Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[kb]

It’s because if you went back to peoples post history you can see they engage in conversations only to be told they are wrong. This is not a 1 time thing, it’s been going in for a long time. Most people just don’t bother engaging as it’s not worth the effort. I just put it out there that ALL opinions should be entertained however we have posters that just can’t accept that.

Anyone has a right to like or dislike a trade. I doubt anyone on here is disputing that. The problem lies in opinions posted with either distortion of facts, or the total avoidance of providing any facts to support their opinion. When others respond to these posts with factual information (yes this is a message board for debate and people will respond), that is perfectly allowable and it is the furthest thing from hive mind or gatekeeping. It's because those people have taken the time to do their own research, and formulate their own opinion.

The whole problem with the world today is that we hand out participation ribbons for people who come blasting in with biased and/or unsubstantiated opinions and no one challenges those opinions in the name of "not hurting feelings". This is an actual real world example of hive mind behaviour.

 

[landy92mack29]

All of us agreeing that we aren't a hive mind sounds like something a hive mind would do

One of us, one of us...

 

[dredeye]

I see it all the time here. I don’t post here often, but I’ve probably been following the Jays more than 1/2 this board has been alive. Yet, I get welcomed with “you hockey fans” bla bla bla.

Snobby group that aren’t nearly as smart as they think they are. Not all, but many.

If that were truly the case would you really come here even just to read what’s being discussed? For what sounds like a really long time. I’ve never seen you post here so that’s a pretty bold statement?

 

[Hoverhand]

As someone who supported the Varsho trade from the very beginning, I have a few thoughts.

We went into this offseason with the impression that a catcher was going to get moved for outfield help, I believed Gurriel was going to be out the door anyway because I thought they viewed Teoscar as a long-term piece but wanted to improve defence and give a corner spot primarily to Springer.

Then the rumours started around Jansen and the entirety of American baseball media went "wow!! The Jays have a catcher who put a 2.9bwar in half a season and had a 140 wRC+, maybe they could get a really cool reliever for him."
We knew the Cardinals weren't giving up a piece like Nootbaar for him, because of his recent breakout and the perception around him as a player, his trade value was minimal.

So let's get down to what this is really about, people would have rather traded Kirk. I firmly believe the perceptions about his weight cloud people's judgement despite staying on the field for 140 games this year. We would have been thrilled if Moreno developed into a 4 WAR catcher with elite framing metrics and a wRC+ around 130. The odds that Moreno exceeds that are far from a slam dunk and when you have that kind of value at catcher already developed at such a young age, you just can't trade it away.

Moreno was the guy to give up, it sucks because his athleticism made him a fun player but the disrespect towards Kirk and Jansen is misguided. We got an elite player for him! Sure we added to him but Gurriel's defence sucked and he never had the consistency in his bat to make it worth it. He had a 1 fwar for a reason folks.

 

[AlienWorkShop]

Nootbar, Niniamo... we're looking for baseball players, not bakery products.

*mod's note: This poster has been warned.

 

[Bjindaho]

It seemed like replacing Teo and Gurriel Jr was going to be the plan early. Between articles talking about their D, links to multiple OF. When Teo moved, there were a lot of people who seemed to be missing how much media was coming out suggesting Gurriel in left 100 times wasn't happening again in Toronto.

We've got Swanson, Pearson is likely fighting for a pen spot, Hendriks for Kikuchi plus would be spectacular, plus management always throws offers at guys kicking around when mid-January hits.

We need a 4th OF and arguably could make one of Biggio/Espinal available for an improvement.

Also, guys like Horwitz and Barger might force their way up this year.

 

[canucksfan]

It seemed like replacing Teo and Gurriel Jr was going to be the plan early. Between articles talking about their D, links to multiple OF. When Teo moved, there were a lot of people who seemed to be missing how much media was coming out suggesting Gurriel in left 100 times wasn't happening again in Toronto.

We've got Swanson, Pearson is likely fighting for a pen spot, Hendriks for Kikuchi plus would be spectacular, plus management always throws offers at guys kicking around when mid-January hits.

We need a 4th OF and arguably could make one of Biggio/Espinal available for an improvement.

Also, guys like Horwitz and Barger might force their way up this year.

A lefty bullpen arm would be great along with an outfielder that mashes lefty pitching.

Jays also have Zulueta and Juenger as potential bullpen arms when injuries to the pen occur.

I am probably in the minority but I think Kikuchi will be a decent #5 starter.

 

[TorMapleJays]

We have Bichette.

And he will make a fine second basemen

 

[Beaumaris]

I want to catch a jays game in Seattle someday. Just seems like it would be so electric. This year more so than most.

Done it 3 years ago,Friday night,Saturday,Sunday,brilliant,especially the
Friday game under the lights.Beautiful City,great time.
We done the sweep that weekend.

 

[Beaumaris]

This shows an approximate valuation the trade has. People are allowed to dislike the trade, but they need to be prepared to back it up with something....anything....tangible as evidence. Feelings aren't facts.

The valuations of Kirk and Moreno are very similar. Given a choice in a vacuum, I probably would have preferred to trade Kirk, but I realize that doesn't meet Arizona's wants/needs. Sometimes a team has to give something that hurts a little. But looking big picture, where (and how often) was Moreno going to play on a win now team that had Kirk and Jansen? Who has more value to the Jays, Moreno as a 3rd string C, or Varsho as the LF (CF next season) who also has experience catching?

