Post-Game Talk: octopuss

[Machinehead]

Some counterpoints:

1. Sather is there to make sure things stay on track - according to the vision of his employer and himself. That's the crux of the matter that @Machinehead and others are pointing at. That is why Gorton was jettisoned - Sather and Drury want to make the playoffs, and they want the team to *LOOK* like a contender. That's the extent of their ambition.

Gorton tried to bring in a more profound approach - to build a real team without the fundamental flaws Machinehead points at and bring an intelligence to the operations that is lacking. Sather and Dolan were not interested, that approach took Sather and Dolan out of their comfort zone i.e. no yearly playoffs. (Look at Gorton now at the Habs, the first thing he did was to bring in somebody *smart* - K. Hughes). Quinn was under the whip to make the playoffs last year, even if it was obvious the team had no business being there.

2. This is why Gallant is now sitting there like a fool and talking about wanting more from *'his'* team (just like Quinn was left in no man's land before him) but it's not 'his' crew - the Stars of the team don't give a sh*t they just float about playing to the *IMAGE* of what the NYR should be. Create pond hockey highlight reels, make the playoffs and everything is ok in NYR land.

The Stars know it 100% - it's what gave them the big meal ticket and set them up for life. Sather & The Stars are completely on the same page. Look at the fawning over Henrik Lundqvist that became borderline obscene - that's the NYR in a nutshell.

3. Mika & Panarin. Panarin doesn't last three shifts next to Mika. He hates it! I know they should play on the same line - but it doesn't work because it would require them to do real hockey.

4. Get real centers that actually do center things. This is crucial. But watch Strome get extended because it's the path of least resistance. Just keep up the illusion and all's well in Rangerland. The fans can pretend they have a shot in the playoffs and the circus rolls on. See points 1-3.

5. Laf & Kakko. The kids are left as afterthoughts around the stars. Kakko is doing what he can, working hard to make himself a 200-foot hockey player and build himself up for better days. For Laffy if he cannot make it work reasonably playing with Mika and Kreider he'll be screwed.

6. I know a lot of people are completely on board with Sather & Dolan's approach - just make the playoffs and all's good. If there are problems kick down and blame the kids/coach.

I think it's more culture than Sather himself.

The Rangers suffer from the fact that they're the Clippers and they think they're the Lakers. This organization oozes Real Madrid ego with a Real Sociedad trophy cabinet.

You might think that's insignificant but tell me that doesn't describe every forward but Kreider. Tell me these guys aren't picking that up. Zibanejad and Panarin are too good to do anything that isn't padding their totals. Lafreniere is a massive disappointment and walking around with a grin on his face like he's God's gift to hockey. Kakko is a kid who I think does the right things but lacks agency and isn't fitting into this carnival.

My thing with Sather is 1) I don't think that culture can change until everyone from the old guard is purged no matter how big their influence actually is and 2) I don't know, at my age, how much this existed before Sather but his ego can't help, and he certainly gave birth to the "county club Rangers" era.

 

[McRanger]

Glad to see you have come around that it's not about coaching.

Its about coaching. At least partially.

Its just not about one particular coach.

If the Rangers continue to play the same system under Gallant that they played under Quinn, a system that seems to be designed to bleed shots and chances, they are going to have the same crappy 5v5 results and only win when the goaltending is outstanding or special teams saves them.

The effect coaching has on results tends to be overstated but if you dont have a system designed to do something (forechecking, neutral zone play, transition, anything really) effectively you are probably going to have poor results at 5v5. And that is a serious problem.

 

[Fitzy]

I don't buy the idea that we're struggling because we don't have PMD's. Nemeth sucks but that's about it.

Miller and Lindgren are proficient, Trouba is a plus, and Fox is the best PMD in the league.

Could we use another one, particularly to replace Nemeth? Absolutely. But to say that's the reason we look like this? There's no way.

The more I see it, the more I think it's by design. The only way an NHL team is this bad at 5v5 this consistently (with a roster that has holes but isn't bad by any stretch!) is if it's a blind spot in their gameplan.

