Good, that makes them clutch.
This goes back to the 'definition' issue, is clutch over achievement, or is it simple not choking?
Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Madness the 13th: Report - Dickey extended, trade just pending physicals
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Good, that makes them clutch.
This goes back to the 'definition' issue, is clutch over achievement, or is it simple not choking?
Right. But it's not the number of opportunities I'm arguing. It's the percentage at which he converts those opportunities that's higher than usual.
Bomber0104
Registered User
Think of it like a final.
Lets say during the course you get a 88% AVG. By that you should expect that the person would also get an 88% (or at least around a B to A- range). But some people fail. Its not due to the lack of trying. No one should go into the final thinking "hey, I think i'll score a little less for ***** and giggles". Its just some people forget things under pressure, just get over confident or what ever.
NOW exams and hitting are different. But I am sure that players are effected mentally when players are on base opposed to when no one's on. It may be subconscious or to some concious. Its the pressure of 'being the man to run in a score' vs. 'just get on base'.
To end off on that note, I've never been a MLB player (shocking, I KNOW!) and don't know what they see.
So some players get overconfident and take the pitcher for granted? Just like not studying and ****ing up?
THat's a character flaw, not a "clutch" performance in my opinion or lack thereof.
Bomber0104
Registered User
Would the larger sample size have any implications?
Also have we measured the clutchness of the pitchers he is facing?
Because if batters can be aggregated by "clutch", then that would mathematically deduce that pitchers are reciprocally "clutch", no?
thatshype
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We're not talking about the makeup behind academic success vs. athletic success, we're merely talking about the statistics used to judge the scenarios. I'm not talking about how well Dickey did in Grade 10 Social Studies....I'm talking about the usage of statistics to judge a person's performance.
Nah, that's the point of a percentage. Per cent meaning "out of every 100." It standardizes raw data. And now we're talking. I don't have the time for it, but if someone really wanted to dig through the numbers to try and put together an argument for clutch pitching I'd love to take a look at it.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
and if that's how we define clutch, I agree with you. Problem is that's not how most people seem to define it. Lots of people seem to hold the belief that pressure situations make players perform better than they otherwise would. That's what I (and most of the anti-clutch crowd) take issue with: the idea that when the pressure is on, the player emerges with some borderline superhuman ability to just be better than they would the rest of the time.
Bomber0104
Registered User
You don't believe in the law of large numbers?
I don't mean to pry so much but I learn best by asking lots of questions and trying my hardest to prove things wrong.
There might be something to it, when analyzed properly. I guess my position has changed over the course of six posts LOL
Interesting. Do you think though, that in some situation, in some sport, there are athletes who can actually perform better than they usually do in high pressure situations?
Bomber0104
Registered User
See this is what Im talking about. I think it has as much to do with the pitcher as it does to the batter.
With this in mind, in order to really understand just how "clutch" a batter is, you'd have to ADJUST for the pitchers (and their "clutchness") he's faced under these clutch situations (RISP/9th inning).
I think its not 'clutch' as much as it is 'mentality'
It shows more in certain individual sports such as tennis. There's guys who are top players, but if it gets to a deciding set against a comparable or slightly lesser player, you pretty much know they're going to lose. Either they start showing far too much emotion (ie Tipsarevic), no emotion at all (ie Raonic) and you can see it directly affect their play.
But of course, Murray was the definition of this and all of the sudden he wins the Olympics and the US Open. Can someone just overcome their own 'mentality?' I have no idea...
It shows more in certain individual sports such as tennis. There's guys who are top players, but if it gets to a deciding set against a comparable or slightly lesser player, you pretty much know they're going to lose. Either they start showing far too much emotion (ie Tipsarevic), no emotion at all (ie Raonic) and you can see it directly affect their play.
But of course, Murray was the definition of this and all of the sudden he wins the Olympics and the US Open. Can someone just overcome their own 'mentality?' I have no idea...
