so, i was the guy who asked for this, thanks, as always - this must be the 6th private request you have granted.
I didnt request how they moved up or down from regular career points, but it is very interesting that you put that in. I was talking today to my Crosby-loving, Ovechkin-detracting buddy. I was trying to convince him that Ovechkin is actually a decent passer, but that wingers usually are the ones finishing the play, and rarely lead the league in assists. I said it would be wrong to expect a winger to be a huge assist compiler, as when you score it negates any secondary assist you might have gotten, ad you dont ever get faceoff win assists. Conversely, centremen compile a ton of secondary assists due to faceoffs and to digging the puck out of the back end, or transfering the puck from neutral ice.... they dont play as 'forward' as the wingers do, typically.
i showed how, in the top 100 career assist players, more dmen are there than wingers, kr at least its close.
So, anyways. the interesting part is that you have included where they fell or rose from regular point totals.
I notice that, with definite exceptions, wingers have rose, many of them by a LOT, centers have fallen perhaps a bit overall, and defencemen have REALLY FALLEN.
Now, none of this needs to be about Crosby or Ovechkin, but it could be looked at in a way of rating positional players by way of their deployment. centers, maybe to a small degree, and defencemen to a large degree, live off of takeaways and making good, smart zone exits over and over at a high percentage. Wingers are there to capitalize, and not to play a 200ft game...... simplistically speaking.
I like beer, though, so...
Someone asked me for a list of the players with the most primary points. Here's the list as of yesterday (November 18th, 2024) - looking only at the 99 players with 1,000+ total points:
| Player | Primary | Rank (all) | Rank (prim) | Difference |
| Wayne Gretzky | 2,218 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| Gordie Howe | 1,547 | 4 | 2 | 2 |
| Jaromir Jagr | 1,450 | 2 | 3 | -1 |
| Mark Messier | 1,445 | 3 | 4 | -1 |
| Marcel Dionne | 1,393 | 6 | 5 | 1 |
| Ron Francis | 1,346 | 5 | 6 | -1 |
| Mario Lemieux | 1,344 | 8 | 7 | 1 |
| Steve Yzerman | 1,342 | 7 | 8 | -1 |
| Alex Ovechkin | 1,299 | 13 | 9 | 4 |
| Phil Esposito | 1,273 | 11 | 10 | 1 |
| Sidney Crosby | 1,225 | 10 | 11 | -1 |
| Joe Sakic | 1,202 | 9 | 12 | -3 |
| Teemu Selanne | 1,177 | 18 | 13 | 5 |
| Dale Hawerchuk | 1,132 | 22 | 14 | 8 |
| Brett Hull | 1,129 | 25 | 15 | 10 |
| Stan Mikita | 1,126 | 17 | 16 | 1 |
| Joe Thornton | 1,113 | 14 | 17 | -3 |
| Mark Recchi | 1,108 | 15 | 18 | -3 |
| Mike Gartner | 1,091 | 33 | 19 | 14 |
| Doug Gilmour | 1,084 | 21 | 20 | 1 |
| Brendan Shanahan | 1,083 | 28 | 22 | 6 |
| Luc Robitaille | 1,083 | 24 | 21 | 3 |
| Mats Sundin | 1,076 | 30 | 23 | 7 |
| Johnny Bucyk | 1,075 | 27 | 24 | 3 |
| Dave Andreychuk | 1,071 | 31 | 25 | 6 |
| Bryan Trottier | 1,066 | 19 | 26 | -7 |
| Jari Kurri | 1,064 | 23 | 27 | -4 |
| Denis Savard | 1,056 | 32 | 28 | 4 |
| Jarome Iginla | 1,054 | 37 | 30 | 7 |
| Mike Modano | 1,054 | 26 | 29 | -3 |
| Guy Lafleur | 1,052 | 29 | 31 | -2 |
| Pierre Turgeon | 1,035 | 34 | 32 | 2 |
| Gilbert Perreault | 1,028 | 35 | 33 | 2 |
| Paul Coffey | 1,026 | 16 | 34 | -18 |
| Adam Oates | 1,005 | 20 | 35 | -15 |
| Evgeni Malkin | 1,000 | 36 | 36 | 0 |
| Ray Bourque | 997 | 12 | 37 | -25 |
| Patrick Kane | 994 | 38 | 38 | 0 |
| Bobby Hull | 976 | 56 | 39 | 17 |
| Norm Ullman | 966 | 45 | 40 | 5 |
| Dino Ciccarelli | 958 | 52 | 41 | 11 |
| Alex Delvecchio | 955 | 39 | 42 | -3 |
| Jean Beliveau | 951 | 46 | 43 | 3 |
| Jean Ratelle | 946 | 41 | 44 | -3 |
| Mike Bossy | 942 | 63 | 45 | 18 |
| Peter Stastny | 938 | 42 | 46 | -4 |
| Michel Goulet | 933 | 58 | 48 | 10 |
| Bernie Nicholls | 933 | 50 | 47 | 3 |
| Jeremy Roenick | 925 | 48 | 49 | -1 |
| Patrick Marleau | 921 | 53 | 50 | 3 |
| Steven Stamkos | 918 | 59 | 51 | 8 |
