Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[Zur En Arrh]

Or you know the fact they were on their last year of their contracts. Everything doesn’t need to be a conspiracy

Or the fact that they were exactly what he said. Seems pretty straightforward and un conspiratorial...people are weird lmao..

 

[dredeye]

Here we go.

Imagine if they back out too. Where does he go from there? One year show me deal?

 

[Ale Brew]

Imagine if they back out too. Where does he go from there? One year show me deal?

With our luck to the Yankees on a huge discount. :/

 

[SeaOfBlue]

With our luck to the Yankees on a huge discount. :/

Maybe Boston... or San Fran.

 

[Brown Dog]

I mean, this Varsho deal seems brutal to me. I can see moving Moreno/Gurriel in an all-in move but getting a guy who derives most of his value from defense when we already committed to Kiermaier and lost a lot of production in Teo seems dumb. Having an emergency third catcher is a nice bonus, but that's small consolation for losing our top prospect.

 

[kb]

I mean, this Varsho deal seems brutal to me. I can see moving Moreno/Gurriel in an all-in move but getting a guy who derives most of his value from defense when we already committed to Kiermaier and lost a lot of production in Teo seems dumb. Having an emergency third catcher is a nice bonus, but that's small consolation for losing our top prospect.

How to say you don't know the player (Varsho) without saying you don't know the player.

 

[Bjindaho]

If we keep Kikuchi or sign a guy like Kluber, we could line up the staff:

Manoah, Berrios, Gausman, Kikuchi/Kluber, Bassitt which would alternate catchers so that no one would start back to back behind the plate until game 6

 

[Dr.Funk]

How to say you don't know the player (Varsho) without saying you don't know the player.

Some people need to stay up late a few times a year and watch the west coast games.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

How to say you don't know the player (Varsho) without saying you don't know the player.

I mean let's be real, no one here really watches Arizona games, including people who support this move. But where is his post wrong exactly, other than not mentioning power?

 

[Woodman19]

I mean let's be real, no one here really watches Arizona games, including people who support this move. But where is his post wrong exactly, other than not mentioning power?

I mean we just replaced Teos 30 HR's, low OBP, and a ton of strikeouts with Varsho, the plus being he can actually play defense and run the bases as well.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I mean we just replaced Teos 30 HR's, low OBP, and a ton of strikeouts with Varsho, the plus being he can actually play defense and run the bases as well.

What does that have to do with anything he or I said?

Nothing he said was factually incorrect.

Varsho does get most of his value from his defense and we did lose a lot of production after trading Teo.

Varsho's only had one season with a higher wrc+ than ANY of Teo's seasons with Toronto, and that was only by 3 points. And he's never hit 30 homeruns either, just as a factual matter. Not to mention Varsho also strikes out a lot relative to the rest of the league (24.5% where anything above 22% is considered below average), walked only a few percentage points more last year (and still below the league average of 8.2%), plus has potential platoon issues.

 

[GreytWun]

Or the fact that they were exactly what he said. Seems pretty straightforward and un conspiratorial...people are weird lmao..

You see what you want to see. Your right weird people make these things up in their head.

 

[trellaine201]

Has Correa had a major injury in the past few years?

 

[kb]

I mean let's be real, no one here really watches Arizona games, including people who support this move. But where is his post wrong exactly, other than not mentioning power?

Well, not mentioning his youth, his power, his no-nonsense playing style, his defense at a premium position (will be full time CF next season after KK leaves), and his potential for growth in a park (and division) that doesn't look like it has the parks and staffs that will be able to hold him in the yard as much, as well as the banning of the shift. He's a proven MLB player who was top-10 (WAR) at his position and comes with 4 years of control. Those don't exactly grown on trees either.

Moreno is most certainly a top notch prospect, but it's not like Kirk and Jansen are anything to sneeze at. The Jays are well covered at C, and have more in the pipeline. Moreno currently has some questions about his game calling and power. Not big ones, but ones nonetheless.

The question boils down to this. Who provides more value today to a win now team? Moreno may have even started in Buffalo.....or at the very least, played infrequently, and all over the diamond.

You give to get. And according to baseball trade values, the D-backs were the ones who overpaid.

 

[Woodman19]

What does that have to do with anything he or I said?

Nothing he said was factually incorrect.

Varsho does get most of his value from his defense and we did lose a lot of production after trading Teo.

Varsho's only had one season with a higher wrc+ than ANY of Teo's seasons with Toronto, and that was only by 3 points. And he's never hit 30 homeruns either, just as a factual matter. Not to mention Varsho also strikes out a lot relative to the rest of the league (24.5% where anything above 22% is considered below average), walked only a few percentage points more last year (and still below the league average of 8.2%), plus has potential platoon issues.

Okay how about these Facts, Teo is gone and Varsho is a Jay.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Okay how about these Facts, Teo is gone and Varsho is a Jay.

Ooh, you got me! Epic pwnage!

