Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[aight]

If you post something others disagree with, they are allowed to tell you why. It's why we have a discussion board. But instead of responding with a well thought out rebuttal, some just resort to whining about hive-minds and gate keeping.

Imagine we could post without knowing any of those terms or gaslighting etc

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

If you post something others disagree with, they are allowed to tell you why. It's why we have a discussion board. But instead of responding with a well thought out rebuttal, some just resort to whining about hive-minds and gate keeping.

Sure, that's what a forum is for, discussion. But this forum, operates like any other, and to suggest it's an exception is gaslighting.

The format is almost always the same: someone, some newbie (or even oldie) expresses an opinion not shared by the majority, then there's the inevitable pile on by the majority on that guy, and anyone who quietly shares that minority opinion decides not to even express it just because they already saw what happened to the last guy.

There's disagreeing, then there's piling on to score points. How many times do people have to jump on a single poster with the same exact opinion that he knows nothing and he's an idiot because he thought a thing they disagreed with, before it ceases to be constructive to any dialogue?

Reasonable people can disagree on the merits of the trade without "not watching players" or "not knowing anything." To suggest there is no possibility in which this trade doesn't work out for us and shouting down anyone who expresses those concerns is what I mean by "hive mind" tactics and "gate-keeping."

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Odds we draft Homer Bush Jr. in June? What's with these sons of former major league second basemen becoming centerfielders instead haha?

 

[Kurtz]

A hive mind does not know its in a hive mind. It's funny how you're literally gate-keeping as you're trying to say there's no gate-keeping. lol

The idea that "disagreements the regulars have" proves the absence of a hive mind is laughable. There will always be disagreements between the majority of people who subscribe to the accepted narrative and the few people who don't, regular or otherwise. These groups aren't even always the same people. Some people will represent the majority opinion on one subject, then be fighting the majority with their own minority opinion on another.

Using an example from the Leafs. The "Morgan Rielly is an elite defenseman" who can never be discussed in trade scenarios and we must shame anyone who even brings it up hypothetically.

Previously, Luke Schenn is an "elite shut down defenseman" who will be Leafs "captain some day."

Or Dubas is a genius, savant narrative that finally is starting to fade a bit.

These were all once accepted shibboleths that the hive mind defended with religious-like zeal, against anyone who dared question.

You can tell you've disturbed the hive mind when there seems to be an underlying emotional component to someone's attacking your opinion. Like you've just insulted their very existence by daring to believe something otherwise innocuous.

I'll keep to examples on the hockey side so as not to disturb the baseball nest of bees here.

I'll agree with you that there is a funny phenomenon on this board where lots of folks will initially react negatively to a transaction...and then a few folks will rationalize why it makes sense, and by the time all is said and done most love the deal. That happened to the Varsho trade to some extent - I think at first all of us assumed there must be more coming back, but then once the analysts started describing Varsho and we saw the extras - spray charts, shift pulls, scouting reports etc, we've come around.

I'll disagree with you about the hive mind though - the vet posters argue about the colour of the sky on here. I would say the amount of disagreement is correlated to team performance - the worse we do the more disagreeable folks become. But that's fandom.

In regards to older posters attacking newbies when they say something stupid....that certainly used to go on a lot, but I see far less of it now since the departure of a few veteran posters who used to be active here.

ps: And I say this as someone who's been banging his head against the wall for the past 4 years (not literally) trying to convince this board that the importance of bullpens is severely underrated and shouldn't be dismissed as mere voodoo.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

You see what you want to see. Your right weird people make these things up in their head.

*You're* lmao

 

[dredeye]

The hive has spoken.

I remember having concerns about Nate Pearson when it was unpopular. They were just concerns. I didn't say he was going to bust or anything. But almost immediately, the venom frothing at the mouth came as expected.

The fact that you're having such a visceral reaction to something that seems pretty common place to say about any discussion forum (majority opinions try to undermine minority opinions by calling them names, or calling them stupid, and saying they don't know anything) is pretty telling.

