Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[TheMadHatTrick]

Hypothetical roster:

Lineup

Springer LF
Kiermeier CF
Bo SS
Vlad 1B
Varsho RF
Kirk DH
Chapman 3B
Jansen C
Espinal 2B

Bench

Biggio 2B/LF/1B
Merrifield 2B/LF
Grossman LF

Rotation

Gausman
Manoah
Bassitt
Berrios
Kikuchi/White/Tiedemann

Bullpen

Romano
Swanson
Garcia
Moore
Pearson
Cimber
Mayza

 

[phillipmike]

Not a bad jersey swap;

 

[ItalianLeaf]

Moreno has performed in both the minors and the majors. Martin performed in neither. Nothing comparable there. It's like comparing Pearson to Tiedemann and saying we should have traded him for Reynolds because they could end up as busts.

there are tons of prospects that have performed in the minors and even had a cup of coffee like moreno in the bigs and still became absolutely nothing. The premise is, he could end up being a nothing burger. Prospects are what they are. Pearson at one point was the “untouchable” and now not so much. Moreno is the new fresh hotshot prospect and could end up as nothing. Tiedemann is no sure thing either. There is an absolute yuuuge list of busts.

The Jays got someone who is proven, controllable for 4yrs, has elite defense and can even play catcher so theoretically we still have 3 potential catchers if we absolutely needed but obviously he is playing in the outfield and arguably there is a lot of untapped potential in that bat while hitting left. Like I said, it could be a win win scenario for both teams. When you are in win now mode, sometimes you have to gamble and that is exactly what atkins did.

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

This move and the Teo move are very much about 2024 as much as 2023. I think having Chapman, Teo, and Lourdes all leave next off season would put the Jays in a tough spot. Really hard to sign free agents in this landscape where you have owners blowing well past the luxury tax. This pretty much simplifies the Jays 2023 off season to needing a LF(which is one of the easier spots to fill via free agency) and potentially 3B (if chappy rejects QO and leaves).

 

[dredeye]

It will be interesting to see how much the shift effected Varsho's approach and also results.

Here's a great quote on how the shift has influenced certain players mindset at the plate.

"A pull-hitter that faces constant infield shifts may adapt their swing to elicit more flyballs over line drives and groundballs, as the former is the only guaranteed way to beat the infield shift. But when this type of shift is banned, a player could level out their swing. A possible differentiation in plate approach makes the inclusion of all batted balls necessary."

Varsho ranked #1 in MLB last season in pull %

View attachment 626050

It will be interesting to see how much the shift effected Varsho's approach and also results.

Here's a great quote on how the shift has influenced certain players mindset at the plate.

"A pull-hitter that faces constant infield shifts may adapt their swing to elicit more flyballs over line drives and groundballs, as the former is the only guaranteed way to beat the infield shift. But when this type of shift is banned, a player could level out their swing. A possible differentiation in plate approach makes the inclusion of all batted balls necessary."

Varsho ranked #1 in MLB last season in pull %

View attachment 626050

The jays have three guys in the top fifteen. No shift really should help us quite a bit

 

[phillipmike]

These 11 teams are the most improved of the winter

The goal of the Hot Stove season is to get better. But that means different things to different teams. Some are playoff-caliber clubs looking for that last little bit of oomph they need to win it all. Others are also-rans looking for a way in. So rather than rank the

www.mlb.com

4. Blue Jays
While the Teoscar Hernández trade did rob the Blue Jays of some offensive thump, the subsequent deal for Daulton Varsho adds power from the left side. And the signing of center fielder Kevin Kiermaier allows them to move George Springer to right field and gives them a significant improvement defensively. The Blue Jays also now have three viable playoff starters (four, if José Berríos rights himself) after inking Chris Bassitt. The acquisition of Erik Swanson in the Hernández trade brought needed upside to the bullpen.

 

[habamillions]

there are tons of prospects that have performed in the minors and even had a cup of coffee like moreno in the bigs and still became absolutely nothing. The premise is, he could end up being a nothing burger. Prospects are what they are. Pearson at one point was the “untouchable” and now not so much. Moreno is the new fresh hotshot prospect and could end up as nothing. Tiedemann is no sure thing either. There is an absolute yuuuge list of busts.

The Jays got someone who is proven, controllable for 4yrs, has elite defense and can even play catcher so theoretically we still have 3 potential catchers if we absolutely needed but obviously he is playing in the outfield and arguably there is a lot of untapped potential in that bat while hitting left. Like I said, it could be a win win scenario for both teams. When you are in win now mode, sometimes you have to gamble and that is exactly what atkins did.

Brett lawrie comes to mind

 

[phillipmike]

Surprised that Gurriel was the sticking point.

 

[trellaine201]

Personally, I couldn’t stand Teo or Lourdes. They aren’t professionals and don’t give a damn about defence. To each their own

Teo really bothered me lol seems like a nice guy but also kinda lazy in the field. He did have a good bat though.

