Speculation: Official JT Miller Trade Thread II - NEW Update (1/25/22) - Rangers Interest "Next Level"

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Colorado:

Newhook

for

Vancouver


Miller @50%

Is this fair? Who adds if it's not?

Not a chance.


Newhook is not available. Conversation ends immediately.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

At this point who do Avs value more: byram or newhook?

 

[WhiteCurse]

At this point who do Avs value more: byram or newhook?

Byram is broken, who knows how he is gonna come out of this

 

[zcaptain]

The trouble with this thread is 2 fold..........

1. There is no way Laf and/or Kakko get moved while they are so young. Their potential is 1st line players, and because they were drafted so high, their climb isn't that far. They need time to mature. If I am NYR, there is no way I do this. Neither would Vancouver. It is their pedigree that makes them so valuable.

2. The over protection of the fans with their own prospects. The reason is, they know them well, where as they really do not know the asset that is being offered back. Take in case Miller and the NYR fans, They remember the old Miller and not the today Miller. Big Difference. So on one hand, they will argue point #1, that players can develop with time and maturity, and on the other hand, can't get past, having seen Miller when he was the exact same age as Laff and Kokko.

The truth is, Miller as shown last night with a 4 point game, has moved his game to an entirely different level, then when he was in NY. It is not whether he is better than Panarin, Zib, or Kreider, but that it is fair to mention him in the same breath, without the argument. My point is, there is not one team, that if not constrained by the Cap, would not want to add Miller to their line up.

The last thing is, any team, that is in the top 10, and in this season, probably the top 13, if adding a Miller, improves their team substantially, and improve their chances of winning the cup.

Now, for some teams, because of cap circumstances, Miller at 50% retained would be like a super duper rental. In truth, this opertunity, seldom, if ever comes up, with a star player. But for some teams, there would be the opportunity to have him reduced for 2 years, and then have him resigned, if his production and their team is improved by him.

Finally, when a team with minimal cap space wants this type of player, it is not a impossible task to clear cap. Take in point how Vegas moved cap for both Alex Pietrangelo and Jack Eichel. Their are many other examples of this throughout trading history. It is denial to state otherwise.

Trades happen because the teams, like what the other teams are offering and how those assets, fit in to where they are at present and the near future. I do not think I have ever heard of a case where the fans voided a trade.

Millers value, is a Good roster player, a good prospect and a 1st, especially at 50% reduced, you just have to look at past history to see that that value has been set for a player of his abilities. Keep in mind, that most contending teams 1st's are late and the prospect coming from that 1st, usually can be found anywhere between 27 and 37 ish in a normal draft year. (Values are quite similar)

Don't get me wrong, I love the debate on this subject, and some valid points are being made, but the statements of prospects absolute value are a little ridiculous. In saying that, if Vancouver really wants a particular player, aka Schneider, then it is a good bet that Vancouver values him high, as would the NYR's. Is Schneider untouchable, probably not, but will he affect the entire offer, yes, probably. No Schneider for Miller 50% retained is not a fair deal. It will be Schneider + +, to get Miller, and the pluses will be good, the question will be, whether Vancouver feels it is enough.

 

[PAZ]

At this point who do Avs value more: byram or newhook?

Depends on who you ask, but for me they’re pretty equal at the moment. If Byram was healthy he’d easily have more value though.

Neither are getting traded though, both are too valuable on their ELCs.

 

[zcaptain]

If you think the Rangers are damn close to a cup then you have no idea about anything about our team.

Well, I will tell you this............

If your window is not for the next 4 years, then you are in trouble, because Zib, Panarin, Kreider, and Trouba will all have started to age out.......

I can not say for certain, but are you willing to bet your next 4 years on it. The thing is, I see no one other than Fox that has shown they can be at

those players levels yet. You can hope on Laff, Kakko, Othmann and Schneider, but they sure are not there yet.

 

[Canucks LB]

The trouble with this thread is 2 fold..........