My word you two are sensitive souls. We keep repeating the same thing and you two keep going with the same narrative avoiding the actual truth. People are allowed to have opposing views. What is nice in a thread/discussion is having a discussion. Opposing views give opposing examples. I’ve had opposing views to many people here and have found myself on the wrong side through discussion. Because other posters gave examples of their opposing view that opened my eyes to what they were saying. It’s hard to have a discussion when someone comes in and says we overpaid or this is a reaction trade when they don’t discuss it past that claim. That’s not discussion that’s biased narrative. Literally adds no value because it was never meant to be debated.

If you came in and said you had concerns about Nate Pearson but didn’t say why I’m sure I was an opposing view to yours. As would many guys. He has injury concerns now so it’s not exactly going out on the limb anymore so people could easily get behind a statement like that. But if you’re saying you have concerns with no foundation it will get the appropriate response.

 

[dredeye]

I'll agree with you that there is a funny phenomenon on this board where lots of folks will initially react negatively to a transaction...and then a few folks will rationalize why it makes sense, and by the time all is said and done most love the deal. That happened to the Varsho trade to some extent - I think at first all of us assumed there must be more coming back, but then once the analysts started describing Varsho and we saw the extras - spray charts, shift pulls, scouting reports etc, we've come around.

I'll disagree with you about the hive mind though - the vet posters argue about the colour of the sky on here. I would say the amount of disagreement is correlated to team performance - the worse we do the more disagreeable folks become. But that's fandom.

In regards to older posters attacking newbies when they say something stupid....that certainly used to go on a lot, but I see far less of it now since the departure of a few veteran posters who used to be here.

ps: And I say this as someone who's been banging his head against the wall for the past 4 years (not literally) trying to convince this board that the importance of bullpens is severely underrated and shouldn't be dismissed as mere voodoo.

Exactly Kurtz. The amount of bullpen discussions alone that have taken place here is insane. You’ve taken a fair amount of heat from a bunch of us but you defended your opinion with your thoughts and reasoning. Backed it up with well thought out examples etc. I don’t think anyone was ever attacking you.

 

[aight]

I’ve got my tickets for July 22/23 in Seattle. Two weekend day games breaks from the usual Saturday 7pm pst at T-Mobile. Better for most of the fanbase for sure.

 

[dredeye]

I’ve got my tickets for July 22/23 in Seattle. Two weekend day games breaks from the usual Saturday 7pm pst at T-Mobile. Better for most of the fanbase for sure.

I want to catch a jays game in Seattle someday. Just seems like it would be so electric. This year more so than most.

 

[aight]

I want to catch a jays game in Seattle someday. Just seems like it would be so electric. This year more so than most.

Ugh, it’s what, a six game losing streak to those pricks? But yes. I absolutely recommend it if you can.

 

[dredeye]

Sure, that's what a forum is for, discussion. But this forum, operates like any other, and to suggest it's an exception is gaslighting.

The format is almost always the same: someone, some newbie (or even oldie) expresses an opinion not shared by the majority, then there's the inevitable pile on by the majority on that guy, and anyone who quietly shares that minority opinion decides not to even express it just because they already saw what happened to the last guy.

There's disagreeing, then there's piling on to score points. How many times do people have to jump on a single poster with the same exact opinion that he knows nothing and he's an idiot because he thought a thing they disagreed with, before it ceases to be constructive to any dialogue?

Reasonable people can disagree on the merits of the trade without "not watching players" or "not knowing anything." To suggest there is no possibility in which this trade doesn't work out for us and shouting down anyone who expresses those concerns is what I mean by "hive mind" tactics and "gate-keeping."

Why are you now consistently saying people that don't agree with you are gaslighting? I'd say that's what you're doing at this point. I'll speak to what I generally do so you maybe get a bit of an understanding of why it may appear to some like people are getting ganged up on like you say. I'm speaking for myself here so I'm not sure this is the case for everyone. I have an hf tab open on my phone at all times. When I come on to check what's happening I'll just refresh the page. There could be three or four more pages since my last post but I pick up from where I left off. So I'll often respond to a comment that's three pages back from where the thread is at. What that can result in is me responding to stuff from like a previous day that people are done talking about. I don't know this until i catch up reading but I suppose it can look like in that instance I'm piling on to a point that's already been made. There's no gang mentality here but I know a few guys on here who's opinions on the Jays I hold in high regard. There is a lot of knowledge to be attained here and some good back and forth. I does not appear as though you can handle opposing views though. Message boards may not be the place for you.

