Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition 5.0 - The Winter Meeting Chronicles

[veedubn1]

member when Toronto fans didn't know/care they were being gouged and were expected to show up and support an inferior product?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Why hasn't anybody brought up Angel Pagan, He's still in the board and he's better than Saunders and probably Bruce.

Can play left and bat leadoff

Brought him up in early November. I think the roster I posted had them resigning EE, and signing Pagan, Pearce, and Joyce.

I note that Pagan-Joyce would likely cost what Morales did aav, with shorter term.

 

[Discoverer]

It would be awesome if they could bring in Luis Valbuena as a sort of super-utility guy, but I assume he'll find a 3B job somewhere.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

It would be awesome if they could bring in Luis Valbuena as a sort of super-utility guy, but I assume he'll find a 3B job somewhere.

Was thinking the same thing the other day. But the 3B market is quite strange this offseason. The best overall free agent in the class (Turner) is still unsigned.

 

[UnknownNasty]

The Toronto sports fan is being taken advantage of once again. They're really overestimating the draw of baseball in this city... it's like they've forgotten it was just a short time ago they could barely draw 19,000 to the Dome.

Exactly, that's what I've been saying during this offseason: the Jays' management needs to spend money to keep their fans. Whether you like it or not, most Blue Jays are band wagoners who just hopped on the bandwagon when they started winning. I can guarantee you that a large percentage of current Blue Jays "fans" have no idea who Vernon Wells, Roy Halladay, Carlos Delgado, etc. are. Of course, there will always be the few diehard fans who stick with the team no matter what, but all the others will stop caring after they start losing for a few years. The Jays' management needs to realize that they have to spend money to keep the fans interested in the team.

 

[Woodman19]

Exactly, that's what I've been saying during this offseason: the Jays' management needs to spend money to keep their fans. Whether you like it or not, most Blue Jays are band wagoners who just hopped on the bandwagon when they started winning. I can guarantee you that a large percentage of current Blue Jays "fans" have no idea who Vernon Wells, Roy Halladay, Carlos Delgado, etc. are. Of course, there will always be the few diehard fans who stick with the team no matter what, but all the others will stop caring after they start losing for a few years. The Jays' management needs to realize that they have to spend money to keep the fans interested in the team.

The Jays management knows they need to win to keep the fans interested in the team. Winning matters, not spending money and the two are not always related.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Exactly, that's what I've been saying during this offseason: the Jays' management needs to spend money to keep their fans. Whether you like it or not, most Blue Jays are band wagoners who just hopped on the bandwagon when they started winning. I can guarantee you that a large percentage of current Blue Jays "fans" have no idea who Vernon Wells, Roy Halladay, Carlos Delgado, etc. are. Of course, there will always be the few diehard fans who stick with the team no matter what, but all the others will stop caring after they start losing for a few years. The Jays' management needs to realize that they have to spend money to keep the fans interested in the team.

The extra 20k or so were people who would watch the games on tv instead of buying a ticket, not pro0le who just learned what baseball is.

 

[zeke]

The Jays management knows they need to win to keep the fans interested in the team. Winning matters, not spending money and the two are not always related.

a bit of both.

iirc, the fan change was pretty instantaneous after we traded for tulo and price, even though we were just a .500 team at the time.

 

[Woodman19]

a bit of both.

iirc, the fan change was pretty instantaneous after we traded for tulo and price, even though we were just a .500 team at the time.

and they stayed away when we brought in Reyes, Buerhle and Dickey and lost 90 games.

 

[showtime8]

The Jays management knows they need to win to keep the fans interested in the team. Winning matters, not spending money and the two are not always related.

That's very true.

But for so long the average fan has seen the Yankees and Red Sox own the division by spending the money to win.

So they relate winning to spending money.

The Indians got to the World Series with an opening day payroll below 90mill.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I've decided I want EE back
Alert the media

 

[oilers89]

I agree that we need to upgrade the OF big time. But people saying we need to spend more money are ridiculous and must forget that about 5 years ago our payroll was under 100 mill. It is going to be around 165 mill this season. That should be plenty of dough to put a winning team on the field

 

[ShaneFalco]

While the Cardinals have already made two significant additions via free agency, they could consider a third, according to Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. St. Louis is expected to consider free agents Edwin Encarnacion and Mark Trumbo, both of whom exited the Winter Meetings without a contract. Either of those players would presumably factor at first base for the Cards, if they are ultimately pursued. Though the team has said it intends to utilize Matt Carpenter there, he could theoretically shift back to third base if one of those big bats were to be added. (Matt Adams also remains on hand, though the organization already has signaled that it will not use him as a regular option at first with Carpenter’s position change.) Of course, both Encarnacion and Trumbo are somewhat questionable targets for a National League team, since both could well need to shift to a pure DH role at some point in the coming years. Unsurprisingly, then, it seems the Cardinals’ interest may be limited to a scenario where Encarnacion or Trumbo is forced to consider a shorter-term pact, ESPN.com’s Mark Saxon notes on Twitter.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/...igning-trade-prospects-alex-reyes-rumors.html

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Fun: the top ten 1B/DH prospects in baseball according to MLB.com are as follows:

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016?list=1b

Of these prospects, 8/10 have reached AA. Each of those players was 21 years old during their double-A seasons, with the exception of "#1" Bell (who repeated at 22), "#6" Shaw (22), and "#9" Gillaspie (23).

Of these eight prospects, the one with the highest wOBA (.405), wRC+ (152), and ISO (.233) was "#10" Rowdy Tellez.

 

[Discoverer]

Fun: the top ten 1B/DH prospects in baseball according to MLB.com are as follows:

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016?list=1b

Of these prospects, 8/10 have reached AA. Each of those players was 21 years old during their double-A seasons, with the exception of "#1" Bell (who repeated at 22), "#6" Shaw (22), and "#9" Gillaspie (23).

