im hoping he has some speed as i havent seen him play much but seems to have a nice skill set, looking at his numbers.

Barkov-Trocheck-Bjugstad-McCann im sure McCann is in their plans to be the 3C as he is bettwr suited for development there. They seemed to grow little weary on Bjugstad as Trocheck passed him on the team by a landslide this year and took the 2C from him.

 

[Kingsfan1]

Count me among the minority that thinks the Kings should stand pat on defensemen. The Kings played excellent defense all season up until they clinched the playoffs.

Doughty, Muzzin, and Martinez form a top-notch core group. McNabb had an up-and-down season, but was overall pretty good. With another year, McNabb is going to be Muzzin-lite. One of Gravel and Forbort should be a solid bottom pairing defenseman. It's a good, good group on the back end.

I would bring back McBain and plant him on the 3rd pairing with Gravel/Forbort. McBain quietly had a bunch of good games, moving the puck up, playing solid defense, getting pucks on net. He's exactly the kind of depth player the Kings need down on the third pairing. Somehow, just about every time McBain dressed, the Kings won (30 wins in 44 games played).

McNabb-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
McBain-Gravel
Greene/Scuderi/Forbort

The Kings season ended on a sour note, as the team defensive structure withered under an excellent Sharks forecheck. In addition, the Sharks clogged up the neutral zone, preventing effective zone entries. These are tactical problems that aren't solved by blowing up the defense and bringing in new personnel. Sutter, Payne and Stevens have to make adjustments to the Kings system to catch up with the rest of the league, because the rest of the league has definitely caught up to the Kings.

Our defense was the number 1 problem as Martinez is not a #3/4 he is more of a great #5 and fringe #4. Sutter lowering his minutes in some of the games earlier in the year either had to do with him being hurt or he just wasnt up to the task. Also our bottom pairing is pathetic as they are slow and old , and Scuderi and Greene make us worse not better. Greene is always injured and the game has passed Scuderi by. I love Martinez as the #5 but he might be to expensive for it now. We either upgrade him + for a top 4 dman or we simply allow Forbort/Gravel to develop alongside one of the top 2 guys and bring in more reliable bottom pairing dman who can actually get the puck out of the zone and make a tape to tape outlet pass.

This along with our bottom 6 who are just grinders and mostly slow and have no skill set is the big reason why we lost because we are only a 2 line and 2 d pairing team pretty much. The bottom 6 needs more skill and speed just as much as the bottom pairing on defense

 

[TheBannermen]

Anyone still think Toffoli for Gudbranson would be a good trade? Does Toffoli's value = McCann and a 2nd?

 

[lumbergh]

Our defense was the number 1 problem as Martinez is not a #3/4 he is more of a great #5 and fringe #4. Sutter lowering his minutes in some of the games earlier in the year either had to do with him being hurt or he just wasnt up to the task. Also our bottom pairing is pathetic as they are slow and old , and Scuderi and Greene make us worse not better. Greene is always injured and the game has passed Scuderi by. I love Martinez as the #5 but he might be to expensive for it now. We either upgrade him + for a top 4 dman or we simply allow Forbort/Gravel to develop alongside one of the top 2 guys and bring in more reliable bottom pairing dman who can actually get the puck out of the zone and make a tape to tape outlet pass.

Well the Kings sure missed Martinez at the end of the season there. Generally teams don't miss #5 guys being injured.

Martinez was plenty good as a #3/4 with Muzzin this year. Pretty much had the same 5-on-5 GF60 and GA60 as Drew Doughty this season. Stepped up to 21 minutes per game and handled it well. I think you might be accustomed to seeing Marty as a bottom pairing guy, but he's proved this year that he's an excellent middle pairing D.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Hoping he can fleece Benning, who just made an awful trade.

No kidding, right? At this point I'm thinking Tanev can be had for King and a third...

i'm adding you to my blacklist

After the Panthers just fleeced the Canucks im thinking Bjugstad could be had . He is a big body like the Kings like them . Im hoping he has some speed as i havent seen him play much but seems to have a nice skill set, looking at his numbers.

Barkov-Trocheck-Bjugstad-McCann im sure McCann is in their plans to be the 3C as he is bettwr suited for development there. They seemed to grow little weary on Bjugstad as Trocheck passed him on the team by a landslide this year and took the 2C from him.

Bjugstad would be amazing. But pricey.

Anyone still think Toffoli for Gudbranson would be a good trade? Does Toffoli's value = McCann and a 2nd?

Toffoli easily > McCann and a 2nd. I think, minus draft pedigree, they'd have to add to Gudbrandson, but I'm also not sure he answers our problems anyway. What would the idea be, to play him on the 2nd pairing with martinez? If we were to give up Toffoli, I'd want a much more dynamic d-man...though long term he COULD be a Mitchell. I dunno, I think we already have that guy in McNabb, Guddy isn't a significant upgrade worth Toffoli.