Yeah but if that was the case then EVERY player would be way better with RISP. But I don't think that's the case. Maybe mildly better, but not as great of a jump as JPA's.
thatshype
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I absolutely think so. In many other sports, exerting yourself harder in a 45 second type period can potentially make a much bigger difference than in baseball. Basketball and hockey are two sports that come to mind where a player can overexert himself in small time-periods during the dying-moments of a game.
Baseball is different in that the pace of the game is slow, comparably speaking. A hyped-up Lebron James can call for a pass and drive to the bucket for a short period of time and score 10 points in a hurry. A hyped-up Ovechkin can lay some big hits for puck turnovers and snipe a GWG. Does Jeter's adrenaline and effort-level suddenly turn him into a .450 hitter? Definitely not.
weems
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I think some people are underrating just how good Dickey has been for the last THREE seasons.
2010-2012:
Pitcher A:
615 IP 2.96 ERA 6.84 K/9 2.19 BB/9 1.15 WHIP- CY Young
Pitcher B:
675 IP 3.17 ERA 8.31 K/9 2.39 BB/9 1.19 WHIP-
Pitcher C:
644 IP 2.93 ERA 8.53 K/9 2.8 K/BB 1.14 WHIP-Cy Young
Pitcher D:
605 IP 3.85 ERA 8.52 K/9 3.36 BB/9 1.28 WHIP
Who is each?
2010-2012:
Pitcher A:
615 IP 2.96 ERA 6.84 K/9 2.19 BB/9 1.15 WHIP- CY Young
Pitcher B:
675 IP 3.17 ERA 8.31 K/9 2.39 BB/9 1.19 WHIP-
Pitcher C:
644 IP 2.93 ERA 8.53 K/9 2.8 K/BB 1.14 WHIP-Cy Young
Pitcher D:
605 IP 3.85 ERA 8.52 K/9 3.36 BB/9 1.28 WHIP
Who is each?
Bomber0104
Registered User
My opinion is that clutch is simply ability narrowed or organized within certain scopes, be it individual situations or within the parameters of the game itself.
Bjorn Le
Hobocop
I'm not that up with the defensive stats, but looking at Jaso and Arencibia, Arenciba's stats are better.
Anyways, Jaso's played 3 seasons in the MLB. One was horrible, far worse than Arencibia's ever been (Last year), one that was better, but he showed power that he's never shown before, and a high BABIP. His power will likely drop, and we probably won't see a near .400 OBP either.
On-base-percentage is more heavily weighed than power it seems, despite Jaso being well below average in other areas.
ya, clutch is way more believable in other sports
in a regular season, i could let a shot through, but in the playoffs, I block it
two different behaviours
in a regular season, i could let a shot through, but in the playoffs, I block it
two different behaviours
p.l.f.
use the force
And I agree with that 100%
If we filter for the last 10 years (min 200 AB), top OPS with RISP
1. Barry Bonds
2. Albert Pujols
3. Joey Votto
4. Allen Craig
5. Manny Ramirez
6. Jeff Bagwell
7. Lance Berkman
8. Adrian Gonzalez
9. Mark Teixiera
10. David Ortiz
Outside of Craig, is that surprising? Sure there may be a couple players who hit a little better or worse with RISP, but on the whole good players are always good.
Eyedea
The Legend Continues
A is Dickey, B is Sabathia, C is Price and D is Lester.
I saw this on Pro Sports Daily.
Lester's numbers look eerily similar to Greinke's.
weems
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A is Dickey, B is Sabathia, C is Price and D is Lester.
I saw this on Pro Sports Daily.
Haha good catch
Do I get in trouble now?
Bomber0104
Registered User
Not at all.
I think we just agreed that if all information was aggregated for both pitching and batting demographics then we could determine the balance between clutch pitchers and clutch batters.
Based on the usual .270 ish averages we see it seems the pitchers have the upper hand in terms of being clutch.
It's then a matter of deducing which batters have the highest "clutch" hitting average against the highest "clutch" out pitchers and adjusting them accordingly such that batters who hit off notorious clutch pitchers are given precedence over the so-called clutch batter who hits off notoriously un-clutch pitchers.
I could probably write the theorem out in a couple of hours if i have time.
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