| Vincent Damphousse | 906 | 51 | 52 | -1 |
| Joe Nieuwendyk | 904 | 64 | 54 | 10 |
| Darryl Sittler | 904 | 65 | 55 | 10 |
| Sergei Fedorov | 904 | 55 | 53 | 2 |
| Bobby Clarke | 899 | 49 | 56 | -7 |
| Rod Brind'Amour | 891 | 54 | 57 | -3 |
| Anze Kopitar | 887 | 44 | 58 | -14 |
| Marian Hossa | 879 | 61 | 59 | 2 |
| Glenn Anderson | 861 | 67 | 60 | 7 |
| Daniel Alfredsson | 859 | 57 | 61 | -4 |
| Frank Mahovlich | 857 | 66 | 62 | 4 |
| Alexander Mogilny | 847 | 87 | 64 | 23 |
| Pat Verbeek | 847 | 77 | 63 | 14 |
| Theo Fleury | 841 | 68 | 65 | 3 |
| Keith Tkachuk | 838 | 73 | 67 | 6 |
| Bernie Federko | 838 | 62 | 66 | -4 |
| Joe Pavelski | 836 | 72 | 68 | 4 |
| Henri Richard | 824 | 80 | 71 | 9 |
| John Tavares | 824 | 78 | 70 | 8 |
| Eric Staal | 824 | 76 | 69 | 7 |
| Joe Mullen | 822 | 75 | 72 | 3 |
| Brian Bellows | 819 | 91 | 73 | 18 |
| Pat LaFontaine | 818 | 95 | 74 | 21 |
| Ray Whitney | 816 | 74 | 75 | -1 |
| Dave Taylor | 809 | 71 | 76 | -5 |
| Al MacInnis | 804 | 40 | 77 | -37 |
| Phil Housley | 799 | 43 | 78 | -35 |
| Daniel Sedin | 796 | 81 | 79 | 2 |
| Patrice Bergeron | 786 | 82 | 80 | 2 |
| Lanny McDonald | 779 | 97 | 82 | 15 |
| Alex Kovalev | 779 | 88 | 81 | 7 |
| Bobby Smith | 776 | 83 | 83 | 0 |
| Martin St. Louis | 773 | 85 | 84 | 1 |
| Steve Larmer | 772 | 96 | 85 | 11 |
| Connor McDavid | 765 | 99 | 86 | 13 |
| Patrik Elias | 763 | 90 | 87 | 3 |
| Rod Gilbert | 760 | 92 | 88 | 4 |
| Claude Giroux | 755 | 69 | 89 | -20 |
| Brian Propp | 738 | 98 | 90 | 8 |
| Dale Hunter | 727 | 93 | 91 | 2 |
| Larry Murphy | 726 | 47 | 92 | -45 |
| Doug Weight | 714 | 84 | 93 | -9 |
| Ryan Getzlaf | 710 | 94 | 94 | 0 |
| Henrik Sedin | 697 | 70 | 95 | -25 |
| Nicklas Lidstrom | 689 | 60 | 96 | -36 |
| Brian Leetch | 682 | 89 | 97 | -8 |
| Nicklas Backstrom | 671 | 86 | 98 | -12 |
| Denis Potvin | 667 | 79 | 99 | -20 |
Some quick comments:
- For the record, I don't think that primary points should be over-emphasized. I can dig up the links another time, but I've shown that secondary assists have informational value and shouldn't be discarded.
- Gretzky is (once again) in a class of his own. Howe is the only other player in NHL history to reach 1,500 primary points, and Gretzky is more than 650 points ahead of him. (Also, Gretzky has 1,324 primary assists - no other player in NHL history has even reached 800).
- Only five players on this list average more than 1 primary point per game. (This number, obviously, is highly influenced by the length of a player's career, and the scoring environment). Those players are Gretzky (1.49), Lemieux (1.47), Bossy (1.25), McDavid (1.16) and Dionne (1.03).
- Which players lose the most ground (when comparing how they rank in total points vs just primary points)? 12 players drop 10+ spots. Not surprisingly, defenseman are the most affected. Blueliners occupy the bottom four spots, and six of the bottom seven. The forwards with the biggest drops are mostly pure playmakers (H. Sedin, Giroux, Oates, Kopitar, Backstrom - the Slovenian centre being the only surprise on that list).
- Conversely, 15 players jump 10+ spots (comparing where they rank in primary vs total points). These are mostly pure goal-scorers (Bossy, both Hulls, Gartner, Verbeek, Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk - though there are some exceptions like McDavid, Mogilny and LaFontaine).
- EDIT - I didn't bother breaking ties in either of the rankings (primary or total points) - for a small number of players, the movements might be off by +/-1 spot in either direction
interesting, i didnt read your footnotes. looks like we are both looking for explanations.
i also do not think secondary assists should be treated as lesser. In fact, rather than worrying about Selke votes, lets appreciate that Kopitar, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Forsberg, Toews et al likely gathered a lot of points by way of constantly touching the puck in their own end?