Yes, we've changed coaches and changed execs but sports franchises have cultures. Ever since Lundqvist debuted, this team dies at the alter of "keep it to the outside" and it's gotten to the point where if they don't have an odd-man rush, they literally just let the other team have the puck because heaven forbid the opponent ever got behind us.

Why you wouldn't want to be more aggressive with the league's best goalteding and go balls out to keep the puck is another question.

It takes time to change a culture, and more than anything, it takes admitting there's a problem. That's why, while you call it moping, I'm very annoyed that this team is being carried by their goalie. The longer that happens, the longer they're ok with it.

I think it's peculiar that you want the team to be more aggressive and take more gambles when that was the exact kind of play under AV that gave this team its characteristic style from 2014-2016. Stretch passes, odd man rushes against, and being a team that survived on high percentage scoring chances rather than sustained pressure.

I see the team trying to be too pretty in the neutral zone actually hurting our offensive productivity more than a simple dump-and-chace emphasis ever would. If our players were more willing to be cynical and put the puck deep (And then go after possession) instead of always trying to gain the zone with possession, I genuinely think you'd see this team get more shots. They'd be lower percentage shots, sprung from cycle and possession against an opponent who has all 5 players back in their own zone, but you would decrease the chances against just by virtue of making the opponent have to work for every zone entry of their own.

It would make for a much less pretty game, but at the very least the Rangers 3rd and 4th lines should be playing Tortorella hockey. Put it deep unless there's an easy entry, get the puck to the point and shoot for rebounds and deflections in front. Leave the tik tak toe stuff to the Mika and Panarin lines.

I've talked about being more aggressive with a star goalie before, intuitively it makes sense that if you've got a goalie that stops a lot more pucks than the average guy it's conducive to taking more risks. Completely agree there. But I don't think that's going to help your complaint that the team gets outplayed and outshot.

Our team gets outshot because our offensive zone visits tend to be quick, to the point, either a goal or a quick clearance. Our defensive zone play, on the other hand, can be very long with multiple failed clearings because our blueliners aren't good about getting the puck out clean, and also refuse to make the cynical hockey play off the glass as much as they should.

So I guess our prescriptions for the team are just completely opposite. I think the roster needs more cycling and dump and chase.

 

[chosen]

It took him about 10-15 games to 'get' how things work in Rangerland. Same with Kravtsov.

Reaves was like this the last couple seasons in Vegas. That's why they didn't re-sign him.

 

[chosen]

My reasoning for rooting to miss the playoffs is f*** 'em. I understand many fans will never think that, but that's my reasoning.


Not when they're playing on a pretend hockey team. I refuse to judge forwards as individuals in this organization. Even Panarin sucks at everything but the powerplay now.

You're free to root anyway you want.

Blaming the team for Kakko scoring once every 20 games is pure bullshit.

"Panarin sucks at everything but..." is somehow a worse opinion than Kakko can't score because he's a Ranger.

Rooney has more goals than Kakko.

Goodrow has twice as many goals as Kakko.

Maybe Kakko will still work out, but right now, offensively he is worth near zero.

 

[FOD]

eh I don't think he's the issue.

We saw the team play properly before Covid. I don't know what happened/changed since then but the differences are prevalent. If a team isn't working hard, you need to beat it out of them. You practice like you play and that's the issue.

IMO this team needs a bootcamp mentality when they come back from break

How do you know this team doesn't practice hard? Do you watch all their practices?

 

[will1066]

I think it's peculiar that you want the team to be more aggressive and take more gambles when that was the exact kind of play under AV that gave this team its characteristic style from 2014-2016. Stretch passes, odd man rushes against, and being a team that survived on high percentage scoring chances rather than sustained pressure.

I see the team trying to be too pretty in the neutral zone actually hurting our offensive productivity more than a simple dump-and-chace emphasis ever would. If our players were more willing to be cynical and put the puck deep (And then go after possession) instead of always trying to gain the zone with possession, I genuinely think you'd see this team get more shots. They'd be lower percentage shots, sprung from cycle and possession against an opponent who has all 5 players back in their own zone, but you would decrease the chances against just by virtue of making the opponent have to work for every zone entry of their own.