1. There is no way Laf and/or Kakko get moved while they are so young. Their potential is 1st line players, and because they were drafted so high, their climb isn't that far. They need time to mature. If I am NYR, there is no way I do this. Neither would Vancouver. It is their pedigree that makes them so valuable.

2. The over protection of the fans with their own prospects. The reason is, they know them well, where as they really do not know the asset that is being offered back. Take in case Miller and the NYR fans, They remember the old Miller and not the today Miller. Big Difference. So on one hand, they will argue point #1, that players can develop with time and maturity, and on the other hand, can't get past, having seen Miller when he was the exact same age as Laff and Kokko.

The truth is, Miller as shown last night with a 4 point game, has moved his game to an entirely different level, then when he was in NY. It is not whether he is better than Panarin, Zib, or Kreider, but that it is fair to mention him in the same breath, without the argument. My point is, there is not one team, that if not constrained by the Cap, would not want to add Miller to their line up.

The last thing is, any team, that is in the top 10, and in this season, probably the top 13, if adding a Miller, improves their team substantially, and improve their chances of winning the cup.

Now, for some teams, because of cap circumstances, Miller at 50% retained would be like a super duper rental. In truth, this opertunity, seldom, if ever comes up, with a star player. But for some teams, there would be the opportunity to have him reduced for 2 years, and then have him resigned, if his production and their team is improved by him.

Finally, when a team with minimal cap space wants this type of player, it is not a impossible task to clear cap. Take in point how Vegas moved cap for both Alex Pietrangelo and Jack Eichel. Their are many other examples of this throughout trading history. It is denial to state otherwise.

Trades happen because the teams, like what the other teams are offering and how those assets, fit in to where they are at present and the near future. I do not think I have ever heard of a case where the fans voided a trade.

Millers value, is a Good roster player, a good prospect and a 1st, especially at 50% reduced, you just have to look at past history to see that that value has been set for a player of his abilities. Keep in mind, that most contending teams 1st's are late and the prospect coming from that 1st, usually can be found anywhere between 27 and 37 ish in a normal draft year. (Values are quite similar)

Don't get me wrong, I love the debate on this subject, and some valid points are being made, but the statements of prospects absolute value are a little ridiculous. In saying that, if Vancouver really wants a particular player, aka Schneider, then it is a good bet that Vancouver values him high, as would the NYR's. Is Schneider untouchable, probably not, but will he affect the entire offer, yes, probably. No Schneider for Miller 50% retained is not a fair deal. It will be Schneider + +, to get Miller, and the pluses will be good, the question will be, whether Vancouver feels it is enough.

It was fantastic already in the other thread, after reading it again, it’s still fantastic

 

[zcaptain]

Hey, condescending smart ass, when YOU have people studying your work on how to restructure the international monetary system to help solve several of the world's problems, THEN you can talk.

Take care b'c I give as good as I get and more if I want.

You are apparently demonstrating fail at both math and logic.

Adding Miller w/w'out retention <<<<<<< cannibalizing youth.
We would be hard pressed on how to retain Kakko, LaF etc.
We would be diminishing the CLEAR AND CERTAIN extent of our long term window on a gamble we MIGHT win the cup.

Go back and study the laws of probability.
And remember, reading is your friend.

So Bernmeister, here is what I want to know. If your older guys age out, and your young guys do not reach any farther than the old guys did, then where are you? then if they do not actually reach that high, you are even in more of a pickle. Honestly, and I like alot of your players and your team in general, but it sounds like a flawed view point. And again, I love your team. (Fox and Panarin, really! But it's a solid team!)

 

[jackjohnson]

Kreider? Zibby? Fox is outscoring Miller too so?

Miller does PK, PP plays wing and center and has high FO% along with being a physical player and a leader. He is really valuable to Canucks to the point that am having second thoughts about trading Miller.

 

[jackjohnson]

In the Brooks/Laf thread there are posters that believe that you would have to give up an excellent player and a first in order to get Lafreniere...