 

[canucksfan]

Teo really bothered me lol seems like a nice guy but also kinda lazy in the field. He did have a good bat though.

I don't think he was lazy but he lost focus at times and made some careless mistakes.


EDIT: Just found this on Twitter. Not related to the reply above.

 

[Leafblooded]

Varsho is Matt Chapman all over again

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Varsho is Matt Chapman all over again

Also, if he's playing the outfield with Keirmeier won't they minimize each other's range impact since both cover so much territory individually?

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

Also, if he's playing the outfield with Keirmeier won't they minimize each other's range impact since both cover so much territory individually?

It’s bad to have too much ground covered ? I too think it will be Chapman ish . The d is awesome and the power will play well in the East . Ks are inevitable but I think batting and on base totals have realistic room to go up .

 

[TGB]

MORENO! NOOOOOO!!!!

...but it had to be done, and I figured everyone would be asking for Moreno. I'm sure the Jays are still having nightmares of juicy hits being snagged by speedy Mariners outfielders. Ultimately, a superb fielding outfielder we'll have for years in a position where the Jays have no depth that has proven he can at least put up Grichuk numbers (please don't be another Grichuk) and is still plenty young enough to potentially put up more is more valuable to the team's overall health than a third offensive catcher they were thinking about playing at third and in left just to find room for him.

But still. Ouuuuuuuch.....

Still kind of sucks losing Gurriel and Teo in contract years, when players have a habit of exploding, while retaining two rapidly aging outfielders. I figured they needed to be traded at some point but still.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Surprised that Gurriel was the sticking point.

Guess they are still looking at Hendriks?

 

[jetsforever]

Pretty disappointed in trading Moreno, although I like what I hear about Varsho
I don't love losing Gurriel's personality either after Hernandez already

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I might need those tissues again. That’s 40+ HRs and I forgot about no shift.

We went from needed left handed OFs to having an abundance and needing a right handed hitting OF.

I dunno, I think the need for a left handed bat was overstated. This team has no problems crushing right handed pitching.

 

[Discoverer]

Also, if he's playing the outfield with Keirmeier won't they minimize each other's range impact since both cover so much territory individually?

They can just alter their positioning to cover more ground. Kiermaier can play a little more towards RF knowing Varsho has most of the LF/CF gap covered.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

We are going from arguably the worst outfield defense in baseball to next year an outfield of Springer-KK-Varsho comfortably being the best outfield D in the league.

 

[Ciao]

I dunno, I think the need for a left handed bat was overstated. This team has no problems crushing right handed pitching.

I think the concern was the Blue Jays lineup was too homogenous, and would benefit from giving pitchers different looks. It was too easy to settle into a rhythm facing Blue Jays batters.

Aside from handedness, I would like to see more Blue Jay hitters take pithcers deep into counts. I think Teo did that pretty well. Not sure who else. Bo swings early.

 

[MikeK]

Management continues to clean house on the clubhouse moving out yet another long time personality. Looks like fans weren't the only ones who had grown tired of the frat-house mentality which had developed in Toronto.

I like the trade. Most people do not like change but change needed to happen. There was something rotten with this team and the roster that was in place at seasons end was never going to win anything.

 

[Bjindaho]

This is a Demar Derozan trade type offseason. We moved a popular performer to change the culture and improve.

Right now, I see varsho in cf because he's the best of 3 cf. Now, we get a Grossman style OF, with Kiermeier - Varsho - Springer being our starting OF.

We could also pursue a Hendriks deal if they do like Kikuchi (i think some here underestimate his value) and go after a guy like Kluber for SP. Also, expect some minor league deal w invite for some relievers.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Not a huge fan of this trade tbh. Moreno, out of the 3 would have been off limits for me. He can contribute as soon as this season, he’s just the more economical, long term play imo. Varsho isn’t good enough to give that up.

I think the team is in better shape, I just think we traded the wrong catcher.

 

[Bjindaho]

Food for thought:

While wRC+ adjusts to a factor, it doesn't account for specifics.

If Varsho's last year would have had approximately 13 more HR in the AL East, assuming all of them were doubles in AZ, the difference between him and Teo would be .013 OPS.

 

[MAB1]

Not a huge fan of this trade tbh. Moreno, out of the 3 would have been off limits for me. He can contribute as soon as this season, he’s just the more economical, long term play imo. Varsho isn’t good enough to give that up.

I think the team is in better shape, I just think we traded the wrong catcher.

- Jansen isn't worth Varsho
- Kirk is a top 3 catcher in all of MLB, if you're trying to compete, you're not trading him
- I get this site is HF but y'all hockey fans coming here like Moreno being a franchise player is set in stone couldn't be further from the truth.

Objectively, Moreno is their worst catcher (with the most potential). They traded him for a player that would've led the Jays in fWAR last year and addresses one of their biggest needs (long-term OF solution w Springer)