 

[aight]

Why are you now consistently saying people that don't agree with you are gaslighting? I'd say that's what you're doing at this point. I'll speak to what I generally do so you maybe get a bit of an understanding of why it may appear to some like people are getting ganged up on like you say. I'm speaking for myself here so I'm not sure this is the case for everyone. I have an hf tab open on my phone at all times. When I come on to check what's happening I'll just refresh the page. There could be three or four more pages since my last post but I pick up from where I left off. So I'll often respond to a comment that's three pages back from where the thread is at. What that can result in is me responding to stuff from like a previous day that people are done talking about. I don't know this until i catch up reading but I suppose it can look like in that instance I'm piling on to a point that's already been made. There's no gang mentality here but I know a few guys on here who's opinions on the Jays I hold in high regard. There is a lot of knowledge to be attained here and some good back and forth. I does not appear as though you can handle opposing views though. Message boards may not be the place for you.

I like this post.

 

[MAB1]

The hive has spoken.

I remember having concerns about Nate Pearson when it was unpopular. They were just concerns. I didn't say he was going to bust or anything. But almost immediately, the venom frothing at the mouth came as expected.

The fact that you're having such a visceral reaction to something that seems pretty common place to say about any discussion forum (majority opinions try to undermine minority opinions by calling them names, or calling them stupid, and saying they don't know anything) is pretty telling.

So sensitive...

You having concerns about Pearson was fine then and now. Did you ever explain why? I used to be a pitching coach at the NCAA level...did you think it was his mechanics/delivery? imbalanced strength? weighted ball routine?

You just say things, give no supporting argument why and then get sensitive when people disagree.

It's like you come here with your opinion and then when you realize most don't share that view you get all emotional talking about "hive mind" and "gatekeeping".

 

[MAB1]

Sure, that's what a forum is for, discussion. But this forum, operates like any other, and to suggest it's an exception is gaslighting.

The format is almost always the same: someone, some newbie (or even oldie) expresses an opinion not shared by the majority, then there's the inevitable pile on by the majority on that guy, and anyone who quietly shares that minority opinion decides not to even express it just because they already saw what happened to the last guy.

There's disagreeing, then there's piling on to score points. How many times do people have to jump on a single poster with the same exact opinion that he knows nothing and he's an idiot because he thought a thing they disagreed with, before it ceases to be constructive to any dialogue?

Reasonable people can disagree on the merits of the trade without "not watching players" or "not knowing anything." To suggest there is no possibility in which this trade doesn't work out for us and shouting down anyone who expresses those concerns is what I mean by "hive mind" tactics and "gate-keeping."

That's the case with any trade...

So you basically want to come here and state your opinions with no proof/back-up, and then when you get corrected on it you get sensitive and call it "hive mind tactics and gate-keeping". Discussion can only happen when you share why you have the opinions you do. You don't though, you just complain people won't agree with a lazy premise you made up in your mind.

 

[kb]

This shows an approximate valuation the trade has. People are allowed to dislike the trade, but they need to be prepared to back it up with something....anything....tangible as evidence. Feelings aren't facts.

The valuations of Kirk and Moreno are very similar. Given a choice in a vacuum, I probably would have preferred to trade Kirk, but I realize that doesn't meet Arizona's wants/needs. Sometimes a team has to give something that hurts a little. But looking big picture, where (and how often) was Moreno going to play on a win now team that had Kirk and Jansen? Who has more value to the Jays, Moreno as a 3rd string C, or Varsho as the LF (CF next season) who also has experience catching?

 

[Bjindaho]

Sure, that's what a forum is for, discussion. But this forum, operates like any other, and to suggest it's an exception is gaslighting.

The format is almost always the same: someone, some newbie (or even oldie) expresses an opinion not shared by the majority, then there's the inevitable pile on by the majority on that guy, and anyone who quietly shares that minority opinion decides not to even express it just because they already saw what happened to the last guy.

There's disagreeing, then there's piling on to score points. How many times do people have to jump on a single poster with the same exact opinion that he knows nothing and he's an idiot because he thought a thing they disagreed with, before it ceases to be constructive to any dialogue?

Reasonable people can disagree on the merits of the trade without "not watching players" or "not knowing anything." To suggest there is no possibility in which this trade doesn't work out for us and shouting down anyone who expresses those concerns is what I mean by "hive mind" tactics and "gate-keeping."