In this thread you have posters that say you need to retain Miller at 50% in order to get Newhook...

Never change HFboards, the place where Cups mean nothing and young men mean everything.

Yeah thats funny, the price for Laf who is close to bust territory is a bonifide superstar while a bonifide superstar like Miller with 50% retention is a 1st round pick

 

[zcaptain]

It was fantastic already in the other thread, after reading it again, it’s still fantastic

Thanks, yes, it was supposed to be in this thread, but it had the same message and thought it should be in this one for sure. If anything, I would take it out of the other one.

 

[Breakers]

1. There is no way Laf and/or Kakko get moved while they are so young. Their potential is 1st line players, and because they were drafted so high, their climb isn't that far. They need time to mature. If I am NYR, there is no way I do this. Neither would Vancouver. It is their pedigree that makes them so valuable.

worst term in all of hockey, a part from maybe generational

their pedigree? becuase they went high in a draft

 

[John Johnson]

At this point who do Avs value more: byram or newhook?

Byram is an untouchable, even if he may never play hockey ever again.

 

[AHLdepth]

worst term in all of hockey, a part from maybe generational

their pedigree? becuase they went high in a draft

What are you talking about? Pedigree is everything, actual outcome means very little, that's why we were able to get such an amazing return on Juolevi

 

[48MPHSlapShot]

I mean, if the Rags don't want to cough up any significant assets for Miller then why is this trade even being discussed? If Schneids, Laf and Kakko are all off the table then it's a no go.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

I mean, if the Rags don't want to cough up any significant assets for Miller then why is this trade even being discussed? If Schneids, Laf and Kakko are all off the table then it's a no go.

Agreed, one of those three absolutely needs to be included. This is the top asset of the deadline, they aren't getting away with offering Kravtsov, Georgiev and a 1st.

 

[Nona Di Giuseppe]

they weren't worth my time but there was a social obligation to post rebuff to the general idiocy being stated.

But if YOU want to insist they are "great", by all means, do. Greatness surpassed in this instance only by their succinct brevity.

words !

the "social obligation" lmao, is to provide rebuttal with some content.

 

[Nona Di Giuseppe]

what other teams could be interested. NYR aren't even good enough to really compete against the Lightning, Panthers, Avs, Canes, etc.

 

[John Johnson]

In the Brooks/Laf thread there are posters that believe that you would have to give up an excellent player and a first in order to get Lafreniere...

In this thread you have posters that say you need to retain Miller at 50% in order to get Newhook...

Never change HFboards, the place where Cups mean nothing and young men mean everything.

Can we pin this post?

 

[UrbanImpact]

Depends on who you ask, but for me they’re pretty equal at the moment. If Byram was healthy he’d easily have more value though.

Neither are getting traded though, both are too valuable on their ELCs.

ELC is what 900k for Newhook?

Miller would be at 2.2 mil next year. Since the Canucks can retain 50%

So were talking about 1-ish mil differnce in salary and a massive gap in performance and abilities.

I think Sakic wont be so fast to take Newhook of the table especially if he can get 2 playoff runs with Miller at 2.2 mil AAV and the possibility of being able to -resign him long term.

 

[Nucker101]

Trade him to the Caps for Carl Hagelin out of pure spite

 

[bernmeister]

Well, I will tell you this............

If your window is not for the next 4 years, then you are in trouble, because Zib, Panarin, Kreider, and Trouba will all have started to age out.......

I can not say for certain, but are you willing to bet your next 4 years on it. The thing is, I see no one other than Fox that has shown they can be at those players levels yet. You can hope on Laff, Kakko, Othmann and Schneider, but they sure are not there yet.

IF is the biggest word in any language.
Our window is just now starting to open, and assuming we do not screw it up by dealing youth, and do not get hit w/crazy injury, then we are looking at upwards of 8 or so years, not 4.
We see w/LaF it is all about his skating which is continuing to improve. KK is the tortoise here but we see his whole game matures upward. At some pt he gets regular work w/line that has chemistry and he too will bust out. Schneider is real deal. Not concerned at this pt.