I'm not even a Teo fan. Just pointing out that when you're trying to pwn a guy, at least let him be saying something that's not true. lol

Moreno is most certainly a top notch prospect, but it's not like Kirk and Jansen are anything to sneeze at. The Jays are well covered at C, and have more in the pipeline. Moreno currently has some questions about his game calling and power. Not big ones, but ones nonetheless.

The question boils down to this. Who provides more value today to a win now team? Moreno may have even started in Buffalo.....or at the very least, played infrequently, and all over the diamond.

You give to get. And according to baseball trade values, the D-backs were the ones who overpaid.

Probably for the best as Jano might end up on the IR for a month.

 

[Eyedea]

Bears repeating that Varsho was very pull dominant in 2022, the most in his pro career. And when he pulled, most balls were on the ground. He hit .183 on grounders, one of the lowest averages amongst qualified hitters. The shift ban could very well help elevate his babip/avg.

 

[Suntouchable13]

What does that have to do with anything he or I said?

Nothing he said was factually incorrect.

Varsho does get most of his value from his defense and we did lose a lot of production after trading Teo.

Varsho's only had one season with a higher wrc+ than ANY of Teo's seasons with Toronto, and that was only by 3 points. And he's never hit 30 homeruns either, just as a factual matter. Not to mention Varsho also strikes out a lot relative to the rest of the league (24.5% where anything above 22% is considered below average), walked only a few percentage points more last year (and still below the league average of 8.2%), plus has potential platoon issues.

I don't really see anything not to like about this deal. This team needed to sacrifice a little bit of offence to get better on D. When healthy, which hopefully will be a lot (knock on wood) an outfield of KK-Varsho-Springer is excellent. Top of the line. When you have 3 center fielders playing at the same time, good luck to any ball dropping in the outfield. Who cares bout Teo? who cares about Gurriel? We needed a culture shakeup. Those 2 gone is big, and we get that much better defensively in the outfield. This is a GREAT move.

 

[MAB1]

I wonder where the Jays farm ranks now after the trade

 

[Dr.Funk]

Bears repeating that Varsho was very pull dominant in 2022, the most in his pro career. And when he pulled, most balls were on the ground. He hit .183 on grounders, one of the lowest averages amongst qualified hitters. The shift ban could very well help elevate his babip/avg.

Playing more games in hitter friendly parks of the AL east will benefit aswell.

 

[dredeye]

How to say you don't know the player (Varsho) without saying you don't know the player.

Was going to post the something very similar. I’ve been known to have a reactionary post in my time here but that is so full of fail it’s insane

 

[Canada4Gold]

I wonder where the Jays farm ranks now after the trade

I think Moreno counted as graduated since he was on the MLB roster for a certain amount of time(or reached a certain number of PA I'm not sure). So he likely wasn't including in farm system rankings already. Some publications may vary on that though. He was already removed from MLB.com

 

[MAB1]

I think Moreno counted as graduated since he was on the MLB roster for a certain amount of time(or reached a certain number of PA I'm not sure). So he likely wasn't including in farm system rankings already. Some publications may vary on that though. He was already removed from MLB.com

Yeah I just realized he's no longer considered a prospect so the Jays farm ranking wasn't impacted by that trade.

 

[dredeye]

I mean, this Varsho deal seems brutal to me. I can see moving Moreno/Gurriel in an all-in move but getting a guy who derives most of his value from defense when we already committed to Kiermaier and lost a lot of production in Teo seems dumb. Having an emergency third catcher is a nice bonus, but that's small consolation for losing our top prospect.

I mean, this Varsho deal seems brutal to me. I can see moving Moreno/Gurriel in an all-in move but getting a guy who derives most of his value from defense when we already committed to Kiermaier and lost a lot of production in Teo seems dumb. Having an emergency third catcher is a nice bonus, but that's small consolation for losing our top prospect.

Committed to Keirmaier? He’s on a one year deal is the first issue. Varsho replaces Teo’s power and we’ll likely see his totals go up playing in the al east. Gurriel holds little value so he’s never part of an “all in deal”. Our top prospect at a position with are loaded at already with two top end catchers. Varsho is a third catcher if needed in a pinch. Brings more to the base paths. Not having to watch teo make brutal plays in the field will be a good thing. Both he and Gurriel are on the final years of their deals and we weren’t locking either up long term so we cashed out the best they could. I’m very happy they did. I personally had the two of them being traded this off season on my wish list. We all had high hopes for Moreno and it sucks losing him but he was expendable. The return is fantastic. You may not like it now but you’ll love it when you get to watch elite d in the field every night. You know who loves this outfield immediately? Every pitcher on this team is now better by default. So it may seem brutal to you at this point because you don’t know enough about him yet but it appears we got the better end of this deal and that alone should have you pumped

Don’t know why it double quoted you there. Sorry

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

6

Wasn’t sure but thought something like that, so we’re at a net loss for controllability and, subject to argument, number and strength of assets as well? Yikes. I like the player but do not like the trade, personally