Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Pt III | Winter meetings are over. Still waiting for stuff to happen

[Discoverer]

Unless you’re giving the Reds significant salary relief (Moustakas) in the deal as well.

TOR: Castillo, Moustakas
CIN: Roark, Moreno, Hiraldo, Zeuch

Using the Snell deal as a comparable, a trade for Castillo absolutely has to include Pearson, Martin, or Groshans. Maybe you can get away with SWR if you upgrade one of the other prospects.

Moustakas is still roughly a league average player. At $16 million for each of the next three years, his contract isnt good, but it also isn't a pure salary dump. And Roark goes back the other way?

That trade is missing a main piece going to the Reds.

 

[Scion]

The Jays committed nearly as much money to Gurriel despite his success in a foreign professional league knowing full well he would spend time in the minors before he was ready to face major league competition.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe in a player, offer him a contract of that size, AND think (or have concerns) that he's going to need a bit of time to fully adjust to major league baseball and not want to HAVE to keep him in the majors while he does that.

According to reports San Diego is not moving Cronnenworth off of 2B to make room for Kim. Just to play devil's advocate, is it possible that Kim was overrated by the public sphere? For one, Kim was projected to command around 50M and he ended up signing for half of that, and now he may be opening the season in a utility role. The rumor that the Jays refused to offer a contract without a demotion clause also kind of lends some credence to this.

 

[Scion]

But if you are signing this guy you have done your due diligence scouted his KBO games. It's not like this is some High School kid coming out of nowhere. This guy played in a professional league

Did it ever occur to you that they put that clause in there because of their scouting evaluations?

 

[Zanks]

Did it ever occur to you that they put that clause in there because of their scouting evaluations?

I don't see how this is any different than any other evaluation of a front office decision? The Padres (a team filled with high end talent), determined that the no minors clause was not a deal breaker. That sets the market. We can now argue if our front office should have come to the same conclusion. We will see who was right when the kid plays.

You could make your argumemt about every free agent contract that they didn't sign (they clearly didn't offer more based on their scouting evaluation) or star prospect that was bypassed in the draft (The Orioles skipped Austin Martin for Heston Kjerstad based on scouting evaluation).

It's implicit.

 

[dredeye]

He might have been an expensive wallet but he was a free wallet.

That’s such a dumb term. A “free wallet” that if he fails like many Asian players before him is stuck on the books for at least 5 years. Can’t be sent down which blocks their ability to work with him and correct his flaws if he has any. Now clearly a different player and salary but I’ll use him as an example. Imagine if we gave Yamaguchi 5 years at 8 million a year. Would you be pumped to have him locked into the team for four more guaranteed years? 8 million is a really good player on most teams. It’s a huge risk either way. If he adjusts well here they will have a nice piece. If he doesn’t. They have wasted millions plus posting fees on what is far from a free wallet.

 

[dredeye]

Three way trade with the rays, Dodgers and Phillies just went through. Having trouble adding the link

 

[Amadeus]

Teams putting in work.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Three way trade with the rays, Dodgers and Phillies just went through. Having trouble adding the link

 

[trellaine201]

Three way trade with the rays, Dodgers and Phillies just went through. Having trouble adding the link

Phillies Acquire Jose Alvarado In Three-Team Trade With Rays, Dodgers

 

[shortfuze]

That’s such a dumb term. A “free wallet” that if he fails like many Asian players before him is stuck on the books for at least 5 years. Can’t be sent down which blocks their ability to work with him and correct his flaws if he has any. Now clearly a different player and salary but I’ll use him as an example. Imagine if we gave Yamaguchi 5 years at 8 million a year. Would you be pumped to have him locked into the team for four more guaranteed years? 8 million is a really good player on most teams. It’s a huge risk either way. If he adjusts well here they will have a nice piece. If he doesn’t. They have wasted millions plus posting fees on what is far from a free wallet.

I never coined the phrase “free wallet” I just replied to a poster saying he was a free wallet.

It seems like a 4-5 year deal is what the going rate for Kim is. It’s not like he is a completely unknown player. And seems to have more potential than Yamaguchi.

 

[phillipmike]

My thoughts on the Kim negotiations with the Jays;

You can’t help but think that is a opportunity missed at that price. If he flames out then that’s a 6.25M bench player. I believe Shaw made 4.3M last year, Drury was around 4M, and Barney was around 4M when we re-signed him in 2016. All arguably had lower ceilings and upside.

This isn’t the question of giving him the veto. If reports out of Korea is true, the Jays initially didn’t offer the veto in their first 3 offers but did in their last which was too late as he agreed with SD. So this isn’t about the veto, this is about how the FO negotiated the deal - they offered the veto too late.

So if the rumours were true, it can be viewed this was poorly negotiated.