 

[YP44]

Anyone still think Toffoli for Gudbranson would be a good trade? Does Toffoli's value = McCann and a 2nd?

I don't remember people suggesting that deal?

 

[TheBannermen]

I don't remember people suggesting that deal?

It was suggested here and then posted on the trade board as a proposal. Not sure who, nor do I care to single people out, but my point is that when things go bad, fans tend to lose sight of what a player is actually worth. The grass starts looking greener on the other side of the fence when in actuality, there might be big piles of **** on that lawn.

 

[Trolfoli]

you honestly believe that was DL's plan? I don't think there were any top line d-men available, and DL probably hoped that Schenn could help the 2nd pair which would take some pressure off of the top pair.

I 100% believe that Lombardi knew Sutter would put Scuderi on the top pairing. As soon as that trade was made everyone should have seen it as a very real possibility.

Muzzin/Doughty
Martinez/Schenn

Isn't much better as the other most likely scenario.

Pretty much just flushed the season.

Edit: When looking at the Sharks roster vs the Kings roster.... Doughty/Vlasic fill similar roles in that they are both used as shutdown D. Doughty might have some more offensive skill, but doesn't get to use it because of carrying his partner. Then you have Martinez/Burns filling the same role as the PMD/offensive threat. Martinez is a fine defensman, but is no where near Burn's level. Kings need a more dynamic player for that position.

Barrie: Going to probably cost a lot in assets to acquire.
Yandle: 0 assets, costs cap space.

If Yandle you're looking at Muzzin/Doughty, Yandle/Martinez. Yandle plays the left, Martinez and Doughty are on the right. The only other real scenario is swapping Yandle/Muzzin... I don't see either one of those pairings as realistic. Yandle with Doughty doesn't make sense, because you want an offensive threat on the 2nd pair. A second pair of Yandle/Martinez isn't going to work for Sutter.

So move Martinez for a shutdown RHD. Hopefully someone better then Schenn.

That leaves Muzzin/Doughty, Yandle/?????, now factor in the expansion draft. You're only protecting 3D. Muzzin is pigeonholed into the top pair. Doesn't make sense to swap him with Yandle. Doughty doesn't need Muzzin on the top pair. Who do you move in this case?


Also don't see the standing pat on D. The regular season D looked fine. Playoffs were a joke. Even with Martinez in one of Scuderi/Shenn is still in the top 4. Kings do not have enough talent coming to match up with the Sharks and other playoff teams D. They don't have the cap space to fix the D without taking the offense back to 20+ ranking. To further complicate the matter they have a limited time to fix these issues before someone like Quick/Carter are done.

 

[YP44]

I don't know, I think DL just thought Scuderi would be more useful than Ehrhoff

 

[KingsFan7824]

McBain, Ehrhoff, Schenn, Scuderi, they were all just attempts to get more depth on defense, because there's nobody out there that easily replaces Voynov without creating a different hole on the roster. Keeping Sekera would've meant no Lucic, or even Williams for that matter, which would've meant more King or Brown with Kopitar or Carter.

Whatever they do, they'll need at least one, probably two guys from Ontario, not including Budaj if they can't find another cheap goalie, to play above their pay grade next year. If that doesn't happen, we'll probably have the same range of questions 12 months from now.

 

[YP44]

McBain, Ehrhoff, Schenn, Scuderi, they were all just attempts to get more depth on defense, because there's nobody out there that easily replaces Voynov without creating a different hole on the roster. Keeping Sekera would've meant no Lucic, or even Williams for that matter, which would've meant more King or Brown with Kopitar or Carter.

Whatever they do, they'll need at least one, probably two guys from Ontario, not including Budaj if they can't find another cheap goalie, to play above their pay grade next year. If that doesn't happen, we'll probably have the same range of questions 12 months from now.

The lack of depth in the system in net is why I was shocked that Alex Lyon chose the Flyers over the Kings. At the very least he would be stating in the AHL with the kings, maybe even be in the NHL behind Quick. With the Flyers he is definitely behind both Mason and Neuvirth, and battling with Stolarz for AHL starts.

 

[deeshamrock]

Well, Lucic wasn't much of a factor in the post-season anyways, he actually hurt the team with his stupid penalties. He was a huge disappointment and he can't tame his temper. I'd much rather DL address the top 4 D, even if it is a gamble. Gravel/Forbort aren't going to just slide in that top 4 spot.

One of the articles I read about 10 days or so ago, I think it was NESN, was speaking to how many teams/GM's are pushing to upgrade at D and they mentioned the kings, how DL is still pushing for that and Yandle is on his list. Granted (according to the article) Yandle will get overpaid and could get 6M or more. I'd pass, not a fan but DL loves him...
If he is intent on getting a fit for that top 4 pairing, he'll have to move some salary to fit that and Lucic