It would make for a much less pretty game, but at the very least the Rangers 3rd and 4th lines should be playing Tortorella hockey. Put it deep unless there's an easy entry, get the puck to the point and shoot for rebounds and deflections in front. Leave the tik tak toe stuff to the Mika and Panarin lines.

I've talked about being more aggressive with a star goalie before, intuitively it makes sense that if you've got a goalie that stops a lot more pucks than the average guy it's conducive to taking more risks. Completely agree there. But I don't think that's going to help your complaint that the team gets outplayed and outshot.

Our team gets outshot because our offensive zone visits tend to be quick, to the point, either a goal or a quick clearance. Our defensive zone play, on the other hand, can be very long with multiple failed clearings because our blueliners aren't good about getting the puck out clean, and also refuse to make the cynical hockey play off the glass as much as they should.

So I guess our prescriptions for the team are just completely opposite. I think the roster needs more cycling and dump and chase.

Puck retrieval is the root of the problem. They do dump the puck for entries when the other team has 5 guys back; it's not all possession entries. Problem is, they dump but don't chase hard and are weak on board play, so they don't get the puck back. Other teams are also able to transition once they get possession because we're slow on those unsuccessful dumps and we lose a ton of 50/50 board battles in the o-zone. They turn it around quickly.

I think cycle hockey can be pretty actually. In the first year of Panarin, there was a lot of cycle play with his line as well as Zib's line. They loved to do those low-high cycles where all 5 players were moving and rotating, loved doing those switches and pick plays at the points. Panarin and Strome had Fast. Whatever he did, Fast helped enable those entries and zone time. KZB had Buch, and they had cycle play. From that first year to now, Panarin and Zib's lines have morphed into mostly getting offense off the rush.

Yesterday, in one of the few sustained offensive zone shifts for Panarin's line, we saw the low-high cycle play, and the defensemen did throw shots on net as part of the zone strategy. I think other teams do a more conventional dump, chase, cycle, and shots from the point, where they don't do those low-high cycles and switches and the dmen remain at the points. The forwards work the puck back to the points. The dmen in our low-high cycles went down the walls, went deep, made plays, returned to the points.

So, the Rangers can still do the pretty hockey off the cycle. And, what enabled that shift yesterday was Hunt. He was able to at least pin the puck on the end boards and give Panarin and the others time to get established in the o-zone.

 

[McRanger92]

How do you know this team doesn't practice hard? Do you watch all their practices?

Im also surprised by this apparent culture issue that's popping up because they've hit their first rough stretch of the season. The break is coming at a good time for the fanbase too.

 

[CLW]

I think it's more culture than Sather himself.

The Rangers suffer from the fact that they're the Clippers and they think they're the Lakers. This organization oozes Real Madrid ego with a Real Sociedad trophy cabinet.

You might think that's insignificant but tell me that doesn't describe every forward but Kreider. Tell me these guys aren't picking that up. Zibanejad and Panarin are too good to do anything that isn't padding their totals. Lafreniere is a massive disappointment and walking around with a grin on his face like he's God's gift to hockey. Kakko is a kid who I think does the right things but lacks agency and isn't fitting into this carnival.

My thing with Sather is 1) I don't think that culture can change until everyone from the old guard is purged no matter how big their influence actually is and 2) I don't know, at my age, how much this existed before Sather but his ego can't help, and he certainly gave birth to the "county club Rangers" era.

I see it more as Sather personifies this culture and the owner is happy to have it this way. Associate with winners and all is good (even if the actual result is meager). Bare cupboards as you said. I tried to point at that when I talked about Image being important to the Rangers and the way they went over the top (imo) in idolizing Lundqvist. It's the f***ing Hunger Games Capital and it's eating the soul of the team. Are you surprised the kids are in defensive shells?

It's very much like the Habs have an organizational history that impacts everything they do. It's the same with the Rangers. Now Gorton AGAIN finds himself in a job where he is trying to save an organization from itself. I think the Habs owner sensed this and gave Gorton the job because he has experience from the Rangers and Boston, and Gorton began with hiring a guy he hopes is sharp enough to cut through the BS. I'm not as familiar with Boston but I don't think they have the problem to the same extent the Rangers and Habs do.