So what if you did give him the veto and he is crap;

1. You wouldn’t give up on Kim after 1 year. If he isn’t any good after 2 years some team may want to roll the dice on a 27 year old with upside making 6.25M a year and has one more year at the same price plus 2 arb years. Maybe you retain, it isn’t fatal.

2. If no team wants him you release him. We paid players like Tulo 20M and 16M to not play for us. And guys like Martin and Morales 10M+ to play for other teams. Even this year Tulo is owed 4M to not play for us during a contending year. So the problem isn’t and shouldn’t have been dead money of 6.25M per.

And here is the kicker for me the Jays gave Yamaguchi a clause to veto a minor league demotion in his contract last year. You can do that for a 30 plus reliever but not a 25 year old SS with 5 tools? Keep in mind he plays a premium position too.

sure the is a difference in a 30 year old player who you viewed is ready vs 25 year old one who may not be. But that isn’t the question because the veto was offered, just too late. And you have to think you do what you can to land the player.

Seems like we took Kim for granted until the last moment and we lost him.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Discoverer]

My thoughts on the Kim negotiations with the Jays;

You can’t help but think that is a opportunity missed at that price. If he flames out then that’s a 6.25M bench player. I believe Shaw made 4.3M last year, Drury was around 4M, and Barney was around 4M when we re-signed him in 2016. All arguably had lower ceilings and upside.

This isn’t the question of giving him the veto. If reports out of Korea is true, the Jays initially didn’t offer the veto in their first 3 offers but did in their last which was too late as he agreed with SD. So this isn’t about the veto, this is about how the FO negotiated the deal - they offered the veto too late.

So if the rumours were true, it can be viewed this was poorly negotiated.

So what if you did give him the veto and he is crap;

1. You wouldn’t give up on Kim after 1 year. If he isn’t any good after 2 years some team may want to roll the dice on a 27 year old with upside making 6.25M a year and has one more year at the same price plus 2 arb years. Maybe you retain, it isn’t fatal.

2. If no team wants him you release him. We paid players like Tulo 20M and 16M to not play for us. And guys like Martin and Morales 10M+ to play for other teams. Even this year Tulo is owed 4M to not pay for us during a contending year. So the problem isn’t and shouldn’t have been dead money of 6.25M per.

And here is the kicker for me the Jays gave Yamaguchi a clause to veto a minor league demotion in his contract last year. You can do that for a 30 plus reliever but not a 25 year old SS with 5 tools? Keep in mind he plays a premium position too.

sure the is a difference in a 30 year old player who you viewed is ready vs 25 year old one who may not be. But that isn’t the question because the veto was offered, just too late. And you have to think you do what you can to land the player.

Seems like we took Kim for granted until the last moment and we lost him.

Wait... where's that coming from? All I've read is that none of the Jays offers included a no-minors clause.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I haven't read a single thing that suggest the Jays offered a no minors clause at any point in the negotiation.

 

[Jozay]

My thoughts on the Kim negotiations with the Jays;

You can’t help but think that is a opportunity missed at that price. If he flames out then that’s a 6.25M bench player. I believe Shaw made 4.3M last year, Drury was around 4M, and Barney was around 4M when we re-signed him in 2016. All arguably had lower ceilings and upside.

This isn’t the question of giving him the veto. If reports out of Korea is true, the Jays initially didn’t offer the veto in their first 3 offers but did in their last which was too late as he agreed with SD. So this isn’t about the veto, this is about how the FO negotiated the deal - they offered the veto too late.

So if the rumours were true, it can be viewed this was poorly negotiated.

So what if you did give him the veto and he is crap;

1. You wouldn’t give up on Kim after 1 year. If he isn’t any good after 2 years some team may want to roll the dice on a 27 year old with upside making 6.25M a year and has one more year at the same price plus 2 arb years. Maybe you retain, it isn’t fatal.

2. If no team wants him you release him. We paid players like Tulo 20M and 16M to not play for us. And guys like Martin and Morales 10M+ to play for other teams. Even this year Tulo is owed 4M to not pay for us during a contending year. So the problem isn’t and shouldn’t have been dead money of 6.25M per.

And here is the kicker for me the Jays gave Yamaguchi a clause to veto a minor league demotion in his contract last year. You can do that for a 30 plus reliever but not a 25 year old SS with 5 tools? Keep in mind he plays a premium position too.

sure the is a difference in a 30 year old player who you viewed is ready vs 25 year old one who may not be. But that isn’t the question because the veto was offered, just too late. And you have to think you do what you can to land the player.

Seems like we took Kim for granted until the last moment and we lost him.

Probably because they got burned by giving Yamaguchi that clause, hence them hesitating to give Kim the same thing.

Havent seen the rumours saying they ended up offering the clause later to Kim, but if thats true, then yeah they messed up the negiotiation.

 

[dredeye]

I never coined the phrase “free wallet” I just replied to a poster saying he was a free wallet.