Of these eight prospects, the one with the highest wOBA (.405), wRC+ (152), and ISO (.233) was "#10" Rowdy Tellez.

Not a surprise, really. Scouts still don't really like him and he had the most impressive statistical season of any 1B prospect.

 

[Leaftors]

Not a surprise, really. Scouts still don't really like him and he had the most impressive statistical season of any 1B prospect.

Do you think he's going to get some AB's in the majors this year?

 

[Canada4Gold]

Not a surprise, really. Scouts still don't really like him and he had the most impressive statistical season of any 1B prospect.

I'll take me some, "ah he had the stats to impress, but I don't see the tools carrying over to make a solid major leaguer" over "Man the numbers weren't there as much, but those tools look like he's gonna be pretty awesome once he figured it all out"

Basically I'd take Devon Travis over Anthony Gose

Granted Gose might not be the best example, he had some good stats for a while. How did I not know he hit 16 homeruns for NH in 2011?

 

[Canada4Gold]

Do you think he's going to get some AB's in the majors this year?

Yes. I want him as an option to start the year, and while that may be getting a tad carried away, half a year in Buffalo he really need to be up if Smoak is getting too many at bats and struggling.

 

[zeke]

and they stayed away when we brought in Reyes, Buerhle and Dickey and lost 90 games.

reyes, buehrle, dickey were never price and tulo.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Not a surprise, really. Scouts still don't really like him and he had the most impressive statistical season of any 1B prospect.

Moreover, using a sample of the top twenty five position players, while discluding middle infielders (attempting to make the sample Bat first players rather than those who add value because of their defense), 14 have reached Double-A.

Moncada, Meadows, Benintendi, Brinson, Frazier, Bell, Judge, Zimmer, Berlinger, Renfroe, Verdugo, N. Williams, Winker, D. Smith.

Of those 14, only one (Meadows .417/161/.299) had a better Double-A performance than Tellez.

 

[zeke]

yup, rowdy is a fantastic case of stats v scouting.

every level of stats, from top to bottom, say he's a top prospect.

but most every interweb scouty guy thinks he's a borderline prospect at best.

i'll bet on the numbers myself.

 

[teeder333*]

How the heck does a small city like St. Louis command these types of dollar decisions and we, the New York of Canada, don't? Pathetic.

If the Jays get off to a bad start, watch crowds go down to their 16k, I will enjoy that. A lot. If it occurs. Not the bad start, the kick to the groin of the corps that own the Jays.

 

[TorMapleJays]

How the heck does a small city like St. Louis command these types of dollar decisions and we, the New York of Canada, don't? Pathetic.

If the Jays get off to a bad start, watch crowds go down to their 16k, I will enjoy that. A lot. If it occurs. Not the bad start, the kick to the groin of the corps that own the Jays.

Because they are the Cardinals. They are like the leafs. A very long history and a very long bloodline of fans.

 

[UnknownNasty]

The extra 20k or so were people who would watch the games on tv instead of buying a ticket, not pro0le who just learned what baseball is.

From what I've seen, that's absolutely false. One of my friends, who had never been interested in baseball in the past, bought tickets to around twenty games this season. The last season and a half created millions of new fans, and a large percentage of those fans will become disinterested as soon as the team starts losing. The Jays have new fans and the owners need to spend money to keep them.

The Jays management knows they need to win to keep the fans interested in the team. Winning matters, not spending money and the two are not always related.

You absolutely have to spend money to win, especially if you want to do it for a long enough time. Most of the teams with the lowest payrolls are either rebuilding teams (Brewers, Rockies, Braves) or teams with tons of talented young players who will all need to be paid in the next 3-4 years (Indians, Astros, Mets). Unfortunately for the Blue Jays, they don't have that collection of young talent, which means that they need to pay to keep their veterans if they want to win. At some point, a team needs to spend money if they want to win for an extended period of time. In the Blue Jays' case, if they don't spend money this offseason, their window is closed for the next 5-10 years, maybe more.

 

[phillipmike]

how they treated EE last offseason can't be left out, though.

they decided to go with an "All Business, No relationship" approach from the start with EE and Jose, so can't be blameless for them returning that favor now.

“They don’t have it in their plans for me to stay here.â€

He was not angry. He did not raise his voice. He sounded sad and resigned to the fact he will be moving to a different team in 2017.

“I tried to do the best for my team, I feel as if I have done all I can do for my team,†said Encarnacion, who turns 34 next January. “I want to be here for a long time.â€

His agent, Paul Kinzler, said at the winter meetings in December that opening day would be the deadline for negotiations, which Encarnacion did not want continuing into the season. The Jays made a two-year offer.

Encarnacion has not had an at-bat this spring, missing time because he had a tooth pulled and then strained an oblique muscle. Does his contract situation have anything to do with him not playing?

“No,†Encarnacion said, scrunching up his face. “I want to be 100 per cent. The oblique pain is minor, but I want to be ready for opening day. I don’t want to aggravate it, miss two months.â€

EE and his agent were to blame for the ST negotiations as well. They told the new FO who were 5 months on the job that he wouldn't negotiate in season and they needed to sign him before the season. Then EE went and proceeded not to take a ST at bat. His stupid agent wanted a new FO to sign a 34 year old DH with health problems to a long term deal while he was currently hurt. Might have worked with AA as he has interacted with Edwin for 7 years.

Shapiro offered him a 2 year deal in ST, Edwin declined. After the season they offered him 4 years, Edwin declined. The rumor is at the Winter Meetings Edwin couldn't get a 3 year deal. So maybe the Jays offer was fair. This is a reflection of how bad Edwin and Kinzer read the market not on Shapiro and Atkins.