 

[kovazub94]

...It would make for a much less pretty game, but at the very least the Rangers 3rd and 4th lines should be playing Tortorella hockey. Put it deep unless there's an easy entry, get the puck to the point and shoot for rebounds and deflections in front. Leave the tik tak toe stuff to the Mika and Panarin lines.
...

A key difference is that Tort's era BOTH 3rd and 4th lines were much closer to the league-standard average 3rd compared to now when our 4th is barely adequate and through injuries and covid the team has been forced to often use it as a 3rd and AHL tweeners line as a 4th.

 

[CLW]

Reaves was like this the last couple seasons in Vegas. That's why they didn't re-sign him.

I saw that, so why I was reluctant to sign him. But then he actually played hockey for a few weeks, he looked like a fighter, and the 4th line was good. And then he started to do glitzy pond hockey plays and lost his belly for fighting i.e. he adapted and became a Ranger.

 

[FOD]

I used to love coming on this site to get accurate information, news and analysis on the Rangers that I could not get anywhere else. Info was often posted here before anywhere else. For instance back in 2011 I found out that Callahan's ankle was broken by a Chara shot before anybody else had it. Now it just seems like a bunch of 12 year olds whining and complaining. The Rangers have the 7th highest point percentage in the league. They have played the most road games in the league. They are the 4th youngest team in the league. They have a world class goalie, world class defensemen, two world class forwards and the league leader in goals. But yeah, lets bitch about their underlying possession numbers. What a joke!

 

[duhmetreE]

I saw that, so why I was reluctant to sign him. But then he actually played hockey for a few weeks, he looked like a fighter, and the 4th line was good. And then he started to do glitzy pond hockey plays and lost his belly for fighting i.e. he adapted and became a Ranger.

It's hard to be a hockey player with a lobster bar and cashmere robe pre-game.

 

[kovazub94]

I used to love coming on this site to get accurate information, news and analysis on the Rangers that I could not get anywhere else. Info was often posted here before anywhere else. For instance back in 2011 I found out that Callahan's ankle was broken by a Chara shot before anybody else had it. Now it just seems like a bunch of 12 year olds whining and complaining. The Rangers have the 7th highest point percentage in the league. They have played the most road games in the league. They are the 4th youngest team in the league. They have a world class goalie, world class defensemen, two world class forwards and the league leader in goals. But yeah, lets bitch about their underlying possession numbers. What a joke!

12 year-olds-like bitching and whining is the state of the world.

 

[leetch99]

He hasn't registered on the scoreboard once in the last eight. Five of which were multi-pointers.
4th in assists and 10th in points league-wide. Let's bootcamp the sh*t out of him!
Boy, do fans love to construct convoluted stuff on the Internet.

As for patting on the back when he "left the team for 3 weeks" I refuse to believe the main reason for the whole circus was the "security people making calls" as Gorton went on record to say. That is, the over-reaction by a trigger happy business when it comes to the image and sh*t. Exactly what the hack job was aiming for.
Until proven otherwise.

Just imagine what we could have if he brought that same effort every game .

 

[Machinehead]

You're free to root anyway you want.

Blaming the team for Kakko scoring once every 20 games is pure bullshit.

"Panarin sucks at everything but..." is somehow a worse opinion than Kakko can't score because he's a Ranger.

Rooney has more goals than Kakko.

Goodrow has twice as many goals as Kakko.

Maybe Kakko will still work out, but right now, offensively he is worth near zero.

It's not really an opinion that Panarin is bad at even strength at this point.

 

[cheech70]

Its not that deep. Yesterday's game was an atrocity but the team has no depth, its as simple as that. I dont get why people are now convincing themselves that the core is rotten, despite them being the only players who show up on a nightly basis.

The Core 6.................23-10-31-8-20-93...are carrying team and also aging( hopefully like the Capitals)..so we have a window of 4 years with The Core 6. This year is above expectations to me.....but they will be rising in the next few years. Kaako is an enigma...will he be or will he not be..major chip for next offseason.

 

[chosen]

Its about coaching. At least partially.

Its just not about one particular coach.

If the Rangers continue to play the same system under Gallant that they played under Quinn, a system that seems to be designed to bleed shots and chances, they are going to have the same crappy 5v5 results and only win when the goaltending is outstanding or special teams saves them.