View attachment 626695

I think we made the right decision of which catcher we traded.

 

[weems]

A lefty bullpen arm would be great along with an outfielder that mashes lefty pitching.

Jays also have Zulueta and Juenger as potential bullpen arms when injuries to the pen occur.

I am probably in the minority but I think Kikuchi will be a decent #5 starter.

Tiedemann could possibly be the lefty option later in the season.

Many teams have done that with their top pitching prospect, bring them up later in the season and pitch out of the bullpen.

Adrian Hernandez is another name that could possibly be an option as he's looked downright dominant many times in his minor career.

96+ from a LHRP would look sick in our BP

 

[canucksfan]

Doesn't include Espinal who's at 106

 

[budzz]

I really think they specifically traded Teo and Lourdes for a reason. While it was fun watching the clubhouse shenanigans, and those 2 usually in the middle of it, I think Brass got tired of it. To me there were times where they were having too much fun, focusing on balancing peanuts on a team mates head instead of what the pitcher is throwing next, but maybe that's me.

A few statements from Atkins seemed to confirm...
“We’re exceptionally excited about these guys we’ve acquired this year, (Erik) Swanson, (Kevin) Kiermaier, (Chris) Bassitt and now Varsho,” Atkins said on a Christmas Eve Zoom call. “How they go about their business, their competitiveness, their focus on process and focus on being good teammates."
“We feel very good about the personality of our clubhouse, feel very good about the professionalism, but always looking to improve and make progress.”

I think he threw in "professionalism" on purpose.

 

[The Nic]

I'm interested to know which of the Jays current players might be positively impacted by the new restrictions that are being placed on the extreme defensive shifting that has taken hold in recent seasons.

 

[Langdon Alger]

And he will make a fine second basemen

That’s not happening.

 

[The Nemesis]

I don’t disagree however many posters here don’t understand that they act very self entitled and they can’t be wrong. I have no issues with the trade but I don’t get upset because someone comes in with a different opinion on the trade.

This is exactly what is wrong with society today. Everyone only wants to hear what they want.

"I'm not upset when people have a different opinion, but those people who have a different opinion are entitled jerks that are what's wrong with society today because I think their opinion is wrong."

Irony.

 

[Puckstuff]

I really think they specifically traded Teo and Lourdes for a reason. While it was fun watching the clubhouse shenanigans, and those 2 usually in the middle of it, I think Brass got tired of it. To me there were times where they were having too much fun, focusing on balancing peanuts on a team mates head instead of what the pitcher is throwing next, but maybe that's me.

A few statements from Atkins seemed to confirm...
“We’re exceptionally excited about these guys we’ve acquired this year, (Erik) Swanson, (Kevin) Kiermaier, (Chris) Bassitt and now Varsho,” Atkins said on a Christmas Eve Zoom call. “How they go about their business, their competitiveness, their focus on process and focus on being good teammates."
“We feel very good about the personality of our clubhouse, feel very good about the professionalism, but always looking to improve and make progress.”

I think he threw in "professionalism" on purpose.

Their boneheaded plays were getting to tiresome for me. People will say there is nothing to this but actions speak louder then words. The final action resulted in both being shipped out. You don’t trade someone for bullpen relief if you really value him. Sure they want long term money for Bo and Vladdy but if they really wanted Teo they would have got him signed imo. Two-way players like Varsho, Chapman, Springer, Jano are our identity now. Players that can’t run bases, play defence or switch off at times are getting moved. Our roster is less offensively gifted but more balanced now.

 

[Bjindaho]

I'm interested to know which of the Jays current players might be positively impacted by the new restrictions that are being placed on the extreme defensive shifting that has taken hold in recent seasons.

Varsho, Biggio, Kiermeier
Edit: Don't forget that that will limit how deep teams can play against Vlad too.

 

[canucksfan]

Varsho, Biggio, Kiermeier
Edit: Don't forget that that will limit how deep teams can play against Vlad too.

I think Springer pulls a lot of balls as well.

 

[The Nemesis]

I think Springer pulls a lot of balls as well.

I want to say Springer was 2nd on the team in pull % while also hitting a fair number of grounders. Danny Jansen was the most pull-happy guy by far, but he's also an extreme fly ball hitter so the shift rules aren't likely doing that much for him.

 

[GreytWun]

"I'm not upset when people have a different opinion, but those people who have a different opinion are entitled jerks that are what's wrong with society today because I think their opinion is wrong."

Irony.

Yes the irony.

 

[Leafblooded]

Bunch of bees in this hive... Buzz buzz buzz

 

[dredeye]

I think Springer pulls a lot of balls as well.

Springer, Varsho and teo are all actually top 15 in pull rate.

Varsho tops the list

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Springer, Varsho and teo are all actually top 15 in pull rate.

Varsho tops the list

Thought it was Chapman, not Teo that was in thr Top 15?

Edit - Perhaps both were, but I was sure Chappy was there.

 

[weems]

I'm interested to know which of the Jays current players might be positively impacted by the new restrictions that are being placed on the extreme defensive shifting that has taken hold in recent seasons.