It's possible that people have stated their points incorrectly and haven't stepped back to correct them, but some of the recent posts that have been jumped on are:

Moreno is a stud MLBer with a handful of at-bats, prospects are always worth less than MLBers, Varsho can't hit, Swanson is a low leverage reliever because Seattle used him as one.

None of these brought any support for the opinion and argued directly against support.

Moreno might become an all-star but he's not one yet (unlike Kirk), Moreno for Varsho is good, but Moreno for Luzardo (for example), would have been stupid. Varsho's numbers translate extremely well to Toronto (like JD to Toronto well) and Swanson's usage is a headscratcher because he was their best reliever.

Now, the original points could have been that Moreno should have been worth more, that even at the Moreno stage, there's still a decent chance he doesn't fully develop, that Varsho might somehow not translate, and that Swanson isn't enough.

Those are all decent talking points and ones that can be supported.

We aren't a hive mind, but using Pat and Buck logic puts up a brick wall for discussion (because it doesn't offer support or allow a proper counter).

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Last few pages are unreadable.

Perhaps time for a new thread.

 

[Cor]

Last few pages are unreadable.

Perhaps time for a new thread.

Didn’t think my opinion on the trade would result in a large debate about beehives and gate locks or whatever this is about lmao

 

[GreytWun]

This trade will be fun to look back on in 4 to 5 years.

I think everyone can agree with this.

 

[GreytWun]

If you post something others disagree with, they are allowed to tell you why. It's why we have a discussion board. But instead of responding with a well thought out rebuttal, some just resort to whining about hive-minds and gate keeping.

It’s because if you went back to peoples post history you can see they engage in conversations only to be told they are wrong yet the facts don’t illustrate they are completely wrong.

As one other poster said let’s move on. Just wish others would not put other posters down and allow them to engage. It’s pretty sad when only the same 10-15 posters continue to post here.

 

[GreytWun]

double post

 

[weems]

I'd much rather have made this trade for Varsho than giving up Tiedemann for Reynolds.

I get the reservations about giving up such a good prospect in Moreno but I think Varsho's upside and skillset has been somewhat underrated by some since the trade.

I would also imagine there's a very large component to the fact the shift is being banned and Varsho pulled the ball more than any other player in the MLB last season along with being a left handed hitter and those players where the one's who got wrecked the most by the shift.

If you're an organization that believes many players were greatly effected by this defensive strategy, now is the time to buy low on certain pull hitter because there's a good chance this time next year, you'll have to spend quite a bit more in trade to acquire the same player.

 

[Anthrax442]

Normally, the Jays thread is more reasonable and pleasant to read. Thanks for ruining that.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

A hive mind does not know its in a hive mind. It's funny how you're literally gate-keeping as you're trying to say there's no gate-keeping. lol

The idea that "disagreements the regulars have" proves the absence of a hive mind is laughable. There will always be disagreements between the majority of people who subscribe to the accepted narrative and the few people who don't, regular or otherwise. These groups aren't even always the same people. Some people will represent the majority opinion on one subject, then be fighting the majority with their own minority opinion on another.

Using an example from the Leafs. The "Morgan Rielly is an elite defenseman" who can never be discussed in trade scenarios and we must shame anyone who even brings it up hypothetically.

Previously, Luke Schenn is an "elite shut down defenseman" who will be Leafs "captain some day."

Or Dubas is a genius, savant narrative that finally is starting to fade a bit.

These were all once accepted shibboleths that the hive mind defended with religious-like zeal, against anyone who dared question.

You can tell you've disturbed the hive mind when there seems to be an underlying emotional component to someone's attacking your opinion. Like you've just insulted their very existence by daring to believe something otherwise innocuous.

I'll keep to examples on the hockey side so as not to disturb the baseball nest of bees here.

I see it all the time here. I don’t post here often, but I’ve probably been following the Jays more than 1/2 this board has been alive. Yet, I get welcomed with “you hockey fans” bla bla bla.

Snobby group that aren’t nearly as smart as they think they are. Not all, but many.

 

[Canada4Gold]

All of us agreeing that we aren't a hive mind sounds like something a hive mind would do