The effect coaching has on results tends to be overstated but if you dont have a system designed to do something (forechecking, neutral zone play, transition, anything really) effectively you are probably going to have poor results at 5v5. And that is a serious problem.

Do you really believe that there are simple fixes to the system employed that fans can see but coach after coach can't figure out?

Why is it that on other teams Gallant was considered by some, including some here, to be a great coach?

Besides personnel, what is different here?

Did Gallant become a moron?

If you're saying he is coaching here in a style to make management happy, that would make him a total moron and I don't believe he is.

He's the same coach, coaching the same way he did everywhere unless he has somewhat adapted his system to his personnel, which would make sense.

By the way, no matter how you slice it this team is much higher in the standings than you could have dreamed before the season.

Are they a Cup contender? No.

Did you expect them to be? No.

The simple answer to everything is usually overlooked. They're not good enough, yet, but they're ahead of schedule on the rebuild. Is it going to work out?

Who knows, but if Kakko and Laf were doing what everyone thought they'd do, the Rangers would be a Cup contender, but there's no one to blame for that. Every team in the NHL would have drafted both of them where the Rangers did.

It was AV's fault.

It was Quinn's fault.

Now it's Gallant's fault.

That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Machinehead]

I think it's peculiar that you want the team to be more aggressive and take more gambles when that was the exact kind of play under AV that gave this team its characteristic style from 2014-2016. Stretch passes, odd man rushes against, and being a team that survived on high percentage scoring chances rather than sustained pressure.

I see the team trying to be too pretty in the neutral zone actually hurting our offensive productivity more than a simple dump-and-chace emphasis ever would. If our players were more willing to be cynical and put the puck deep (And then go after possession) instead of always trying to gain the zone with possession, I genuinely think you'd see this team get more shots. They'd be lower percentage shots, sprung from cycle and possession against an opponent who has all 5 players back in their own zone, but you would decrease the chances against just by virtue of making the opponent have to work for every zone entry of their own.

It would make for a much less pretty game, but at the very least the Rangers 3rd and 4th lines should be playing Tortorella hockey. Put it deep unless there's an easy entry, get the puck to the point and shoot for rebounds and deflections in front. Leave the tik tak toe stuff to the Mika and Panarin lines.

I've talked about being more aggressive with a star goalie before, intuitively it makes sense that if you've got a goalie that stops a lot more pucks than the average guy it's conducive to taking more risks. Completely agree there. But I don't think that's going to help your complaint that the team gets outplayed and outshot.

Our team gets outshot because our offensive zone visits tend to be quick, to the point, either a goal or a quick clearance. Our defensive zone play, on the other hand, can be very long with multiple failed clearings because our blueliners aren't good about getting the puck out clean, and also refuse to make the cynical hockey play off the glass as much as they should.

So I guess our prescriptions for the team are just completely opposite. I think the roster needs more cycling and dump and chase.

That was AV's system in 2014 and most of 2015, the two best seasons of my life sans '94.

By 2016 his system had devolved into the 0-5, back up until you hit the wall, do nothing, dump and chase but hold the chase. That's when folks got sick of him.

I'm not prescribing a run and gun system. I'm just saying doing that because you have the best goalie in the league makes more sense than being hyper conservative because you have the best goalie in the league, which actually doesn't make sense at all.

Given the choice, I'd rather do what you're suggesting. A forecheck-heavy team with one line that's allowed to f*** off is how many winners are constructed.

 

[duhmetreE]

How do you know this team doesn't practice hard? Do you watch all their practices?

It's self evident. It's not rocket science. You practice how you will play. A team that practices hard isn't going to come out with half assed efforts...

To add to it, we don't practice often but when we do, it's predominantly Special Teams work.

Further, Gallant literally said, 'his practices would be 'light'. It's apparent this vet group has struggled to self govern.

 

[chosen]

I saw that, so why I was reluctant to sign him. But then he actually played hockey for a few weeks, he looked like a fighter, and the 4th line was good. And then he started to do glitzy pond hockey plays and lost his belly for fighting i.e. he adapted and became a Ranger.