It seems like a 4-5 year deal is what the going rate for Kim is. It’s not like he is a completely unknown player. And seems to have more potential than Yamaguchi.

I know you didn’t coin the phrase. It’s a Burke thing. Anyway yamaguchi was what I called a bad example. Anyway, I wouldn’t have been upset if we signed him but I’m also not disappointed that we didn’t.

 

[dredeye]

I haven't read a single thing that suggest the Jays offered a no minors clause at any point in the negotiation.

The thing is read yesterday sounded like they only offered it at the very end. But the article wasn’t clear

 

[dredeye]

My thoughts on the Kim negotiations with the Jays;

You can’t help but think that is a opportunity missed at that price. If he flames out then that’s a 6.25M bench player. I believe Shaw made 4.3M last year, Drury was around 4M, and Barney was around 4M when we re-signed him in 2016. All arguably had lower ceilings and upside.

This isn’t the question of giving him the veto. If reports out of Korea is true, the Jays initially didn’t offer the veto in their first 3 offers but did in their last which was too late as he agreed with SD. So this isn’t about the veto, this is about how the FO negotiated the deal - they offered the veto too late.

So if the rumours were true, it can be viewed this was poorly negotiated.

So what if you did give him the veto and he is crap;

1. You wouldn’t give up on Kim after 1 year. If he isn’t any good after 2 years some team may want to roll the dice on a 27 year old with upside making 6.25M a year and has one more year at the same price plus 2 arb years. Maybe you retain, it isn’t fatal.

2. If no team wants him you release him. We paid players like Tulo 20M and 16M to not play for us. And guys like Martin and Morales 10M+ to play for other teams. Even this year Tulo is owed 4M to not pay for us during a contending year. So the problem isn’t and shouldn’t have been dead money of 6.25M per.

And here is the kicker for me the Jays gave Yamaguchi a clause to veto a minor league demotion in his contract last year. You can do that for a 30 plus reliever but not a 25 year old SS with 5 tools? Keep in mind he plays a premium position too.

sure the is a difference in a 30 year old player who you viewed is ready vs 25 year old one who may not be. But that isn’t the question because the veto was offered, just too late. And you have to think you do what you can to land the player.

Seems like we took Kim for granted until the last moment and we lost him.

They negotiated and negotiated hard. They conceded at the end but it didn’t matter. They learned their lesson from yamaguchi but they also only guarantee him 2 years at like a 5th the salary. Those are hugely different deals.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Report: Cubs "Extensively Shopping" Willson Contreras

Contreras on the block. Worth at least 22 million in surplus value going into his last two years of control.

 

[phillipmike]

Probably because they got burned by giving Yamaguchi that clause, hence them hesitating to give Kim the same thing.

Havent seen the rumours saying they ended up offering the clause later to Kim, but if thats true, then yeah they messed up the negiotiation.

Wait... where's that coming from? All I've read is that none of the Jays offers included a no-minors clause.

These were the sources i read 2 days ago but it appears they are changing their tune. Perhaps they updated their report;

[단독] 김하성 잡은 샌디에이고, ‘마이너 거부권’으로 토론토 제쳤다

Ha-seong Kim wanted a minor league veto and Blue Jays didn't insert the clause until the end, but Padres did.

Kim preferred Toronto and Kim's family preferred the West.

Tweet was taken down too.

 

[BAM]

Wonder what the price of Bryant is if the Cubs are going down that road. I think Boras is his agent too.

 

[phillipmike]

MLB's top 10 rotations has a new No. 1

10. Take your pick
A bunch of teams pose an argument for inclusion because of the top end of their rotation.
Brandon Woodruff and Corbin Burnes are the underrated leaders of an underrated Milwaukee staff. In Philly, it gets iffy in a hurry after Aaron Nola and Zack Wheeler, but the Phillies are in great shape in those top two spots. Despite losing Bauer, the Reds still possess Luis Castillo and Sonny Gray (though Gray’s name has come up in the trade rumor mill). The Twins could lose Jake Odorizzi and Rich Hill in free agency but have a strong 1-2 punch in Kenta Maeda and José Berrios. The emergence of Framber Valdez and Cristian Javier demonstrated the Astros’ depth beyond Zack Greinke and Lance McCullers Jr. The Blue Jays have great track record in Hyun Jin Ryu and great upside in Nate Pearson, which is a good start.

Jays should be nowhere near the top 10 unless we add Bauer or 2 of players like Odorizzi, Tanaka and others in that tier.

 

[Maplebeasts]

MLB's top 10 rotations has a new No. 1


Jays should be nowhere near the top 10 unless we add Bauer or 2 of players like Odorizzi, Tanaka and others in that tier.

Yeah that's a bit of a head scratcher. They need to land at least Bauer to join the conversation and another quality arm. Still a solid team overall though.

 

[Dr.Funk]

 

[tokyoite]

Darvish traded to Padres.
Jays name on his no trade list.
He hates cold weather.