So Bernmeister, here is what I want to know. If your older guys age out, and your young guys do not reach any farther than the old guys did, then where are you? then If they do not actually reach that high, you are even in more of a pickle. Honestly, and I like alot of your players and your team in general, but it sounds like a flawed view point. And again, I love your team. (Fox and Panarin, really! But it's a solid team!)

We are not worried at this pt, and don't have to be. Biggest worry is Drury's ego dealing youth now which will artificially close that window early, among other consequences.

Agreed, one of those three absolutely needs to be included. This is the top asset of the deadline, they aren't getting away with offering Kravtsov, Georgiev and a 1st.

We good b'c Krav imo should not be on the table.
Strome + Lindgren + Jones + Geo
for
Miller at half + Halak, who we are not keeping next yr and can return to you if you want him.

That is the ONLY offer that works for NY under existing cap circumstances, and it still has probs b'c Lindgren's 3x3 has to be moved to get down payments on Kakko, LaF etc.
So no deal.

words !

the "social obligation" lmao, is to provide rebuttal with some content.

OOOooooooooooooooooh! He used an exclamation pt!! I'm trembling...




not.
Pat Benatar says, if you are even capable, which remains in doubt, hit me with your best shot.
Also Ringo, from Back Off Boogaloo, chimes in with: "get yourself together now and give me something tasty". --- assuming you are capable of that.

 

[mattydamon]

I mean, if the Rags don't want to cough up any significant assets for Miller then why is this trade even being discussed? If Schneids, Laf and Kakko are all off the table then it's a no go.

Rags fans on hockeysfuture is not the same as Rags actual management.

 

[AHLdepth]

Oh, my friend, if only that were true and it were that easy!

As I have explained prior,
Strome + Geo + Nemeth + Hajek + recovery of Hank 1.5 buyout = 11m+
which covers, with no additional wriggle room, the 11m+ add for Zib + Fox.

Miller thus CAN NOT be an upgrade substitute to Strome, who's only choices for NYR are be stupid and self rent or deal him for picks w'no cap hit.

The only way Miller can otherwise come to NY is we do some kind of package which adds the only body we have which makes sense to move, with value, which does not have nmc/ntc: Lindgren, and in consideration of that, Miller comes at half.

But there is only 1 prob with THAT.
we likely need to deal Lindgren's 3 x 3 to create stopgap funding for Kakko + LaF + other contracts while we wait for Trouba's nmc to expire and in dealing we can recover most of his 8m, replacing him with Schneider.
If we include Lindgren to get Miller, we don't have his salary for this ^ use, which is another set of problems not worth it.

We could do this, but then have to flip Miller at 2.5 or whatev half is after the season. Too much, too crazy.

I'm genuinely trying to approach this delicately because I obviously don't know the specifics of your roster, but through, admittedly minimal, research I'm wondering why something approximately similar to

"Example - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps"

Is impossible? From what I have roughly chucked together it doesn't seem so inconceivable to make things work capwise.

Obviously even in my example I'm over the cap, but for two years of legitimate Stanley Cup runs, I would have to think that it's not further moving heaven and earth to shed 500,000 bucks?

 

[UrbanImpact]

what other teams could be interested. NYR aren't even good enough to really compete against the Lightning, Panthers, Avs, Canes, etc.

I think every contending team will be interested. How the heck could they not be in adding a Point Per Game power forward at 2.2 mil.

However the reported ones are : NYR, Minny, CGY, St Louis,

If the Canucks wait till the off-season then the list of teams will double if not triple and not just be subject to contending teams.

The only reason the Canucks are entertaining trading Miller now is because the extra year on his contract will force teams to pay a bigger premium, However, if they cant get the price they want then they arent going to settle. They will just hold an auction in the off-season.