Looked like a fighter?

Reaves has had 2 fights in the entire season.

I think 63 players have had more fights.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I think the NYR actually dump the puck plenty. They get to it often. But then they have no clue what to do next except rotate the puck and themselves around a 3ft perimeter of the offensive zone along the boards. Yesterday their best extended period of play was a 2-shift stretch (lol) in the second where they were cycling well and the kicker, really using the dmen well (Lindgren and Schneider were on I believe) to move the puck creatively among all 5 players. Then Zac Jones came on, did a really nice job in the neutral zone to spring Zibanejad back into the zone with a head of steam.

To me what they don't do well, that many of the good teams do well (Canes, Panthers, Avs for sure do this) is carry the puck with speed, under great control, into the offensive zone, as an (at minimum) 3 man forward unit. Watching the Canes, their forwards just constantly control the puck from the red line, over the blue line, as a 3 man unit and then create a 3-on-2, 2-on-1 with a net crasher type of situation where the goal is simply to get towards the middle of the ice in space and get a shot. This also requires team cohesion and execution from the dmen to spring their forwards with speed.

The NYR too often get bad breakout "passes" i.e. borderline blind clears into space, forwards are disjointed and not moving in unison, too many forwards are just flat out too slow to execute this (Kakko), too bad of puck handlers to execute this (Kreider, Chytil, frequently Lafreniere, Hunt), or intentionally choose not to play this way and intentional slow the game down near the blueline (Panarin, Strome). Zibanejad is one of the few players the NYR have who can play like this consistently. It's an issue that transcends roster construction, team culture/dynamics, and pure gameplan x's and o's.

 

[jay from jersey]

I think Zib has been hustling like hell on D.

hustling and being good at it aren’t the same thing... howden hustles his ass off. I’d still rather have Rooney as a 4C....

Zibby tries to avoid contact whenever possible, a big difference from his bowling ball play from years ago.
Whether he’s scared of injuries/concussions or has just adapted his game over the years for longevity to be more of a Panarin-esque player, he’s more of a perimeter/finesse center then a hard nosed N/S player.

his shot is his moneymaker. And lately he’s been playing well and moving his feet more and it’s put him in better scoring positions.

 

[leetch99]

He hasn't registered on the scoreboard once in the last eight. Five of which were multi-pointers.
4th in assists and 10th in points league-wide. Let's bootcamp the sh*t out of him!
Boy, do fans love to construct convoluted stuff on the Internet.

As for patting on the back when he "left the team for 3 weeks" I refuse to believe the main reason for the whole circus was the "security people making calls" as Gorton went on record to say. That is, the over-reaction by a trigger happy business when it comes to the image and sh*t. Exactly what the hack job was aiming for.
Until proven otherwise.

FYI....he is 48th in points in the league per 60 at even strength . Lots of effort on PP though in most games...certainly a lot more making less and giving better efforts across the league then him in 5 on 5 play though . That's OK you focus on them 8 games . NHL Scoring Leaders 2021-2022

 

[will1066]

Do you really believe that there are simple fixes to the system employed that fans can see but coach after coach can't figure out?

Why is it that on other teams Gallant was considered by some, including some here, to be a great coach?

Besides personnel, what is different here?

Did Gallant become a moron?

If you're saying he is coaching here in a style to make management happy, that would make him a total moron and I don't believe he is.

He's the same coach, coaching the same way he did everywhere unless he has somewhat adapted his system to his personnel, which would make sense.

By the way, no matter how you slice it this team is much higher in the standings than you could have dreamed before the season.

Are they a Cup contender? No.

Did you expect them to be? No.

The simple answer to everything is usually overlooked. They're not good enough, yet, but they're ahead of schedule on the rebuild. Is it going to work out?

Who knows, but if Kakko and Laf were doing what everyone thought they'd do, the Rangers would be a Cup contender, but there's no one to blame for that. Every team in the NHL would have drafted both of them where the Rangers did.

It was AV's fault.

It was Quinn's fault.

Now it's Gallant's fault.

That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Quinn stressed and urged for things that his players didn't do. Now, Gallant is showing displeasure at certain aspects of their game. It's not a coincidence.